Using logic and reason to oppose abortion...

[questioner4]

Okay, even though I've been questioning my faith for over a year, I am still firmly pro-life - although I believe 'traditional' pro-lifers go about it the wrong way. I believe thast abortion is wrong, because I oppose discrimination on all grounds. I believe it is being discriminatory to deny basic human rights to the smallest humans, simply because they are still dependant on the mother. It really would be nice to hear people oppose abortion on grounds other than the Bible.

Anyway, what do you guys think? Are you a 'non-traditional pro-lifer'? If you are Christian and pro-life, can you think of any non-Biblical reasons to oppose abortion?

[Wyvern]

I think you are underestimating the right of Christian, Jewish and Islamic Holy men like myself and a few others in the world to make their own laws for themselves and their people. I'm a Christian Father and no other man on earth may lawfully kill my unborn children without my consent. The same goes for any other Christian, Jewish or Islamic Father. No one has the right to kill the unborn children of religious marriages. Who do you think you are, anyway - God? You probably don't even have any authority over your own wife - so who are you to tell Christian, Jewish and Muslim men what rights they have?

What don't buddhists or hindu count anymore? I couldn't help but be reminded of Jonestown, the branch davidians, the manson family et.al.

Rights are religious constructs. They don't exist in a natural vacuum.
No religion = no rights. (Other than those a religious society grants you, by the grace of God)

So then by your logic if someone had no religion they would have no rights which is blatantly false

Since the concept of legal rights is nothing but an idea, and all ideas are metaphysical, religious or philosophical in nature, the basic concept and idea of 'law' is fundamentally religious, metaphysical or philosophical in nature. Physicist don't observe the laws of physics. They only observe physical molecules and atoms, and 'discover' the intelligently designed metaphysical and spiritual laws which govern matter.

You know you could have just said philosophical since both religion and metaphysics are branches of philosophy

In that case, Christians being in the majority, will decide what is right, and atheists will have no more rights than Christian "society' gives them.

And vice versa, they tried this a while ago it was called the moral majority and look what happened to that

That's for sure, and that's why Christians, Jews and Muslims don't pay any attention to your so-called "society" and it's so-called 'social' rights

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People of a religious faith have no choice but to pay attention to society especially the one they live in. Look at the ongoing protests in various muslim countries over some danish cartoons that where published nearly a half year ago.

Neither your "society" nor secular socialists have any power to grant 'rights' to Christians, Jews and Muslims. We already have our rights engraved, enshrined and guaranteed in our Holy Books and in the US Con. It is secularists who don't have any rights other than the few created for them in our Holy Books and the USC

Of course society has the power to grant rights, the people of a country collectively give that power to a government, which then assures(or at least attempts to)that an individuals rights aren't trod upon. Hmm religious folk have their rights stated in various holy books and the USC, secularists have their rights stated in various holy books and the USC do you see any commonalities here? I know you want to see the differences.

[McCulloch]

That will leave secular medical experts and judges in the unenviable position of deciding whether it is in their best interests to continue killing Christian, Jewish and Muslim children before they are born.

Any woman who holds the belief that abortion is morally wrong, under our laws, is not forced against her will be have abortions. The whole pro-choice thing is that the woman, with medical advice, should have the choice about what happens to her body. No medical expert or judge is in the unenviable position of deciding to end a pregnancy. They may be in the unenviable position of deciding whether it is appropriate to comply with a specific woman's request to end a pregnancy, but the decision is the woman's.
There are no Christian or Muslim children. There is no Christian gene. There may be children of Christian or Muslim parents, but no one is born Christian or Muslim.

[Cephus]

On the other hand, neither society nor the SCOTUS have the right to grant abortion rights to women alone, (sex, gender and marital discrimination) or to license medical doctors to kill the wanted children of married Christian, Jewish and Islamic Fathers. As a matter of fact, neither your "society" nor the SCOTUS can grant any religious people 'rights' which their God has already given them. All the SCOTUS can do is unconstitutionally strike down and deny rights which the original states and their citizens religiously claimed for themselves.

That's complete bull. Not only can society grant abortion rights, they *DID*! You might not like that fact, but that's life.

I've no problem with secular or atheistic medical doctors performing abortions on their wives and daughters - as long as they keep their blood-stained and contaminated hands off Christian, Jewish and Muslim babies.

Then tell your Christian, Jewish and Muslim pregnant women not to get abortions. Nobody is scooping them up off the street and forcing it on them, they're the ones making the appointments and paying to have the procedure done.

Or maybe you didn't think of that?

[jcrawford]

So then by your logic if someone had no religion they would have no rights which is blatantly false.

No. They would have the rights which the religious society gave them. Same as religious people have the rights which secularists give them.

People of a religious faith have no choice but to pay attention to society especially the one they live in. Look at the ongoing protests in various muslim countries over some danish cartoons that where published nearly a half year ago.

Yes, we are watching that culture clash closely and learning that secularists don't have all the rights and power they think they do and that religious people do have more rights and power than they thought they did. That's why we are now free to exercise our religious rights in politics in addition to our rights to free speech. I can now call the Mayor of New York City Bloody Bloomberg because his hands are dripping with the blood of millions of Christian, Jewish and Muslim babies who were butchered in their Christian, Jewish and Muslim mother's wombs before their Christian, Jewish and Muslims Fathers were notified or asked for their consent. Unfortunately for them, the secular lawyers and judges won't give Christian, Jewish and Muslim Fathers the political right to sue the hell out of secular medical doctors who kill their unborn Christian, Jewish and Muslim children in their Christian, Jewish and Muslim mother's wombs befor they were even notified of the premeditated slaughter.

Of course society has the power to grant rights, the people of a country collectively give that power to a government, which then assures(or at least attempts to)that an individuals rights aren't trod upon.

Your society doesn't have any right to authorize the medical killing of wanted Christian, Jewish and Muslim children before they are born or their Christian, Jewish or Muslim Fathers are notified that secular medical doctors are killing their children in their mother's wombs. Secular advocates of abortion rights for women only have the blood of Christian, Jewish and Muslim babies their hands, especially male secularists like Bloody Bill Clinton and Bloody Bloomberg. They will eventually be held accountable for their crimes against Christian, Jewish and Muslim families in America.

[jcrawford]

There is something wrong with the way this website is programmed. One logs in and spends 30 or 40 minutes typing a reply to a post and the program then informs one that they are not logged in and when they again log in, they lose their 30 or 40 minute reply, even though it doesn't take up more than a page.

This is very discouraging and may motivate some posters to migrate to other websites which offer posters unlimited time in which to type up their reply to another post.

If there is a 10, 20 or 30 minute time limit being imposed on posters without their knowledge, then they are forced to respond to a lengthy post in bits and pieces.

In the future, I shall only reply to one sentence or paragraph of a post at a time, since I don't have 30 or 40 minutes to waste replying to a post and then told to log in again after I already have and the login register itself says that I am logged in.

[jcrawford]

Any woman who holds the belief that abortion is morally wrong, under our laws, is not forced against her will be have abortions.

That point is irrelevant to the argument which I am making in favor of having Christian, Jewish and Muslim Fathers informed before their Christian, Jewish or Muslim babies are killed by secular medical doctors before they are born.

[McCulloch]

Any woman who holds the belief that abortion is morally wrong, under our laws, is not forced against her will be have abortions.

That point is irrelevant to the argument which I am making in favor of having Christian, Jewish and Muslim Fathers informed before their Christian, Jewish or Muslim babies are killed by secular medical doctors before they are born.

I am not quite clear on what you are asking for. You seem to be asking that men who believe in specific religions be granted certain rights with regard to certain pregnancies.
If you would answer these three questions, it would help me to understand your position better.

1. What rights? Are you asking that the fathers be simply informed, prior to the abortion? Or are you asking that the fathers approval be obtained prior to the abortion?
2. Which pregnancies? Obviously you wish to include the pregnancies which are the result of sex within marriage. What about other pregnancies where a person of the specific named religions is the father? Where the pregnancy is the result of adultery, rape, incest or unmarried sex and the father is a Christian, Jew or Muslim, do you believe that the father should have the rights you describe? What about if the wife of a Christian, Jew or Muslim gets pregnant and the father is not a Christian, Jew or Muslim? Should these rights be extended to a Christian, Jewish or Islamic father when the mother is not of those faiths?
3. Which faiths? Are you implying that the three specific religions be treated differently under law? What about Sikhs? Baha'i? Heck, why don't you argue that atheist fathers should have the same rights?

[Lotan]

There is something wrong with the way this website is programmed. One logs in and spends 30 or 40 minutes typing a reply to a post and the program then informs one that they are not logged in and when they again log in, they lose their 30 or 40 minute reply, even though it doesn't take up more than a page.

This has happened to me. Now I just COPY the entire post before I hit PREVIEW or SUBMIT. Then if disaster strikes, the post isn't lost forever and I can just PASTE it into a new reply.

[Cephus]

There is something wrong with the way this website is programmed. One logs in and spends 30 or 40 minutes typing a reply to a post and the program then informs one that they are not logged in and when they again log in, they lose their 30 or 40 minute reply, even though it doesn't take up more than a page.

That's pretty standard. If you're going to write a long response, you should probably do it in Notepad or some other text editor and then cut and paste when you're ready. I don't know of any online forums that will allow you to sit for a long time, they figure you lost your connection because the only time they actually see any activity is when you hit "SUBMIT".

Yes, it can be frustrating, I've had it happen many times before.

[Cephus]

Any woman who holds the belief that abortion is morally wrong, under our laws, is not forced against her will be have abortions.

That point is irrelevant to the argument which I am making in favor of having Christian, Jewish and Muslim Fathers informed before their Christian, Jewish or Muslim babies are killed by secular medical doctors before they are born.

Sorry, there is no law that says that they have to be informed. It's not the job of the doctor, it's the job of the woman getting the abortion, if she so chooses.