Did Allah start Christianty?

[Burninglight]

Allah made it look like Jesus died, but he let someone die in Jesus' place to save Jesus according to the Quran. Isn't that a form of substitutionary death? This is something some Muslims tell me God doesn't do; so, I am confused about this.

The Quran states that the unbelievers plot and scheme with deception but Allah is the "best of deceivers" Some English translations state "the best of planners," in context, however, Allah does best what the unbelievers were doing which was deceiving; so, is Allah to blame for starting Christianity or did he know his deception would cause the birth of a religion that Islam could not comprehend or overcome? For instance, Christianity, IMO, has always been bigger, better and stronger than Islam and always will be!

[Burninglight]

@ Burninglight

If I were Muslim, I would ask the following: "Why do we believe the same as Christians in the virgin birth? How come we don't know why Jesus had to have been born of virgin but Christians do? Since Christians were the first to teach that Jesus was born of a virgin, why don't we accept their explanation for the virgin birth especially since none was given to us? 

Why didn't Allah show he understood that the Christian trinity consisted of the father, son and Holy Spirit instead of implying Jesus, Mary and Allah? Why do we Muslims accept contradiction and discrepancy in the Quran and rebuke Christians for the problems in the Bible when they don't claim the Bible was written by God via dictation but by men inspired by God? 

Since we and the Christians believe Jesus is the word of God, and Christians believe there is a connection to that and Him being virgin born, why don't we believe like the Christians that Jesus is eternal and uncreated? How can the word of God not be eternal and uncreated??? Why do we say we don't believe the word of God became flesh if Jesus (the word of God) was born as the son of man and Mary was His natural mother?" 

I honestly believe these are the types of question that would anger the prophet or God of Islam! I have hundreds of question like these that just come to me as I read the Quran or listen to Muslim arguments. The biggest deal to me is that Islam is a reaction to Catholicism, and they never had a true concept of Biblical Christianity. Christianity is not a reaction to any religion and it comes from fulfilling of prophecy in the OT and the NT. 

Additionally, one thing you should understand is that unlike the Quran the Bible was not written as a dictation but by men that were inspired by God and also by the testimony of witnesses. You are not going to find perfect scientific line up like it is supposed to be with the Quran but is not either. 

Just think of a group of people going to a football game. After the game they give accounts of what happened. The accounts will be different, but that doesn't mean they are not speaking truth. That is an example and brought up for illustration purposes. When I look at it this way I don't have a problem, but I would if someone said Jesus is not the son of God or he didn't really rise from the dead; then that would cause my world to turn upside down. 

Now regarding the virgin birth of Jesus being written and documented in the NT Bible first and not the OT should make you at least wonder did Islam get this from Christianity. After all Muhammad had a Christian friend who knew about the book of Matthew that speaks of Jesus' Immaculate Conception. If I were a follower of Muhammad, I would see red flags. Is it not written to obey Muhammad is to obey Allah? Is it not true you must mention or associate the name Muhammad with Allah in your shahada. Is it not true that one can infer that Muhammad and Allah had misconceptions about the trinity as I have already demonstrated? Is it not true that there was documentation already in print from Galen and Hippocrates before the Quran that gives the Quranic explanation of the birth process or embryology? 

I never said Jesus was God (the father) become flesh. I said Jesus is the word of God become flesh. Jesus is all that God is but not all there is to God. God created us in His image and likeness according to Scripture. I am a soul; I have a spirit and a body. Am I three different people? God is Spirit; He is Holy; therefore He is the Holy Spirit; Jesus is God's word Jn 1. and the Quran says he is God's word as well. God doesn't explain how His Holiness and Word are distinct persons but we know God said "This my Beloved son..." We know that Jesus is the word God used to speak all into existence. 
We know Jesus has the monopoly on all that is called God. The father is greater in office, function and position, but they are equal in nature, essence and character. Do you not take my word that in the Bible Jesus predicted His death 3 X?

The answer to your question is because the same God that sent Jesus (peace be upon him) sent Muhammad (peace be upon him) and all the other Prophets that came with the same message. It is the same God that revealed the Torah, Gospel and Quran. It is very clear from the Quran that Jesus (peace be upon him) was born from a virgin birth, God makes the position of Jesus (peace be upon him) and his mother Mary (may Allah he pleased with her) very clear.

Both Muslims and Christians agree that this was a mighty miracle and sign from God, however the difference between us and the Christian arise when we discuss why the virgin birth was done, both of us have different reasons, we as Muslims believe that one of the reasons for the virgin birth is, Allah wanted to make Jesus (peace be upon him) as a sign for man. What this basically means is that Allah wanted the virgin birth to signify a mighty miracle and mighty proof and sign of God, because such a thing was impossible and unthinkable, and that the only way that such a thing could happen is only if a divine being carried this act out.

Therefore Burninglight I would be more concerned asking myself why the earliest parts of the New Testament such as the Pauline epistles, do not mention the virgin birth, nor do the Gospels of Mark or John???

You are obviously not reading my posts if you are still insisting that Allah did not know what the Christians believe the Trinity is, the verse you quoted isn't even dealing with the trinity, there are verses of the Quran that deal with this false belief. I suggest you read my posts and get back to me addressing the issues raised. There are no contradictions in the Quran, this is false. The current day bibles have been changed by man and unless these men you claim have been inspired by God are Prophets or Messengers that were sent by God then no one has the right to change God's laws in which God already sent Jesus (peace be upon him) with. Who decides who is inspired by God man or God??? 

As for the word of God becoming flesh it is apparent from your very own scriptures that this is not possible Burninglight, so can you explain this contradiction then?? God cannot do what you claim, in fact your own book testifies to that:
 
 Num 23:19:  

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"
 
 Malachi 3:6:

 "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."
 
So your own Bible says no he cannot do that, these verses say that God is not like a man, basically what that means is that God does not share the same characteristics as us humans do in general. So those verses basically establish that God is not like a man, that he is different than us, in the way he acts and does things.
 
However so, if Jesus (peace be upon him) limited himself and so on, then this means he became like a man, he became exactly like all us humans, he ate, he slept, he cried, and finally he died. This totally contradicts the OT as it says God is not like a man, meaning God does not eat, does not sleep, nor does he die. The fact That Jesus (peace be upon him) became like a man ( not became a man),  proves he cannot be God since the God is not like a man and never will, he is above what Christians attribute to Him, the All-Mighty. There is no correlation between the virgin birth and God's word becoming  flesh.

Therefore these types of questions have already been answered in the Quran, as God has already conveyed to us the falseness of what Christians have created from the real teachings of Jesus (peace be upon him). The Quran confirms what came before it and speaks of where the Jews and Christians went wrong in their beliefs. 

Burninglight this idea the entire Bible, OT and NT are all inspired books of God, and revelations from God and so is a false claim. When one reads the Gospel of Luke, we see that this book is not revealed by God unto Luke, nor inspired by God neither. The very first chapter and verses of the Gospel of Luke show us that this book is not inspired, nor revealed by God, as Luke himself said:

Luke 1

"For as much as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,  2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;  3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,  4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

As we can see, Luke is not inspired by God nor receives any revelations from God, Luke simply says that it will be good for him to also write an account of things that happened, the things which are believed among the people. Also Luke writes this Gospel simply for a man named Theophilus so that he believes in these things. So basically the Gospel of Luke was written addressed to one man, and simply a work of collecting quotes, and information from eye-witness accounts.

So one must ask how in the world is the Gospel of Luke an inspiration and revelation from God? 

Different accounts of the same thing would be accepted provided there is legitimate proof for this however when their are conflicting accounts and totally different accounts then this need be rejected this is the case with Christianity too many conflicting accounts and no evidence that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God's son or that he rose from the dead. 

No red flags here!!! The God of the Gospel is the same God of the Quran, if we as Muslims copied the virgin birth as you claim then why would we claim the same God revealed the Gospel. One would think that we would dent such a thing, furthermore you are wrong in saying the Quran says:

"to obey Muhammad is to obey Allah"

In the contrary it says:

QURAN: 3:32

"Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger......"

As for the Shahada, can you point out the association??

The English translation is :

“I bear witness that there is no deity (none truly to be worshipped) but, Allah, and I bear witness that Mohammad is the messenger of Allah.�

This is in fact rejecting any form of association by making it clear that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is only a Messenger of God and that there is no other worthy of worship but Allah.

As for Galen and Hippocrates I am happy to have a detailed discussion on this topic proving that what the Quran describes of embryology was not mentioned in any book prior to the Quran.

Trinitarian Christians always seem to maintain that Genesis 1:26-27 and are prooftexts of an alleged tri-unity god, but this claim is false. When one examines the bible it will become clear that the image and likeness that are mentioned in Genesis 1:26-27 are nothing but metaphoric speech!

Moreover your "I am a soul; I have a spirit and a body" analogy isn't going to work, here is 
 is the problem, Christians say that each person in the Trinity is God, remember Christians say Jesus (peace be upon him) is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is also God. So therefore using the Christian Trinity doctrine, that would basically mean that the husband is a family, the wife is a family, and the son is also a family!!!!!!! In a family we say that the husband wife and son MAKE UP A FAMILLY, we do not say that each specific member of the family is the family!

More to the point the use of "Son of God" in ancient times meant no more than a righteous Servant and Chosen one of GOD Almighty, this does not mean anything!, hence I cannot take the word of the bible as truth as what is truth and falsehood is not apparent due to many changed and abrogations.

Jesus was never considered a messenger in the Bible; He is the message. You can consider Him a prophet but that is not all He was and is. He is the I am before Abraham no other prophet can makes such a claim. God didn't have to make Jesus virgin born to prove His power. We know looking at the heavens and at a normal human birth. Besides the Quran doesn't state a reason for what it borrowed from Christianity but the Bible explains the truth about Jesus.

Hali: I am sorry but it is you who is not reading my posts again I never said Jesus was God (the father) become flesh. I never said Jesus is God the father; I never said that God the father was the son and I never said the Holy Spirit was Jesus or the father and I never said that Jesus wasn’t the son of man or a true man. I said Jesus is the word of God become flesh (Flesh means man). Jesus is all that God is but not all there is to God. God created us in His image and likeness according to Scripture works for me. I am a soul; I have a spirit and a body. Am I three different people? God is Spirit; He is Holy; therefore He is the Holy Spirit; Jesus is God's word Jn 1. and the Quran says he is God's word as well. God doesn't explain how His Holiness and Word are distinct persons but we know God said "This is my Beloved son..." We know that Jesus is the word God used to speak all into existence. Now you say that Jesus is not the word of God spoken of in the Quran and the Bible who became flesh. If Jesus wasn’t in flesh what was He in? Lol, you don’t even believe your Quran.

Again, we know the father God is greater in office, function and position, but they are equal in nature, essence and character. I find a discrepancy with the Quran or you should at least be able to admit it is something that can be considered one very easily. Allah has left a weakness in his recitations. There is no doubt. You only have denial, conjecture, ignorance and deception to rely on in this matter. Don’t bring up Bible difficulties. That cannot save you or make your points on the Quran. The Bible was written by men inspired by God; therefore, it is truth written as men sees it, but the Quran is written directly from the way your god sees it, and he borrowed concepts from Christianity imperfectly and had grave misconceptions of the trinity.

In today’s age, you don't have to be a Christian to infer intelligently and very easily that Allah and Muhammad had grave misconceptions of the Christian trinity and imperfectly borrowed from Christian concepts. You can tell what someone knows by the questions they ask and the comments they make.

As I stated, I know the Quran attacks a trinity, but it doesn't attack the Christian trinity as Christians understood and understand Him to be, because no Christians ever considered Jesus, Mary and Allah the trinity ever. No Muslim can proof that Allah didn’t unequivocally allude to or imply that the Christian trinity wasn’t Jesus, Mary and himself by the way he questions Jesus. Allah didn’t say did you say to worship Mary he said “take her for a god.� Some English translations of the Quran are dishonestly translating that verse of the Quran so as to hide the discrepancy but that only serves to prove that Muslim scholars are aware and embarrassed by it.

I say she was never an object of worship in true Christianity only in Catholicism, but even they, never considered her a god; so Allah and Muhammad got it wrong no matter how you twist and turn it.

You can tell what a person believes and knows by the things he says, doesn’t say and the questions he asks. Allah will ask Jesus, “Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?� This question proves ignorance, uncertainty, and distrust. You mean Allah doesn’t know what Jesus said? This proves that Allah was reacting to an imperfect understanding of Christianity and the Christian trinity.

Allah did not know that the Holy Spirit in Christianity was and is the third person of God’s tri unity and not himself, lol, a child with a 4th grade reading level can make this inference. No one said Allah said explicitly that Jesus, Mary and himself are the Christian trinity, but he didn’t have to for us to know what he meant. We know by his question to Jesus. There is no burden of proof on Christians to prove this. Someone only needs common sense to see the obvious. Lol, ask the atheists interested in religion and they'll tell you the same thing.

No Christian is a Christian unless he believes God is one!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[HaLi8993]

@ Burninglight

Jesus was never considered a messenger in the Bible; He is the message. You can consider Him a prophet but that is not all He was and is. He is the I am before Abraham no other prophet can makes such a claim. God didn't have to make Jesus virgin born to prove His power. We know looking at the heavens and at a normal human birth. Besides the Quran doesn't state a reason for what it borrowed from Christianity but the Bible explains the truth about Jesus. 

Hali: I am sorry but it is you who is not reading my posts again I never said Jesus was God (the father) become flesh. I never said Jesus is God the father; I never said that God the father was the son and I never said the Holy Spirit was Jesus or the father and I never said that Jesus wasn’t the son of man or a true man. I said Jesus is the word of God become flesh (Flesh means man). Jesus is all that God is but not all there is to God. God created us in His image and likeness according to Scripture works for me. I am a soul; I have a spirit and a body. Am I three different people? God is Spirit; He is Holy; therefore He is the Holy Spirit; Jesus is God's word Jn 1. and the Quran says he is God's word as well. God doesn't explain how His Holiness and Word are distinct persons but we know God said "This is my Beloved son..." We know that Jesus is the word God used to speak all into existence. Now you say that Jesus is not the word of God spoken of in the Quran and the Bible who became flesh. If Jesus wasn’t in flesh what was He in? Lol, you don’t even believe your Quran. 

Again, we know the father God is greater in office, function and position, but they are equal in nature, essence and character. I find a discrepancy with the Quran or you should at least be able to admit it is something that can be considered one very easily. Allah has left a weakness in his recitations. There is no doubt. You only have denial, conjecture, ignorance and deception to rely on in this matter. Don’t bring up Bible difficulties. That cannot save you or make your points on the Quran. The Bible was written by men inspired by God; therefore, it is truth written as men sees it, but the Quran is written directly from the way your god sees it, and he borrowed concepts from Christianity imperfectly and had grave misconceptions of the trinity. 

In today’s age, you don't have to be a Christian to infer intelligently and very easily that Allah and Muhammad had grave misconceptions of the Christian trinity and imperfectly borrowed from Christian concepts. You can tell what someone knows by the questions they ask and the comments they make. 

As I stated, I know the Quran attacks a trinity, but it doesn't attack the Christian trinity as Christians understood and understand Him to be, because no Christians ever considered Jesus, Mary and Allah the trinity ever. No Muslim can proof that Allah didn’t unequivocally allude to or imply that the Christian trinity wasn’t Jesus, Mary and himself by the way he questions Jesus. Allah didn’t say did you say to worship Mary he said “take her for a god.� Some English translations of the Quran are dishonestly translating that verse of the Quran so as to hide the discrepancy but that only serves to prove that Muslim scholars are aware and embarrassed by it. 

I say she was never an object of worship in true Christianity only in Catholicism, but even they, never considered her a god; so Allah and Muhammad got it wrong no matter how you twist and turn it. 

You can tell what a person believes and knows by the things he says, doesn’t say and the questions he asks. Allah will ask Jesus, “Did you say take you and your mother for two gods besides me?� This question proves ignorance, uncertainty, and distrust. You mean Allah doesn’t know what Jesus said? This proves that Allah was reacting to an imperfect understanding of Christianity and the Christian trinity. 

Allah did not know that the Holy Spirit in Christianity was and is the third person of God’s tri unity and not himself, lol, a child with a 4th grade reading level can make this inference. No one said Allah said explicitly that Jesus, Mary and himself are the Christian trinity, but he didn’t have to for us to know what he meant. We know by his question to Jesus. There is no burden of proof on Christians to prove this. Someone only needs common sense to see the obvious. Lol, ask the atheists interested in religion and they'll tell you the same thing. 

No Christian is a Christian unless he believes God is one!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The bible Burninglight is not the original Gospel we all know this, but even if we were to take what is written in the bible, we will find passages that deal with the exact position of Jesus (peace be upon him) The one whom God has sent speaks the words of God. For Instance:

John 3:34  

"For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him]."

The fact is this verse makes it even more solid to the fact that Jesus (peace be upon him) was just a messenger, if someone is God as Christians believe then they cannot be referred to like that, being sent and speaking the words of God. Jesus (peace be upon him) himself said everything he speaks is not his. So the fact is everything Jesus (peace be upon him) said, taught and so on were not his own words as he himself stated:
 
John 14:24  

"He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."
 
John 7:16 

"Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me."
 
John 8:26  

"I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him."
 
John 12:49  

"For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak."
 
So those verses make it crystal clear that everything he said, everything he spoke was not of his own but of the one who sent him, which is the Father. So hence Jesus (peace be upon him) did not even say things of his own! This is further proof that he is indeed a prophet, every prophet speaks what God tells them to speak, Jesus (peace be upon him) is no exception to this rule. So hence we see the sent ones speak the words of God, Jesus (peace be upon him) is the sent one, and he speaks the words of God, he does not speak of his own words as we clearly see in those verses. Therefore Jesus (peace be upon him) is a Messenger of God.

Moving along there is ample  proof from the Greek language that Jesus (peace be upon him) did not say "I AM".  He rather said, "I HAVE (seen Abraham before he was even born)". The context of Jesus' statement is clearly about whether or not he saw Abraham. Christians can not get away with this excuse!

One of the miracles of Jesus (peace be upon him) was that he was born from a virgin birth, this cannot be isolated from all the other miracles in which God had sent previous Prophets and Messengers, the ultimate truth regarding Jesus (peace be upon him) can be found in the Quran which confirms what the Christians and Jews have done with the truth that is written in their own scriptures. It is clear from the Quran that Jesus (peace be upon him) and Mary (peace be upon her) were a sign for the worlds:

Quran 21:91

"And [mention] the one who guarded her chastity, so We blew into her [garment] through Our angel [Gabriel], and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds."

Its funny how you detextualise things Burniglight, according to Christians Jesus (peace be upon him) is the son, father and holy spirit, the most obvious internal contradiction is how there can be three persons of God in any meaningful sense and yet there be only one God, care to explain?? If you were reading my posts properly you wouldn't be repeating yourself on numerous occasions.

If the trinity concept was indeed real then you would need to prove that the old Testament is in compliant with this teaching, you will not find this anywhere at all in the OT, furthermore if we are to take what is written in the Gospel of John there would be many problems, one being that John 1:1 is assumed that Jesus (peace be upon him) was the "word" and since the word was God and became flesh according to you, then this cannot be used as any evidence, as this statement that John reproduced in his gospel was uttered not by John but by A Philo of Alexandria, years before Jesus (peace be upon him) or John were born. It is therefore completely unlikely that Philo was even remotely referring to Jesus (peace be upon him).

They are certainly not the same in essence, nature or character this again is nothing but untrue, it is clear that even in the Bible, every single thing Jesus (peace be upon him) had was from the father, from miracles to words he said. The father is greater than Jesus (peace be upon him)  in every aspect, the term greater could also refer to being greater in essence and nature, being better and so on this does not in any sense mean that they share the same character essence or nature. No one can share in these qualities!! God is above his creation and of man which Jesus (peace be upon him) was, hence God is Greater in all aspects:

Exd 18:11 "Now I know that the LORD [is] greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly [he was] above them."
 
Job 33:12 "Behold, [in] this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man."
 
Jhn 4:12 "Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?"

Therefore the Quran Burniglight is perfect in all aspects including it's content being from God whom we want it to be from and not by "inspired men" that make up their own concepts something in which you still have not been able to prove (how they were inspired). The Quran confirms what was before it and deals with this made up trinity concept perfectly, therefore I suggest you have a look at the history of the trinity and research for yourself how it all started. It is obvious by the statements you make where by you say that the Quran did not understand the trinity that you have not understood the Quran at all, because the verse you use to justify what you say is not even remotely dealing with the trinity as proven.

QURAN

"He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel."

"Those to whom We gave the Scripture know him as they know their own sons. But indeed, a party of them conceal the truth while they know [it]."

The Quran is precise in what it says about the trinity, you will not find anywhere in the Quran that states the trinity is Allah, Mary and Jesus (peace be upon him) this is something you have just made up, I would like you to even attempt to prove this by using the meaning of the verse in question by using our Tafsir. No where in the Quran is such a statement made! Why would Muslim scholars try to hide something that the Quran doesn't even say??? The very fact that there are Christians that worship Mary has already been proven. Let's be honest with ourselves here Catholics worship Mary, and look to her as a God, I mean they put their salvation in Mary! Giving her the status of God.

Therefore the Quran is not wrong in any way as it makes sure it condemns all forms of blasphemy, there are lots of Catholics and there have been a lot of Mary worshippers throughout history so this is not a minor issue, this is something widely practiced.

As stated time and time again, Allah will ask Jesus (peace be upon him) on the day of Resurrection to confirm the true message in which Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent with, he will on that day be a witness against those that worshipped him and his mother as god, as Christians do today. The verse is very clear. A fourth grader would understand that he cannot make assumptions of the text without referring it to it's meaning, which clearly explain the meaning of the verse, a fourth grader would also recognize that three can never be one.

A guess a Christian can't call himself a Christian then because judging by their actions and beliefs they do not believe God is One!!!!