Homosexuality

[Daystar]

Italy's nominee to become the European Union's Justice and Home Affairs commissioner failed on Monday to win the backing of the European Parliament's Justice Committee, days after testifying that he considers homosexuality a sin.

The panel narrowly failed to endorse Rocco Buttiglione, who is currently Italy's European Affairs minister, said Jean-Louis Bourlanges, chairman of the Justice Committee.

Buttiglione said that he would fight for the rights of homosexuals, but would not back away from his statement that the lifestyle is sinful.

Isn't this the way it should be? Fight for the rights of homosexuals, but individuals, but define their lifestyle as sinful (Lev. 18:22).

[bernee51]

[bernee]I'm not sure what 'natural law' has to do with human sexuality.
[Day] Do you think it is a "natural" for a man to insert his organ into the rectum of another man?

It may not be for me or you but it obviously is for some people. What gives you the right to judge?

[bernee]As for "praying for me" ...why bother telling me...if it works, it should work without the object of the prayer knowing. Telling the object about it wil make no difference.
[Day] Well don't be surprised if some good things happen

If/when they do it will be in no part as a result of your god's influence nor (most likey) our prayer .

[Day] I believe the Bible is the Word of God and is profitable for doctrine, training in righteousness and correction.

I believe the bible is a collection of folk tales and legends that has some good things to say about very little. The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali offer much more comprehensive advice on right living. Have you read them?

So when it says that God hears and responds to the prayers of his children, I have to believe it.

You believe it despite the evidence that god does not answer prayer.

[Daystar]

[bernee]I'm not sure what 'natural law' has to do with human sexuality.

[Day] Do you think it is a "natural" for a man to insert his organ into the rectum of another man?

It may not be for me or you but it obviously is for some people. What gives you the right to judge?

[Day] I'm not judging anyone, but wrong behavior should be judged. Is it wrong to tell the thief that it's wrong to steal? The liar it's wrong to lie? The adulterer it's wrong to cheat on his wife? If homosexuality is sin, which God says it is, then why would it be wrong to tell a homosexual that his lifestyle is sinful?

[bernee]As for "praying for me" ...why bother telling me...if it works, it should work without the object of the prayer knowing. Telling the object about it wil make no difference.

[Day] Well don't be surprised if some good things happen

If/when they do it will be in no part as a result of your god's influence nor (most likey) our prayer .

[Day] You could be in for a big surprise

[Day] I believe the Bible is the Word of God and is profitable for doctrine, training in righteousness and correction.

I believe the bible is a collection of folk tales and legends that has some good things to say about very little.

[Day] Have you taken the time to study the Bible regularly to see if what it says isn't so?

The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali offer much more comprehensive advice on right living. Have you read them?

[Day] No, because I don't believe you need any other book than the Bible to live a happy, peaceful and prosperous life. I would be willing to wager that much in the Sutras is similar to the Bible. One thing I'm sure isn't in it is that there is a God in heaven who loves you and wants you experience that love and find fulfillment in the person of his Son Jesus Christ.

So when it says that God hears and responds to the prayers of his children, I have to believe it.

You believe it despite the evidence that god does not answer prayer.

[Day] God could very well be in the process of answering prayer right now:-) But you make the mistake of thinking that anyone can just pray whatever he wants and God should answer accordingly. That's not how it works. You must be his child before he hears you. But he will hear the prayer of a non-believer who sincerely desires to repent and find forgiveness through His Son Jesus Christ. Think about that

[Insomniac]

***

I do wonder how some heterosexuals "know" that homosexuality is a choice. What if the situation was reversed? Would heterosexuality then become a choice as well?

I know that I do not have the power to truly change my sexuality. Sure, I could go and sleep with a woman, but it's not what I would desire. If homosexuality is a choice, wouldn't heterosexuality follow that same rule?

I debated this issue with a friend of mine. He stated that what homosexuals feel "isn't actual love". Now, being that he knows only of his own emotions, how is it possible that he could make such a statement about the feelings of another? The love that one person feels (regardless of their sexuality) is not to be judged.

Some who oppose homosexuality (and the marriage of such) seem to be sheltered. Why not come out from your bubble of safety and look through the eyes of another. Just because someone has a sexuality different from their own doesn't mean that it is wrong.

Telling someone who they can marry is like telling them who they can love. I believe marriage is a basic human right and a personal, individual choice. We are allowed freedom of religion in this country, why not freedom of marriage?

The dictionary defines marriage as the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex, as husband and wife. But, it's basically whatever society decides it is. Marriage is defined by humans and subject to change by humans. It's not fair to force homosexuals (or anyone) to suffer under the outline of belief. Why should all of society follow the path of one belief, when not all trust in God? I don't find it fair for the Church to force its views on anyone. Homosexuals don't force their way of life on heterosexuals. Shouldn't they be treated with the same respect?

As humans, it is not our duty, nor our right, to judge the actions of another. Marriage should be open to anyone, regardless of sexuality, race, religion, or way of life. A person's privacy and lifestyle should be respected at all costs, as long as they are in no way inflicting harm to themselves, or anyone around them.

"A loving man and woman in a committed realtionship can marry. Dogs, no matter what their relationship, are not allowed to marry. How should society treat gays and lesbians in a committed relationship? As dogs, or as humans?"

[Jose]

It is only natural for men and women to desire each other and reproduce. It is built into us. Homosexuality perverts that natural act.

On the other hand, homosexuality is built into homosexuals. For them, it is natural for men to desire men, and for women to desire women. For them, heterosexuality perverts that natural act. Since it was God's decision (according to the Christian doctrine) to direct their embryological develop so as to have them come out homosexual, it seems only fair to allow them to live their lives as God seems to intend for them to--without the rest of us sticking our noses into their private business.

But what I want to know is why is it sinful? And what I want to know is why is it sinful? Two different questions. (And what do you mean by sinful anyway? ) . What business is it of anyone to make judgements about a person based upon their sexuality?

Sin is the breach of God's commandments. It's sinful because he said so. There are divine absolutes about what is right and what is wrong. There was a time when people were revulsed about homosexuality. But because it has "come out of the closet," it is falsely perceived that it's only another lifestyle. That is a lie from the pit of hell.

So, sin is defined by the Bible. Doesn't this require that only those who believe in the Bible are bound by this definition? Just as only those who believe in the Bible have any chance of going to hell, since for everyone else, there is no such place. The flip side, of course, is that only those who believe in the Bible have any chance of going to heaven, since for everyone else, there is no such place. In other words, the entire concept of sin is based on a set of stories that many people believe were made up by humans. The concept of "original sin" is also based on such man-made stories.

I'm not judging anyone, but wrong behavior should be judged. Is it wrong to tell the thief that it's wrong to steal? The liar it's wrong to lie? The adulterer it's wrong to cheat on his wife? If homosexuality is sin, which God says it is, then why would it be wrong to tell a homosexual that his lifestyle is sinful?

So here's the crux of the matter--determining what is wrong and what is right. Your definition appears to be "the Bible says so." But, if the Bible is man-made, then that definition becomes "some people who lived 2000 years ago are telling us what to think." So, let's try some independent thinking. What if we define "wrong" as "doing harm to others." Then, stealing is wrong, lying is wrong, and adultery is wrong (in that it may hurt the wife and disrupt the family). Homosexuality does none of these things. It's consensual, involving activities that you'll never see unless you practice voyeurism. So, who cares? It's not contagious.

[bernee51]

I'm not judging anyone,,,,

yes you are...you are judging homosexuals to be sinners and the practioners of an 'unnatural act"

If homosexuality is sin, which God says it is, then why would it be wrong to tell a homosexual that his lifestyle is sinful?

God didn't decree it to be a sin...men did. And no, you have no right to tell a homosexual that his or her lifestyle is sinful - that is being judgemental and your Christ warns against such behaviour.

Have you taken the time to study the Bible regularly to see if what it says isn't so?

yes

[bernee]The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali offer much more comprehensive advice on right living. Have you read them?

[Day] No, because I don't believe you need any other book than the Bible to live a happy, peaceful and prosperous life.

I find something rather tragic about that statement.

I would be willing to wager that much in the Sutras is similar to the Bible.

sadly, you will never know unless you decide to take responsibility for your spiritual development and look outside the monocular vision of the bible.

One thing I'm sure isn't in it is that there is a God in heaven who loves you and wants you experience that love and find fulfillment in the person of his Son Jesus Christ.

I disagree entirely with this statement. There is no (J-I-C) god, no heaven and the Jesus legend is not the only path to living a loving and fulfilling life.

That's not how it works. You must be his child before he hears you. But he will hear the prayer of a non-believer who sincerely desires to repent and find forgiveness through His Son Jesus Christ. Think about that

I've thought about that...how come all those millions of faithful who believe as you do and offered millions of prayers still got blown away by hurricanes?

[Daystar]

I'm not judging anyone,,,,

yes you are...you are judging homosexuals to be sinners and the practioners of an 'unnatural act"

[Day] There is a difference between judging and discerning. The Bible calls homosexuality a sin. I am only calling it what it is without judging the sinner.

If homosexuality is sin, which God says it is, then why would it be wrong to tell a homosexual that his lifestyle is sinful?

God didn't decree it to be a sin...men did.

[Day] I beg to differ. God calls is a sin (Lev. 18:22) You just don't believe what God says.

And no, you have no right to tell a homosexual that his or her lifestyle is sinful - that is being judgemental and your Christ warns against such behaviour.

[Day] But it 's OK to tell someone who steals that he is a thief, isn't it?

Have you taken the time to study the Bible regularly to see if what it says isn't so?

yes

[Day] You have? Great! So tell me what you think the major theme of the Bible is.

[bernee]The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali offer much more comprehensive advice on right living. Have you read them?

[Day] No, because I don't believe you need any other book than the Bible to live a happy, peaceful and prosperous life.

I find something rather tragic about that statement.

[Day] I know for sure that I have eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ. With that comes the love of God, joy and peace. What more do I need?

I would be willing to wager that much in the Sutras is similar to the Bible.

sadly, you will never know unless you decide to take responsibility for your spiritual development and look outside the monocular vision of the bible.

[Day] What do you think the Sutras offer that exceed what I have found in Christ?

One thing I'm sure isn't in it is that there is a God in heaven who loves you and wants you experience that love and find fulfillment in the person of his Son Jesus Christ.

I disagree entirely with this statement. There is no (J-I-C) god, no heaven and the Jesus legend is not the only path to living a loving and fulfilling life.

[Day] How do you know there is no God in heaven and that Jesus is only a legend. Perhaps you mean to say that you just don't believe it.

That's not how it works. You must be his child before he hears you. But he will hear the prayer of a non-believer who sincerely desires to repent and find forgiveness through His Son Jesus Christ. Think about that

I've thought about that...how come all those millions of faithful who believe as you do and offered millions of prayers still got blown away by hurricanes?

[Day] Inspite of men's prayers, God does according to his will. It doesn't mean that he doesn't hear the prayers, but in his infinite wisdom knows what is best. It 's not an easy thing to understand why God allows hurricanes, war, disease, death, destruction, etc. On hurricanes, I would say that without prayer, things would have been far worse then they were. But I do believe that there is the element of God's righteous judgment upon a sinful world. If we all got what we deserved, no one would survive. God hates sin and punishes guilty sinners (Exo. 34:6,7) But in his mercy, he has ordained repentance so that all who turn from their sins and believe in Jesus Christ, will be saved and find eternal life. Things may go real bad, but the bottom line is eternal life in heaven where there will be no more pain, suffering or death. Even if you don't believe that, you can't deny that such would be a wonderful thing beyond words. As a matter of fact, that what it says: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard. Neither has it entered the heart of men the things that God has prepared for those who love him." (1 Cor. 2:9)
Think about it. What if it's really true?

[Daystar]

It is only natural for men and women to desire each other and reproduce. It is built into us. Homosexuality perverts that natural act.

On the other hand, homosexuality is built into homosexuals. For them, it is natural for men to desire men, and for women to desire women.

[Day] Because of sin, they have been deceived into believing this. "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." (Prov. 14:12)

For them, heterosexuality perverts that natural act. Since it was God's decision (according to the Christian doctrine) to direct their embryological develop so as to have them come out homosexual, it seems only fair to allow them to live their lives as God seems to intend for them to--without the rest of us sticking our noses into their private business.

[Day] You, too, are deceived if you believe that

"Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour." (1 Pet. 5:8)

Satan knows how to tempt and deceive. YOu might say that these are his only credentials, only be they evil.

But what I want to know is why is it sinful? And what I want to know is why is it sinful? Two different questions. (And what do you mean by sinful anyway? ) . What business is it of anyone to make judgements about a person based upon their sexuality?

Sin is the breach of God's commandments. It's sinful because he said so. There are divine absolutes about what is right and what is wrong. There was a time when people were revulsed about homosexuality. But because it has "come out of the closet," it is falsely perceived that it's only another lifestyle. That is a lie from the pit of hell.

So, sin is defined by the Bible. Doesn't this require that only those who believe in the Bible are bound by this definition?

[Day] Are you exempt from the laws of speeding just because you don't believe in them?

Just as only those who believe in the Bible have any chance of going to hell, since for everyone else, there is no such place. The flip side, of course, is that only those who believe in the Bible have any chance of going to heaven, since for everyone else, there is no such place. In other words, the entire concept of sin is based on a set of stories that many people believe were made up by humans. The concept of "original sin" is also based on such man-made stories.

[Day] I don't discount that there is the element of faith. But what Jesus did on the cross and the tomb are a matter of history. Why is that cultures around the world celebrate Christmas and Easter? Are they empty celebrations? Why is it that our currency has "In God we trust" printed on it? What is the reference point of dates? 2004 means that this many years ago, Jesus Christ came into the world. Are all these just figments of the imagination?

I'm not judging anyone, but wrong behavior should be judged. Is it wrong to tell the thief that it's wrong to steal? The liar it's wrong to lie? The adulterer it's wrong to cheat on his wife? If homosexuality is sin, which God says it is, then why would it be wrong to tell a homosexual that his lifestyle is sinful?

So here's the crux of the matter--determining what is wrong and what is right. Your definition appears to be "the Bible says so."

[Day] Doesn't the law say it's wrong to lie, steal, kill, etc.

But, if the Bible is man-made, then that definition becomes "some people who lived 2000 years ago are telling us what to think." So, let's try some independent thinking. What if we define "wrong" as "doing harm to others." Then, stealing is wrong, lying is wrong, and adultery is wrong (in that it may hurt the wife and disrupt the family). Homosexuality does none of these things.

[Day] What may not be wrong in the sight of man, is wrong in the sight of God. So homosexuals sin against God when they practice their lifestyle. That civil law doesn't call it sinful is a moot point because the higher law, which has a higher consequence, is the one that should be observed.

It's consensual, involving activities that you'll never see unless you practice voyeurism. So, who cares? It's not contagious.

[Day] Homosexuals harm themselves without realizing it. Many have experienced AIDS which is judgment on their flesh (Rom. 1:27). Spiritually, they are storing up wrath for the day of judgment, as are heterosexuals who practice sex outside of marriage:

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness." (Rom. 1:18)

"Do not defile the marriage bed, for God will judge fornicatiors." (Heb. 13:4).

But the truth is, "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all come unto repentance." (2 Pet. 3:9). Jesus said, "Unless you repent, you will likewise perish." (Luke 13:3) He loves you and wants you to turn from your sins and trust in him for eternal life.

[Jose]

It is only natural for men and women to desire each other and reproduce. It is built into us. Homosexuality perverts that natural act.

On the other hand, homosexuality is built into homosexuals. For them, it is natural for men to desire men, and for women to desire women.

Because of sin, they have been deceived into believing this. "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." (Prov. 14:12)

For them, heterosexuality perverts that natural act. Since it was God's decision (according to the Christian doctrine) to direct their embryological develop so as to have them come out homosexual, it seems only fair to allow them to live their lives as God seems to intend for them to--without the rest of us sticking our noses into their private business.

You, too, are deceived if you believe that

I guess it's hard to tell when we are deceived, because it all seems so real. The question is whether it's Satan deceiving me, God deceiving me, or, perhaps, absolute faith in the stories of ancient people deceiving you...we'll never know in this life, will we? I'll take my chances, though, because my understanding is based on reading the book of God's Creation, rather than reading the word of Man, which another Man tells me is the word of God.

What seems so odd to me is why God would change the neural connections of an embryo, just to make the child come out with the natural urges of someone of the opposite sex. Does God hate these people so much that he chooses this life for them, and then makes that life really awful by declaring that his decision for them is their fault, and a sin to boot? It's easier for me to believe that the only "sin" is on the part of the ancient book-writers...but since they didn't have any other explanation, their decision is understandable.

Are you exempt from the laws of speeding just because you don't believe in them?

Not a good analogy, since I know these laws exist. Better, perhaps, to ask if you are exempt from the laws of evolution, just because you don't believe in them?

But what Jesus did on the cross and the tomb are a matter of history. Why is that cultures around the world celebrate Christmas and Easter? Are they empty celebrations? Why is it that our currency has "In God we trust" printed on it? What is the reference point of dates? 2004 means that this many years ago, Jesus Christ came into the world. Are all these just figments of the imagination?

They aren't all figments of the imagination. As you noted in the founding fathers thread, there has been a long tradition of people believing in this particular religious doctrine. Our founding fathers did; our initial currency designs reflected this, and continue to do so. Prior to scientific understanding, there really was no other way to interpret much of the natural world. Religion was it. That different cultures came up with different religions is interesting, and supports my proposal that they are all the invention of Man. Still, Christianity has been extremely powerful over the years. Christianity happened to be the religion of the major seafaring nations at the time of The Conquest, and was thus spread across the world, usually by force. It's no surprise that we use the calendar defined by this religion. But, that doesn't make it better than other religions, or more right.

On the other hand, Christmas and Easter reveal some subtlety in the early days. It's really hard to take over a country and make them abandon their traditions and celebrations. It's much easier to merge their traditions into yours--and simply transform their winter solstice celebration into Christmas, and their vernal equinox celebration into Easter. It's very clever, really.

Still, that's all a side issue for this thread. The question is homosexuality. In the tradition of one culture, it was defined as "sin." The rise of this tradition into a powerful religion, and the ability of that religion to sustain people over the millenia, has led to a general belief in our country that it is a "sin." It has led to the belief that it is a lifestyle choice. Now that we know that it is more like having blonde hair, or more like being born with a hypospadic penis (but unlike hypospadia, impossible to "correct" surgically), it seems that it's time to abandon this idea.

[TQWcS]

Jose

On the other hand, homosexuality is built into homosexuals. For them, it is natural for men to desire men, and for women to desire women. For them, heterosexuality perverts that natural act. Since it was God's decision (according to the Christian doctrine) to direct their embryological develop so as to have them come out homosexual, it seems only fair to allow them to live their lives as God seems to intend for them to--without the rest of us sticking our noses into their private business.

Oh come on Jose, I know you don't believe that. The only evidence that even remotely points to it being inborn is that they have an enlarged hypothalamus. However, one could argue that it is the lifestyle of the homosexual that causes the size of the hypothalamus to increase. The fact is that no one knows if there is a cause or if they choose it.

If by chance the tendencies are inborn then it would still be a sin to act upon them. The bible states that sexual acts are only alright in the situation that both partners are married to one another. The bible also states marriage to be between a man and a women. So acting on these tendencies is still a sin in the eyes of most Christians.

[perfessor]

Jose

On the other hand, homosexuality is built into homosexuals. For them, it is natural for men to desire men, and for women to desire women. For them, heterosexuality perverts that natural act. Since it was God's decision (according to the Christian doctrine) to direct their embryological develop so as to have them come out homosexual, it seems only fair to allow them to live their lives as God seems to intend for them to--without the rest of us sticking our noses into their private business.

Oh come on Jose, I know you don't believe that. The only evidence that even remotely points to it being inborn is that they have an enlarged hypothalamus. However, one could argue that it is the lifestyle of the homosexual that causes the size of the hypothalamus to increase. The fact is that no one knows if there is a cause or if they choose it.

Ask yourself this TQWcS: did you make a choice? I know that I didn't - at no point in my life did I feel the need to consider the options and choose between hetero- or homosexuality. In fact, I don't know of anyone who did. Why suppose that it was a choice for homosexuals? If it were, that would imply that it is a choice for everyone - and this doesn't seem to be the case. I ask you again - did you choose your sexuality???