This is a question for all the theists in the forum, obviously, with a strong emphasis on Christians. I've posted a version of this dillemma on another thead, but I can't find it now...
Anyway, let's say that, one day, you wake up, turn on the news, and hear this news story. A man named John Chalmers, 32 years old, killed a stranger in cold blood at a local Denny's. John Chalmers was a devout Christian all his life; in addition, he donated to charity, volunteered at the local shelter, and generally led a virtuous life. He has no previous criminal history whatsoever. After killing his victim, he knelt down and prayed until the police arrived.
John claims that he heard a "voice" of God -- well, not an actual voice, but the same kind of feeling that he felt when he prayed, and received revelations from the divine. God has appointed him to kill this stranger, as a service to be performed for the Lord. John did not have the slightest doubt that the message came from God; he described his murder as "an act of divine love".
So... Is John a murderer ? Is he a saint ? Is he crazy ? Should Christians punish him, or praise him ? I'm interested to see how the local Christians would answer this question, and I'm especially interested to see their reasons for their answer.
Spoiler warning: yes, yes, this question is a trick.
Divine assassination
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Re: Divine assassination
Post #31as an atheist that widely supports the belief of others if it can be proven
I believe that Christians have a higher duty to support the bibles sayings ont he sanctity of life, you have a right to live god through the teachings of jesus states that free will is a virtue given by him and of course despite in this situation this John fellow happened to have believed that this is what god had planned for him would be highly controversial and if this was gods will then leading a life c
for example if I told a man he could do whatever he wanted as long as he stole an apple from an innocent store then surely with both our knowledge of the consequences I would simply be controlling his destiny by telling him I wasnt, which is of course NOT the teachings of a hypothetical God , real or not this decision would not be supported
I believe that Christians have a higher duty to support the bibles sayings ont he sanctity of life, you have a right to live god through the teachings of jesus states that free will is a virtue given by him and of course despite in this situation this John fellow happened to have believed that this is what god had planned for him would be highly controversial and if this was gods will then leading a life c
for example if I told a man he could do whatever he wanted as long as he stole an apple from an innocent store then surely with both our knowledge of the consequences I would simply be controlling his destiny by telling him I wasnt, which is of course NOT the teachings of a hypothetical God , real or not this decision would not be supported
Post #32
I don't see this as a dilemma at all. Anyone who kills someone because a voice in his head told him to is crazy, by definition. All questions of morality aside, this individual has to be locked up for the protection of Society because there is no telling what "the Voice" will tell him to do next.
It makes no difference, it seems to me, if the killer perceives the voice as coming from a Christian God, Allah, or space aliens. It is classic schizophrenia all the same. Lock him up, save the rest of us from his lethal craziness, and he can pray in his cell to Whomever he wants to for the rest of his life. His rationale for his act is irrelevant.
It makes no difference, it seems to me, if the killer perceives the voice as coming from a Christian God, Allah, or space aliens. It is classic schizophrenia all the same. Lock him up, save the rest of us from his lethal craziness, and he can pray in his cell to Whomever he wants to for the rest of his life. His rationale for his act is irrelevant.
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Re: Divine assassination
Post #33[quote="
John claims that he heard a "voice" of God -- well, not an actual voice, but the same kind of feeling that he felt when he prayed, and received revelations from the divine. God has appointed him to kill this stranger, as a service to be performed for the Lord. John did not have the slightest doubt that the message came from God; he described his murder as "an act of divine love".
So... Is John a murderer ? Is he a saint ? Is he crazy ? Should Christians punish him, or praise him ? I'm interested to see how the local Christians would answer this question, and I'm especially interested to see their reasons for their answer. quote]
This man killed and should be held accountable under law. He then can explain to the judge or jury how exactly does god communicate with him, prove his claim and be judged accordingly
John claims that he heard a "voice" of God -- well, not an actual voice, but the same kind of feeling that he felt when he prayed, and received revelations from the divine. God has appointed him to kill this stranger, as a service to be performed for the Lord. John did not have the slightest doubt that the message came from God; he described his murder as "an act of divine love".
So... Is John a murderer ? Is he a saint ? Is he crazy ? Should Christians punish him, or praise him ? I'm interested to see how the local Christians would answer this question, and I'm especially interested to see their reasons for their answer. quote]
This man killed and should be held accountable under law. He then can explain to the judge or jury how exactly does god communicate with him, prove his claim and be judged accordingly
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Post #34
This video is probably the best explanation I've ever seen for why I don't agree with this reasoning:achilles12604 wrote:Is cutting down a tree that you planted a crime? Is it wrong?
Humans are bound by God's laws because we are not divine. Specifically we are told not to murder. We are also not able to create life. We can reproduce, however this ability is not a "skill" of ours but rather the result of mixing DNA that is already part of us and which we had no part in creating in the first place. So strictly speaking we can not create anything.
God can however. He is the one who created the cromozomes and DNA which make us. He is the author of life. Now . . .
If God decides that someone needs to cease being on earth and should be removed to either another realm (heaven or hell) or the cease existing entirely, isn't that within his authority to do? He planted the tree. Why shouldn't he dig it up when he wants to?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak3z2Pm7Iwg
Satan created those clay people didn't he? It's as true for him as it is for God what he said, isn't it? "We can make more of them later if we need them." And it's equally true with your "humans killing plants we planted" analogy. So why is it so horrifying when he kills all the clay beings?
I'm not entirely sure myself, but I suspect the reason this is so unsettling is that when you create a sentient, biographical being, simply by virtue of those qualities they demand a certain amount of rights. I don't think your position as creator necessarily gives you a right to crap all over your creations' rights. Meanwhile plants have minimal, if any sentience, and lacking brains, likely are completely non-biographical. This is what separates God killing humans from your humans killing plants analogy.
It's astonishing to me how many times I sang that song without really registering what I was saying. I can still hear the tune echoing in my mind....ugh.McCulloch wrote:Trust and obey, for there is no other way, to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey.