Illegal Immigration Pt. 2

[The Persnickety Platypus]

I just have to bring this back up.

A sequel to the former topic:



Is erecting a fence across the southern border a horrible policy? Yes or yes?

Is it reasonable to demand thousands of dollars in naturalization fees from migrants fleeing $80 work weeks? No or no?

[juliod]

Is erecting a fence across the southern border a horrible policy?

No, I don't think so.

As you know, I am quite supportive of immigrants, and even like your idea of just giving citizenship to everyone who wants it.

But if we are not going to legalize immigration, we should be serious about stopping it. The worst situation is the status quo, where we have strong rhetoric against immigrants, yet tacitly allow them to fill sub-standard-wage jobs. The fascist corporations get it both ways: cheap labor and a unifying message for their xenophobic constituents.

Let's pull the troops back from Iraq, and spend 1/10 of the money we are spending there to "secure the borders".

My idea is to put up a fence on the boarder, with a 1-2 mile buffer zone filled with landmines. Lots of landmines. On the near side we will have machine gun posts every 50 yards with orders to shoot anything in the border zone. Guards will get $50 per kill ($100 for women or children) as an incentive to be vigilent. At border crossing points we will put extra thousands of troops trained to search vehicles and trains (and also at the ports). Every inch of every vehicle will be searched.

Lets get to it.

DanZ

[The Persnickety Platypus]

But if we are not going to legalize immigration, we should be serious about stopping it.

Perhaps you missed the nature of my original plan. It is actually far more radical than merely granting citizenship to anyone who wants it.

Illegal immigration is the problem. So make all immigration legal. Ta da! Problem solved.

The minute anyone steps over the border, they automatically become a citizen. There will be registration booths every few hundred miles. A Mexican enters, signs his name, exits, and promptly makes his way to the nearest Home Depot. No lessons. No fees. No bull****. Within seconds of leaving, the migrant's name is on it's way to the IRS. He automatically falls under the Fair Labor Standards Act, and is subject to all applicable state/federal taxes.

There will be no need for fences between naturalization offices. Prospective immigrants no longer have any reason to dodge them, as all the useless English/history lessons and fees have been done away with. They will not turn down a chance at becomming applicable for minimum wage.

The only problem that this plan does not solve is the incessant whining of social conservatives, who would oppose any influx of foriegners on the grounds that it "disrupts our unique culture". Such people are hopeless anyway, so we won't worry about them.

If the increasing number of intrants begins to over-saturate lower class employment, we could possibly inact something along the lines of my other plan (where the government grants hefty incentives for companies to move production into Mexico and Latin America). The economic feasibility of such a plan remains in question, but needless to say, if we can afford to sustain the forces in Iraq, we can afford just about anything.


Our current naturalization laws are prejudiced against those of humbler descent. America touts itself as the "land of opportunity", but discriminates against those whom that opportunity could benefit the most. America, it seems, is all ready an exclusive membership club. Let's not make it a gated community as well. God knows, Americans are snotty enough as it is.

[juliod]

The minute anyone steps over the border, they automatically become a citizen.

Yeah, but your plan completely fails to deal with those who wish to come to the US, but not to become a citizen. Tourists, business travellers, terrorists; those sort of people.

I think your plan has merit. But if we aren't going to do that, we need to do something else. The other thing social conservatives whine about is the porous borders. So if they reject one solution, it would be nice if they supported another.

We have the power and ability to put in place very many of the solutions that could be proposed. And we have a lot of people screeching that the current situation is... Um, I'm not sure what, but it's ruining the country, they say. I can't understand why they aren't getting behind some of the practical solutions.

DanZ

[Cathar1950]

I do not see why we just don't take Mexico and remove all the undesirables. No borders will be needed. Then Canada should also be liberated. After everone is free we can bup in place Dan's fine plan but lower bounties because after a few heads many would just retire with the wealth 25 for adults and 50 for children.
Maybe a sports hunting licence and a hunting season.
But bodies are going to be a problem. So harvest parts and the hunters would be resposible for disposing of the remains that are useless.

[Cephus]

Illegal immigration is the problem. So make all immigration legal. Ta da! Problem solved.

Which is just the stupidest thing I've ever seen.

Murder is the problem, so make all murder legal. Ta da! Problem solved.

Drunk driving is the problem, so make all drunk driving legal. Ta da! Problem solved.

Pedophilia is the problem, so make all pedophilia legal. Ta da! Problem solved.

The minute anyone steps over the border, they automatically become a citizen. There will be registration booths every few hundred miles.

I'm sure the terrorists will appreciate that.

[juliod]

Which is just the stupidest thing I've ever seen.

Nope, you've misunderstood.

Murder, drunk driving, and pedophilia are problems by themselves, regardless of whether they are legal or illegal.

Immigration, by itself, is not a problem. We make it a problem by making it illegal. I would put marijuana and cocaine in this group too.

Anyway, the point is to be one thing or the other. If you don't like PP's plan to let everyone in, what about my plan to keep all illegals out?

DanZ

[Cephus]

Which is just the stupidest thing I've ever seen.

Nope, you've misunderstood.

Murder, drunk driving, and pedophilia are problems by themselves, regardless of whether they are legal or illegal.

Immigration, by itself, is not a problem. We make it a problem by making it illegal. I would put marijuana and cocaine in this group too.

But uncontrolled immigration, in and of itself, is a problem. Just allowing anyone who feels like wandering across the border access to our social network is financial and social suicide. Who is going to pay for all of these poor people coming from Mexico or China or wherever? I've seen estimates that legalizing just the 8-12 million illegals we have now is going to cost us an average of 50 billion dollars a year.

Anyway, the point is to be one thing or the other. If you don't like PP's plan to let everyone in, what about my plan to keep all illegals out?

Your idea is rather extreme, don't you think? There are easier and more rational ways to do it.

[juliod]

Who is going to pay for all of these poor people coming from Mexico or China or wherever?

Well, they pay for themselves, don't they? They are coming here to work ("take our jobs"), that's what I hear. And since we've seen a few cases recently where companies have been raided because the social security numbers on their payroll taxes don't match up to any living person it seems that they are contributing without withdrawing.

is financial and social suicide.

You see, if this really were "suicide" or anything like it, I think we'd see people proposing something more drastic than just tinkering with the details of a system that everyone hates.

So we have PP's plan, which is to let in everyone and give them full rights immediately. Or we have my plan which is an effective one to keep them out.

I've seen estimates that legalizing just the 8-12 million illegals we have now is going to cost us an average of 50 billion dollars a year.

Yup, and no doubt they failed to count the uncompensated labor of the illegals. If we assume a savings of only $15,000 per year average for an illegal (over a legal employee) then we are talking $150 billion per year.

And if we assume that on average an illegal contributed a mere $200 in payroll taxes for which they cannot claim the related benefits, that adds up to $2 billion per year. (I take a low figure of $200 per illegal, since payroll taxes will not be paid by most companies.)

So I reckon the illegals are giving us $150 billion to businesses to reinvest (or to compensate executives) and $2 billion to the taxpayer. Even if we take the $50 billion per year in services and costs to manage the illegals it still gives us a net of $102 billion. Sweet.

DanZ

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Yeah, but your plan completely fails to deal with those who wish to come to the US, but not to become a citizen. Tourists, business travellers, terrorists; those sort of people.

*tourist approaches the naturalization clerk's desk*

"Hey, I'm not applying for citizenship, just visiting my Mexican relatives in Arizona. I'm so exited for them! Now the government has become reasonable enough as to grant them citizenship (no strings attached), they are making enough money to adequately feed the kids."

"Yes, I sure am glad they shot down that rediculous fence idea. This system has worked so well, they are talking about sending Bill Frist to a mental rehabilitation facility for ever proposing such an idiotic border control plan. He has also been under fire for blatant racism, and fear mongering over non-existant terrorists crossing our porous borders. Send your relatives my congradulations. Anyway, may I see your passport?"

*hands clerk passport*

"Thanks. Welcome to America!"

The minute anyone steps over the border, they automatically become a citizen. There will be registration booths every few hundred miles.

I'm sure the terrorists will appreciate that.

When the number of people adversely effected by terrorism in the United States (Since 2001, zero) surpasses the number of immigrants who have greatly benefitted from the opportunities America has to offer (12 million), then I will consider this.

But uncontrolled immigration, in and of itself, is a problem. Just allowing anyone who feels like wandering across the border access to our social network is financial and social suicide.

Only to those finical enough to propose closing off our borders merely on the grounds of those ominous couple of extra dollars that would otherwise be added to their annual tax code.

Who is going to pay for all of these poor people coming from Mexico or China or wherever?

Presumably, the money their employers provide them.

I've seen estimates that legalizing just the 8-12 million illegals we have now is going to cost us an average of 50 billion dollars a year.

Wow, that's almost 1/100000000000000000 of our annual military budget. We might have to cut back funding on our automomous robotic nuclear insect program.

No, do you know what is really costly? World hunger. Millions die every year from malnutrition, taking with them billions and billions of lost manpower. There is not a single politician on earth who does not recognize the vast economic benefits to be wrought from the comparatively minute investment required to feed and employ the world's starving. Strangely however, everyone seems too lazy to actually do anything about it.

Here we have an opportunity to wipe a signifigant portion of poverty stricken families off the list, and turn their manpower into something productive. The catch? There is none. All we have to do is add their name to the census, and they will do the rest.

And yet, many are still drawn to the other option; a 3,000 mile long fence.



Someone, please explain this to me. Such a mentality is beyond my comprehension.