Hugo Chavez and "Bolivarism"

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The Persnickety Platypus
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Hugo Chavez and "Bolivarism"

Post #1

Post by The Persnickety Platypus »

Split from the Pat Robertson thread...



He is a public figure making good money with his insane rantings.


And feeding and clothing the poor.
Which is would explain his opposition to Chavez, a man who (*gasp*) uses his country's massive oil profits to support the needy!

Doubling the Venezualan weekly minimum wage?!?! We Christians cannot stand for this abomination!

Put good old Hugo in charge of Pat's profits. Poverty would be abolished overnight.




But seriously, we all know the real reason Robertson despises Chavez. Don't pretend you don't. All that precious oil money could be going to US corporations, who would be further equipted to continue their highly successful plight of screwing over the American people. Don't let his preaching of "moral values" fool you, all any true Right-Winger wants is to further fatten our friendly American corporate overlord's wallets.
So, why don't the Bush Administration and the right-wing extremists and religious fanatics in the U.S. like Hugo Chavez? Venezuela, after all, supplies the U.S. with 12 per cent of its imported oil and sits on top of the eighth largest known oil field in the world.

Oil is the problem not that Venezuela has it, but what Hugo Chavez does with it. Rather than gratuitously fatten the profit margins of the international oil companies, the Venezuelan government under Chavez extracts higher taxes and fees from those companies, and plows that money back into the people of Venezuela. He facilitates the formation of grassroots organizations and worker cooperatives amongst Venezuela's poor.


He has increased the minimum wage from about $25 per week to about $40 per week, and raised personal income taxes up to a rate of 10-15 per cent. He has established food programs to feed the poor and traded oil to Cuba for doctors and teachers who provide free health care to the poor and enhanced educational opportunities. He has used oil wealth to increase public works in order to provide more jobs for Venezuelans.

Imagine, using national resources to improve the national society and raise living standards for the poorest citizens. Imagine increasing access to education, health care and affordable food. It flies in the face of modern, corporate capitalism and the demand for ever lower costs for resources and labour.

And, as far as the U.S. and its corporate sponsors are concerned, it sets a bad example for the rest of Latin America. Imagine if Chavez's programs of redirecting wealth to the people of the countries where it is produced rather than letting it be sucked out by foreign investors should catch on. That is the other part of the problem.

Chavez has named his political and social philosophy Bolivarianism and is pursuing a Bolivarian Revolution, not just for Venezuela but for most of South America. The name comes from that of Simon Bolivar who liberated what are now Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador, Columbia and Venezuela from Spain in the early 19th Century. In this century Chavez is providing support to populist movements in neighbouring countries, a move clearly designed to spread his Bolivarian philosophy throughout the South American continent.

He is making oil deals with Brazil and Argentina and advocating Latin American military and trade alliances to challenge the power of the U.S. in the region. Venezuela, too, is the major partner in a Latin American satellite television network, Telesur, along with Argentina, Cuba and Uruguay, which will provide a counter point to the messages broadcast to South America by U.S. networks like CNN.

Chavez is plainly becoming a regional leader in an area long dominated by U.S. influence and interference. Like Simon Bolivar before him, who challenged the rule of the Spanish, Chavez has become a challenge in the region to the power of the United States.
As you can see, a truly evil man.
Last edited by The Persnickety Platypus on Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

1John2_26
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Post #81

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If only the Gospel of Christ could dominate the socialist agenda. But it never does. It is too hard for some to embrace the choice and consequences of admitting a life of sin.

It's interesting to watch the morality of these Socialists rising to power in these countries "for the poor worker."

A socialist cocaine farmer in Bolivia is elected "President." Of course.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americ ... 210487.stm

President: Evo Morales

Socialist leader Evo Morales, a figurehead for Bolivia's coca farmers, won presidential elections in December 2005, the first indigenous Bolivian to do so. He described himself as the candidate "of the most disdained and discriminated against".

Indigenous leader Evo Morales defends traditional uses of coca leaf
His victory was decisive; he surpassed the figure needed to take office without the need for a vote in Congress. Much of his support came from Bolivia's indigenous majority.

His policies look to set inflame opinion. In particular, a promise to relax restrictions on growing coca, the raw material for cocaine, could make him a thorn in the side of the US, which has bankrolled the fight against drugs in the country. Mr Morales defends the traditional uses of the coca leaf among the indigenous population.

He inherits a political tinderbox; street protests over the control of Bolivia's energy resources have unseated two of his predecessors since 2003.

Mr Morales has pledged to increase state control over the natural gas industry, but says he will not expropriate the property of energy firms. He says he wants to bring the benefits of the nation's resources to the people.

Born in 1959, Mr Morales is an Aymara Indian from an impoverished family. In his youth he was a llama herder and played the trumpet in a band. The former coca grower lost the 2002 presidential election to the conservative, Gonzalo Sanchez de Lozada.

He is an admirer of two Latin American populist firebrands - Cuba's Fidel Castro and Venezuela's Hugo Chavez.

He succeeds caretaker leader Eduardo Rodriguez, who took office in June 2005 when President Carlos Mesa resigned amid mass protests demanding the nationalisation of the energy sector.

Foreign minister: David Choquehuanca
Interior minister: Alicia Munoz
Hydrocarbons minister: Andres Soliz Rada
From a cocaine grower, he wants to help the poor. Perfect socialist morality in action.
Bolivia is one of the world's largest producers of coca, the raw material for cocaine. A crop-eradication programme, though easing the flow of conditional US aid, has incensed many of Bolivia's poorest farmers for whom coca is often the only source of income.


And the Marxist connection:

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060201/bolivia_gas.html?.v=2
Morales named Marxist free-market critic Andres Soliz as minister of hydrocarbons, signaling the government will be a potentially tough negotiating partner for the companies.
Any Marxist born again fundamentalist Christians out there?

I just though I'd ask. It "appears" that socialism evolves in a person to anti-Christian beliefs "as a matter of course." I don't think Jesus would support cocaine growing. I'll re-read the Gospels once again. But I'm thinking that sharing a coke pipe is not exactly the whole "do unto others" teaching.

And the connection of the poor to addiction is well-documented in secular sources even.

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Post #82

Post by The Persnickety Platypus »

I do not trust your stats, don't believe them and the United Nations would be a good place to find that mistrust well-placed.
Yet you trust biased dialogues from private conservative sites?


Seriously, I am trying my best here, but you are not really working with me. The statistics I posted are pretty much the official international figures. You would have quite a job finding more reliable sources.
There is nothing we can agree on unless Bible-believing Christians are the leadership of these civilizations these godless socialists want to build.
In other words, theocracy?

Iran, Saudi Arabia, the former Afganistan, Sundan, and Middle Age Catholic Europe are your model societies?

Even the your darling United States of America is not ruled by God. Yet.
Historically, when Europe was run "by the church" most people in the past never read the Bible nor, even saw one.
Hey! Just like American Christians!
That is Lenin, Stalin and Mao. The three examples of socialism that socialsts want to hide. Yes I will use them everytime a socialist comes out of the darkness.
I am not hiding from them. They were horrible people, ruling miserable countries.

You may mention them all you want. But this largely inaccurate generalization you derive from their regimes is not a viable argument. You cannot deny the mass successes from the many good socialist nations I have mentioned (the quantity of which far outweigh the minimal number of evil examples you have provided).

If you can base your entire argument on these three men, why can't I base my entire argument on, oh say, imperialist Britain, Napolean, and elitist Venezuela?

All systems, no matter how good, witness some corruption at some point or another. You have given me four or five viable examples of communist corruption. Want to see how many corrupt/unsuccessful Capitalist examples I can come up with?

Imperialist Britain
France under Napolean
Spain at various points in time
WW2 Japan
Gulf War Iraq
India
The Romans
WW2 Italy
Pretty much every single nation involved in WW1 (too many to list)
Byzantine empire
Elitist Venezuela
Portugal
The former Dutch
Most countries in the Middle East (at one point or another)
Kenya
Turkey
South Africa
Niger
Burkina Faso
Mauritania
Ethiopia
Mali
Liberia
Nigeria
Benin Republic
Zambia
Zimbabwe

And the list goes on...
It was interesting seeing communsim unable to be hidden from the facade known as socialsm in the statement I quoted from you.
Are you still on the private ownership of land thing? Sorry, but the former Native American culture is looking a lot more sustainable than the imperialist European one that replaced it, at least from where I am standing.
Americans will never except socialism.
Which is why America is dying, and refuses to realize so.

In a few years, there is not going to be a place in this country for middle class citizens such as you and I. Look at the trends. Please help us to reverse them.
I don't think Jesus would support cocaine growing.
Would he support poverty and unemployment? Read your own article.

The crop eradication program "has incensed many of Bolivia's poorest farmers for whom coca is often the only source of income."

It's either grow coke, or starve. You don't get it, Bolivia does not have unlimited sources of capital like America. Over here, if Walmart closes down, you can always stroll down the street and apply at McDonalds. In Bolivia, if cocaine is banned, you are 100% completely screwed.

By the way, successful drug policy shows that treatment should be increased, law enforcement decreased (as Europe aptly demonstrates, once again). Drug regulation and crime rates are also directly correlated.

The American war on drugs is such a joke.

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Wyvern
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Post #83

Post by Wyvern »

The Persnickety Platypus wrote:[
Imperialist Britain
France under Napolean
Spain at various points in time
WW2 Japan
Gulf War Iraq
India
The Romans
WW2 Italy
Pretty much every single nation involved in WW1 (too many to list)
Byzantine empire
Elitist Venezuela
Portugal
The former Dutch
Most countries in the Middle East (at one point or another)
Kenya
Turkey
South Africa
Niger
Burkina Faso
Mauritania
Ethiopia
Mali
Liberia
Nigeria
Benin Republic
Zambia
Zimbabwe


Sorry, but the former Native American culture is looking a lot more sustainable than the imperialist European one that replaced it, at least from where I am standing.
.
Most of your points I agree with except for these two, most of the countries you list weren't capitalist, I wont go into detail but most were/are monarchies of some sort, military dictatorships, theocracies or a vestigial soviet style communist system which was picked up as a response to being a former colony of european powers.
For the native american comment their system was no more stable than any other. At the time of the arrival of europeans in the americas two of the four great american cultures had either collapsed(mississippian culture) or self destructed(mayans). Effectively the european arrival was at a very lucky time for them since only the aztecs and incan cultures were still in existance and they were hamstrung by their religious beliefs.

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Post #84

Post by The Persnickety Platypus »

most of the countries you list weren't capitalist
All the African ones mentioned have employed capitalist policies in recent years, and have achieved disastrous results.

Out of the remaining nations, Britain, India, and the former Venezuela (at the very least) were/are completely capitalistic. The rest, while not necessarily employing a free market on the home front, were very imperialist, which is a capitalistic practice.
At the time of the arrival of europeans in the americas two of the four great american cultures had either collapsed(mississippian culture) or self destructed(mayans).
You can't blame the political structure for these nations' collapse (at least not entirely). The Mayans faced a series of environmental problems, most notably the intense droughts preceding their demise. The Mississippians faced widespread disease and population movements. Of course, the arrival of the Spanish sure didn't help either.

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Post #85

Post by 1John2_26 »

The American war on drugs is such a joke.
Because of the revision and redefinition of moral laws.

By guess who?
In a few years, there is not going to be a place in this country for middle class citizens such as you and I. Look at the trends. Please help us to reverse them.
Promoting fear may work with Bolivian coke growers but not an American that has been educated and tasted freedom. I cannot walk with a socialist one-step. It leads to denial of too much freedom and most importantly God. History is proof of that.

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Post #86

Post by 1John2_26 »

From socialism to anti-Christian edicts:
Missionaries obey order to leave Venezuelan jungle


CARACAS, Venezuela U-S missionaries accused by Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez of espionage have until Sunday to leave their remote outposts among jungle tribes.

A spokesman for the missionaries says, "They're all shattered, some of them depressed."

New Tribes Mission spokeswoman Nita Zelenak (NEE'-tuh ZEL'-uh-nak) says 35 missionaries have relocated to urban areas while they appeal the expulsion order, some after decades of evangelism and Bible translation work. It's unclear when Venezuela's Supreme Court will hear the case.

New Tribes has denied Chavez's charge that it's been spying for the C-I-A and foreign mining and pharmaceutical firms, and has offered to open its jungle missions to government inspectors.

Since the expulsion order, Zelenak says some indigenous people have shown a greater interest in the gospel and have stepped forward to take leadership in the tribal churches.

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Post #87

Post by The Persnickety Platypus »

And Hugo does not have a reason to be suspicious of American groups? After suffering numerous US sponsored coup attempts (some violent), on top of a certain Christian evangelist publicly calling for his assassination?

Noticed how not all missionary groups are being asked to leave, just the NT?

Of course, even if he did suddenly decide to oust all Christian groups, it would not matter much. They are not providing Venezuelans with anything that the government is not all ready giving them, besides (if my suspicions are correct) a slew of twisted Right-Wing oil mongering capitalist rhetoric.

But the point is, the 'New Tribes Mission' is not being expelled because they are Christian. Chavez treats US oil company representatives and right-wing radicals who stroll inside the borders in the very same way.

Anti-Christian? No, anti-American government.

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Post #88

Post by 1John2_26 »

And Hugo does not have a reason to be suspicious of American groups? After suffering numerous US sponsored coup attempts (some violent), on top of a certain Christian evangelist publicly calling for his assassination?

Noticed how not all missionary groups are being asked to leave, just the NT?

Of course, even if he did suddenly decide to oust all Christian groups, it would not matter much. They are not providing Venezuelans with anything that the government is not all ready giving them, besides (if my suspicions are correct) a slew of twisted Right-Wing oil mongering capitalist rhetoric.

But the point is, the 'New Tribes Mission' is not being expelled because they are Christian. Chavez treats US oil company representatives and right-wing radicals who stroll inside the borders in the very same way.

Anti-Christian? No, anti-American government.
Did comrade Chavez expel Americans or Christians? He chose Christians to expel.

Always socialisms colors are flown after they take power. Why do so many vote against Democrats in America? Americans are far better educated. What's happening in little brother Bolivia? Cocaine taking prominence in another socialist vehicle.

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Post #89

Post by The Persnickety Platypus »

Did comrade Chavez expel Americans or Christians?
American Christians. The rest of the hundreds of missionary groups have been left untouched, FYI.

So why on earth is Hugo so anal about these harmless little Americans?

US threats grow against Bolivarian Revolution.

William Arkin reported in the Nov. 2 online edition of the Washington Post that "The Pentagon has begun contingency planning for potential military conflict with Venezuela as part of a broad post-Iraq evaluation of strategic threats to the United States. The planning has been precipitated by general and specific directives issued by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and his civilian policy assistants."

In July hundreds of U.S. soldiers were deployed to Paraguay for military exercises due to last through 2006. There is evidence they will install yet another permanent U.S. military base, one capable of handling heavy bombers. Washington apparently hopes the troop presence can reverse the winds of change sweeping the continent.

Also in July, Congress authorized the government to initiate radio and television broadcasts to Venezuela to counteract Telesur, a television broadcaster independent of imperialism, founded by Venezuela, Argentina, Uruguay and Cuba and supported by Brazil. Telesur is set to broadcast in Venezuela and all of Latin America and the Caribbean.

On Aug. 19, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld accused Chvez of "anti-social, destabilizing behavior" that threatened regional security. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has echoed this view on more than one occasion.

On Oct. 30, the Washington Post published an ominous editorial declaring that the "human rights community is under siege" in Venezuela. The editorial also stated that journalists and press freedoms were being threatened as well. This type of editorial aims to diminish the popular appeal of Venezuelas revolution within the U.S. and set the stage for intervention.


Evidence grows that Washington is again using certain religious forces to sabotage revolutionary Venezuela, as it did in Nicaragua in the 1980s. In late October, the Venezuelan government announced that it had to ask an evangelical mission, the New Tribes, to leave the country. President Chvez stated that the missionaries had ties with the CIA and were gathering strategic information that threatened Venezuelas national security
Why do so many vote against Democrats in America? Americans are far better educated.
Educated? The Republican party would no longer EXIST if this "educated" public knew of the mass social, economic, and democratic failures that have wrought our country over the past twenty years.

The ecomomy has traditionally flourished under Democrat legislation. But of course, this matters little. Today's "educated" voter's ideal platform only consists of two issues. Politicians who destroy the working class will always get the conservative stamp of approval, granted they take a passionate stance on the ever important issue of state sanctioned homophobia.
What's happening in little brother Bolivia? Cocaine taking prominence in another socialist vehicle.
Cocaine? You mean, the crop that offers the only source of income for half of the country's poor workforce?

When will those silly socialists get their priorities in line? Drug regulation *always* takes precedence over unemployment and poverty!

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Post #90

Post by 1John2_26 »

Cocaine? You mean, the crop that offers the only source of income for half of the country's poor workforce?
Yes. I mean the poor workforce enslaving the American poor by providing cocaine to the poorest neighborhoods in America. DC, New York, LA, Chicago, and other Democrat voting inner-cities. Odd hypocrisy here.
When will those silly socialists get their priorities in line? Drug regulation *always* takes precedence over unemployment and poverty!
The drug runners of the world are rejoicing tonight. The ones getting filthy rich running drugs that is. The coca farmers still, live in squalor. Those that can still think without inebriated brains.

By the way, Chavez is OK with socialist countries and their Christians, is that right? The ones supporting illegal drug use?

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