Of faith

[lifeisboring]

I was just curious about this.

In Islam, Muhammad (not too sure), just woke up and says he saw God, or Allah. He began preaching and soon many people were following him.

But how does the people know if he's lying or not? What were the chances that people would believe you if you just said you saw God?

[Dilettante]

Both Islam and Christianity aspire to become the universal faith. Judaism does not.
Christianity acknowledges the separation of Church and State. But Islam does not.
For the above reasons, it is not surprising that religious conflict should arise at different times.
Unfortunately I do not think there's a surefire way to avoid such conflicts now or in the future.
No, on second thoughts, there are three surefire ways: the first involves the conversion of all Christians to Islam; the second, the conversion of all Muslims to Christianity; and the third alternative is obviously that they all become atheists.
Now seriously, any monotheistic religion, especially if it has universalist aspirations, will find it hard to tolerate other faiths. I'm sorry to contradict you, bernee, but intolerance (rather than tolerance) of unbelievers, infidels, and polytheists seems to be implicit in the Koran.

And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods
with God wherever you shall find them; and seize them, besiege them,
and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert,
and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their
way. 9:5

Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as
believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God
and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the
truth. 9:29

O Believers! Take not the Jews or Christians as friends. They are
but one another's friends. If any one of you takes them for his
friends, he surely is one of them! 5:56

Believers! wage war against such of the infidels as are your neighbors, and let them find you rigorous. 9:124

Magus asks a very good question here:

And yet, modern Christianity and modern Judaism have turned out to be relatively tolerant of other faiths. I wonder why this is?

I wonder, too. It may have something to do with the Enlightenment. Although far from perfect, both Christianity and Judaism underwent such a process of revision in different centuries. Is there a Muslim Enlightenment underway? Are the moderate Muslims going to prevail over the radicals? Who knows? I am of the opinion that no one can predict the future, not even prophets.

[Arthra]

Most modern states today in Europe are actually secular and maybe Christian in name only... but consider where these states were a few hundred years ago and you'll find most all of them had established church state relations with the established church dominating...


In terms of "built in tolerance" I think it is implicit in Islam that Christianity and Judaism were tolerated as they were given a Dhimmi status which meant as long as they did not try to proselytize Muslims they could continue to exist in the Muslim community and be protected ... They paid a fee for this through the Jizya tax.

The history of Europe tells us that Muslims were not tolerated in say Spain or any other country..and Jews found greater tolerance in many Muslim lands than in Europe.

In Iran today Jews Christians and Zoroastrians are 'tolerated' but Baha'i are not...Baha'is have no legal staus whatsoever.

Tolerance is not acceptance of others but rather implies a distance and often subordinate status but in it's time I think Islam historically showed tolerance to Judaism and Christianity.

As far as polytheism Islam "tolerated" Hinduism under the Mogul dynasty in India.

We shouldn't confuse either the issue of warfare stipulated in the Qur'an which permitted defensive warfare and certain kinds of treatment of prisoners with the issue of how Christians and Jews were treated in the Umma or Muslim community, these are separate issues and should be seen in proper historical contexts.

- Art

[benmaarof]

I was just curious about this.

In Islam, Muhammad (not too sure), just woke up and says he saw God, or Allah. He began preaching and soon many people were following him.

But how does the people know if he's lying or not? What were the chances that people would believe you if you just said you saw God?

I'm a Muslims and this is news to me.

Please take this this from a Muslim.

There's none of us that has ever claimed that the Prophet Muhammad ever saw God.

You've probably received the wrong information. Please check your sources again.

Quran 6:103 No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things.

[benmaarof]

Both Islam and Christianity aspire to become the universal faith. Judaism does not.
Christianity acknowledges the separation of Church and State. But Islam does not.
For the above reasons, it is not surprising that religious conflict should arise at different times.
Unfortunately I do not think there's a surefire way to avoid such conflicts now or in the future.
No, on second thoughts, there are three surefire ways: the first involves the conversion of all Christians to Islam; the second, the conversion of all Muslims to Christianity; and the third alternative is obviously that they all become atheists.
Now seriously, any monotheistic religion, especially if it has universalist aspirations, will find it hard to tolerate other faiths. I'm sorry to contradict you, bernee, but intolerance (rather than tolerance) of unbelievers, infidels, and polytheists seems to be implicit in the Koran.

And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods
with God wherever you shall find them; and seize them, besiege them,
and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert,
and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their
way. 9:5

Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as
believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God
and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the
truth. 9:29

O Believers! Take not the Jews or Christians as friends. They are
but one another's friends. If any one of you takes them for his
friends, he surely is one of them! 5:56

Believers! wage war against such of the infidels as are your neighbors, and let them find you rigorous. 9:124

Magus asks a very good question here:

And yet, modern Christianity and modern Judaism have turned out to be relatively tolerant of other faiths. I wonder why this is?

I wonder, too. It may have something to do with the Enlightenment. Although far from perfect, both Christianity and Judaism underwent such a process of revision in different centuries. Is there a Muslim Enlightenment underway? Are the moderate Muslims going to prevail over the radicals? Who knows? I am of the opinion that no one can predict the future, not even prophets.

It seems you deliberately ommited out a few passages. You know, that's called propaganda.

Quran
2:190 Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors.

2:191 And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight yo u, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

2:192 But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

2:193 And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

Here's how God commands Muslims to preach to the non-muslims

Quran 002.256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the mosttrustworthy hand- hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things.

Quran 016.125 Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.

[benmaarof]

Believers! wage war against such of the infidels as are your neighbors, and let them find you rigorous. 9:124

Another propaganda. Why don't you put it in context?

9:122 Nor should the Believers all go forth together: if a contingent from every expedition remained behind, they could devote themselves to studies in religion, and admonish the people when they return to them,- that thus they (may learn) to guard themselves (against evil).

9:123 O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that God is with those who fear Him.

9:124 Whenever there cometh down a sura, some of them say: "Which of you has had His faith increased by it?" Yea, those who believe,- their faith is increased and they do rejoice.

God was commanding the Muslims who's already on the field of battle to be firm and rigourous. Not to initiate the battle in the first place without provocation.

[benmaarof]

O Believers! Take not the Jews or Christians as friends. They are
but one another's friends. If any one of you takes them for his
friends, he surely is one of them! 5:56

Please recheck your sources again. We all don't want to fall into the propaganda trap, do we?

Here's the passage in context from 3 different translation.

Quran
005.055
YUSUFALI: Your (real) friends are (no less than) God, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).
PICKTHAL: Your guardian can be only God; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poordue, and bow down (in prayer).
SHAKIR: Only God is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

005.056
YUSUFALI: As to those who turn (for friendship) to God, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- it is the fellowship of God that must certainly triumph.
PICKTHAL: And whoso taketh God and His messenger and those who believe for guardian (will know that), lo! the party of God, they are the victorious.
SHAKIR: And whoever takes God and His messenger and those who believe for a guardian, then surely the party of God are they that shall be triumphant.

005.057
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye God, if ye have faith (indeed).
PICKTHAL: O Ye who believe! Choose not for guardians such of those who received the Scripture before you, and of the disbelievers, as make a jest and sport of your religion. But keep your duty to God if ye are true believers.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take for guardians those who take your religion for a mockery and a joke, from among those who were given the Book before you and the unbelievers; and be careful of (your duty to) God if you are believers.

[unprofitable servant]

Deut 18
20But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

21And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

22When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Did what the prophet speak in the name of the LORD come true?
Reading the Qu'ran I find that it is not the Prohet speaking but being spoken to.

So was the one who brought the message to the Prophet true and can we believe what he rehearsed to the prophet?

According to the above scripture we can look at one prophetic word spoken to the prophet(I don't have my Book so this is by memory)
The Spirit said 'Look how they divide their religion into sects"
So ask since we know that the Prophet died in the year 632ad were the christians religion divided then? are they today?
But not the christians only but Islam also. Did not Islam begin to divide after the death of the Prophet and is it not divide into sects today?

22When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Another sura says 'There will be thos who take a portion of the Book and cast the other behind their back' Is this not true?
Among Christians the "OT" is barely used except for their on purposes?
Among Islam portions of the Qu'ran are not used or remembered or used but is cast behind their backs for the Hadith, ehen the Spirit told the Prophet 'You are not a manager of their affairs."

the Qu'ran is not filled with prophesies as "that which was revealed before"
but is filled with 'dark sayings' and similitudes' "a plain warner for those who believe'

Lastly 20But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

The Spirit sent to the Prophet did not speak of another god nor teaches to follow another god, but as He recited to the Prophet"the message sent down to you in the ARABIC speech"

So instead of the english word god we get the ARABIC word for god ALLAH. Still no going after other gods.

[SeekingTheTruth]

[quote="bernee51"][quote="Qazwa"]
First a messenger from God must have knowledge of the future. He should be able to perform miracles by God's will. A messenger of God must produce a message or book or bring to light a message. He must have been mentioned by previous messengers. Not necessarily by name. Last but not least he must have been born at or before the time of Muhammad(peace be upon him).

This does not make sense at all to me. There are many people who have the power to look into the future. Astrologists (stars is the word of G-d),
people who use black magic and witchcraft, and also alot of big rabbis (kabbalistics, and even people who have a great knowledge of The Torah.
I'm pretty sure Islams believe that the Torah is from G-d. There is a name of G-d 46 or 72 letters long, I am not sure which amount, but none-the-less, when uttered with a decree ( i.e. to fly ) that decree is answered.
This is off the topic but I learned that is how Jesus performed his miracles, he used G-ds name.
Their are also a lot of people who can perform miracles but they do not claim to be a prophet.
And providing a text, anyone can do that.
I am not saying that Muhammad was not a prophet I haven't learned the Qaran but those qualifications just doesn't cut it.

[SeekingTheTruth]

O Believers! Take not the Jews or Christians as friends. They are
but one another's friends. If any one of you takes them for his
friends, he surely is one of them! 5:56

Is that a quote from the Qaran?
What kind of G-d would decree something like this.
The G-d of Abraham?
Jews come from Abraham(Issac), Christians come from Abraham(Esau),
and Islam come form Abraham(Yishmael).
Are you trying to say that G-d decreed not for brothers to get along?

[SeekingTheTruth]

O Believers! Take not the Jews or Christians as friends. They are
but one another's friends. If any one of you takes them for his
friends, he surely is one of them! 5:56

Is that a quote from the Qaran?
What kind of G-d would decree something like this.
The G-d of Abraham?
Jews come from Abraham(Issac), Christians come from Abraham(Esau),
and Islam come form Abraham(Yishmael).
Are you trying to say that G-d decreed not for brothers to get along?