Allah made it look like Jesus died, but he let someone die in Jesus' place to save Jesus according to the Quran. Isn't that a form of substitutionary death? This is something some Muslims tell me God doesn't do; so, I am confused about this.
The Quran states that the unbelievers plot and scheme with deception but Allah is the "best of deceivers" Some English translations state "the best of planners," in context, however, Allah does best what the unbelievers were doing which was deceiving; so, is Allah to blame for starting Christianity or did he know his deception would cause the birth of a religion that Islam could not comprehend or overcome? For instance, Christianity, IMO, has always been bigger, better and stronger than Islam and always will be!
Did Allah start Christianty?
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Burninglight
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Burninglight
- Guru
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Jesus is Lord
Post #491Jacob have I loved; Esau have I hated says the Lord. God is the only one who can over ride who gets the blessing as the first born. Man cannot make an exception, but God can. In Islam, putting Ishmael first as the child of promise is man's doing not God's. Letting the woman remain silent is a far cry from beating them and treating them worse than dogs.HaLi8993 wrote: Burninglight
Seeing as you have brought these topics up would you mind clarifying a few things for me, according to your own scripture:
1) BEATING IS OPEN TO ANYONE, who is deemed to have evil in them or acting stupid and is a fool.
"Young people take pride in their strength, but the gray hairs of wisdom are even more beautiful. A severe beating can knock all of the evil out of you! (From the Contemporary English Version (CEV) Bible, Proverbs 20:29-30)"
"Hatred stirs up trouble; love overlooks the wrongs that others do. If you have good sense, it will show when you speak. But if you are stupid, you will be beaten with a stick. If you have good sense, you will learn all you can, but foolish talk will soon destroy you. (From the Contemporary English Version (CEV) Bible, Proverbs 10:12-14)"
"A curse you dont deserve will take wings and fly away like a sparrow or a swallow. Horses and donkeys must be beaten and bridled" and so must fools. Dont make a fool of yourself by answering a fool. (From the Contemporary English Version (CEV) Bible, Proverbs 26:2-4)"
2) A WIFE (WIDOW) INHERITS NOTHING, and a daughter only inherits if a son exists, older son gets double of what the younger son would get.
Numbers 27
8 "Say to the Israelites, 'If a man dies and leaves no son, turn his inheritance over to his daughter.
9 If he has no daughter, give his inheritance to his brothers.
10 If he has no brothers, give his inheritance to his father's brothers.
11 If his father had no brothers, give his inheritance to the nearest relative in his clan, that he may possess it. This is to be a legal requirement for the Israelites, as the LORD commanded Moses.' "
Deuteronomy 21
15 If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons but the firstborn is the son of the wife he does not love,
16 when he wills his property to his sons, he must not give the rights of the firstborn to the son of the wife he loves in preference to his actual firstborn, the son of the wife he does not love.
17 He must acknowledge the son of his unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double share of all he has. That son is the first sign of his father's strength. The right of the firstborn belongs to him.
3) A MAN CAN MARRY AN INFINITE AMOUNT OF WOMEN WITHOUT ANY LIMITS
Exodus 21:10
If a man who has married a slave wife takes another wife for himself, he must not neglect the rights of the first wife to food, clothing, and sexual intimacy
4) A WOWEN CANNOT DIVORCE HER HUSBAND
Romans 7:2-3
For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress.
1 Corinthians 7:39
A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must belong to the Lord.
Imagine, the cruelty. A woman cannot divorce her husband?? If she does and then remarries someone else then she is committing adultery??
5) WOMEN ARE TO BE SILENCED:
What the New Testament has to say:
1 Timothy 2:11-14 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
6) MEN CAN SHAVE THE HEAD OF WOMEN IF THEY DON'T COVER IT:
1 Corinthians 11:5-10: But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
7) WOMEN TREATED AS SEX SLAVES
Exodus 21:7-8 And in case a man should sell his daughter as a slave girl, she will not go out in the way that the slave men go out. If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master so that he doesn't designate her as a concubine but causes her to be redeemed, he will not be entitled to sell her to a foreign people in his treacherously dealing with her.
8) WOMEN ARE PHYSICALLY DEFILING WHEN THEY HAVE THEIR MENSUS:
Leviticus 15:19-30 - And if a woman have an issue (her period/menses), [and] her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even. And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean....
9) THE HEAD OF EVERY WOMEN IS MAN:
1 Corinthians 11:3
3Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Furthermore is considered under God.
10) WOMEN ARE FORCED TO MARRY HER RAPIST?
Deuteronomy 22:28
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. [c] He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
In conclusion I will stop at that, I don't want to get into the X rated verses mentioned in the Bible, Therefore according to these verses Burniglight we can see how women can be beaten, have no inheritance, have their hair shaven, are under men, forced to marry their rapists, treated as sex slaves etc, now before you say that some of these verses were the laws of the OT and don't apply anymore, I would like to remind you what Jesus (peace be upon him) said:
Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)
So I have shown you how you have taken things out of context when it came to the verses you quoted, can you do the same with these verses.How hasn't Satan deceived you?
Abraham loved Ishmael and wanted him first as the child of promise, BUT GOD SAID NO; Islam cannot accept God's "NO." God said to Abraham, "In Isaac will your seed by blessed;" not Ishmael. I am not deceived by Satan on this. You are having a hard time accepting truth. Islam is a religion of man trying to reach God, but they can't and don't realize it. Christianity is a religion of God reaching for man, and Christianity accepts God's on His terms; Islam doesn't!
Islam has to take responsiblity for the torah you quote here; so what is your point? Jesus showed us that He is the fulfillment of the OT laws in the torah. God's commandments through Christ are only two. To love God with all our heart, soul and mind and our neighbor as ourselves. Jesus said, this fulfills all the laws and the prophets.
What is absent from Islam is love, and that is all of God's spirit. Islam accepts the torah as from Allah. You quoting the torah doesn't help your case here. It is the NT that you reject. If you follow the torah only, you are no better off than following the Quran. The torah is dead to Christians through the body of Christ. The torah is a dead husband that I have been set free from by the death of Chriat on the cross, I am ressurrect with Him to a new spiritual life of the New Covenant of God. Islam missed the boat and so did the Jews.
Paul speaks of love your wife like Christ loved the church and gave himself for it. He understand that love was the way God went. Muhammad didn't know that. Show where there is any indication of love in the Quran. If you love you wife you will not beat her and treat her as property or a slave like Muslim do especially in the middle east.
God has freed us from the letter of the law in the OT. That is what the NT is about. Islam is stuck in types and shadows of Christ, and it does them no good. It is the same way with the Jews. They have rejected God's plan of salvation and so have you. There really isn't any more we can say at this point. You are very accountable for the Scripture you know in the Bible. I am a witness. You are forever learning and never coming to the knoweldge of truth.
May our Lord help you come to the knowledge of truth, before it is too late!
Post #492
Burninglight
QUOTE: "Jacob have I loved; Esau have I hated says the Lord. God is the only one who can over ride who gets the blessing as the first born. Man cannot make an exception, but God can. In Islam, putting Ishmael first as the child of promise is man's doing not God's. Letting the woman remain silent is a far cry from beating them and treating them worse than dogs.
Abraham loved Ishmael and wanted him first as the child of promise, BUT GOD SAID NO; NOT MAN! In Isaac will your seed by blessed; not Ishmael. I am not deceived by Satan on this. You are having a hard time accepting truth. Islam is a religion of man trying to reach God, but they can't and don't realize it. Christianity is a religion of God reaching for man, and Christianity accepts God's on His terms; Islam doesn't!"
ANSWER: If your not going to follow up on my answers then I don't see why you ask them in the first place, or is it you simply don't have an answer?. If God is love (1 John 4:8), how could He hate Esau?, yes you are right God is the only one that chooses Prophethood. According to Genesis 17:20, Ismael is blessed, he will be fertile, his nation will multiply he will be made into a great nation:
Genesis (17:20): As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation.
Yes, beating women and treating them like dogs would in fact be worse, but you have failed to prove that Islam teaches such things, you want to give your own interpretations to what you are reading instead of looking at the evidence lol, you seem to think that if a women passes in front of a man during prayer she is treated like a dog lol.
It is God that chooses who he wants to lead his people, where in the bible does it say that Abraham wanted Ismael and God refused? Ismael was his first beloved son hence it was him that was to be sacrificed. You are having a hard time seeing the truth. Islam is the religion of God the Gospels are a product of man. The process of changes we see in the Gospels cannot be ignored. Therefore we have the Quran a unchanged revelation from God from day one from 1400 years ago, and we have the Gospels which rulings and laws have completely been changed. If I asked any layman which book they would follow without mentioning what they were the answer would be the Quran without a doubt.
QUOTE: "Jacob have I loved; Esau have I hated says the Lord. God is the only one who can over ride who gets the blessing as the first born. Man cannot make an exception, but God can. In Islam, putting Ishmael first as the child of promise is man's doing not God's. Letting the woman remain silent is a far cry from beating them and treating them worse than dogs.
Abraham loved Ishmael and wanted him first as the child of promise, BUT GOD SAID NO; NOT MAN! In Isaac will your seed by blessed; not Ishmael. I am not deceived by Satan on this. You are having a hard time accepting truth. Islam is a religion of man trying to reach God, but they can't and don't realize it. Christianity is a religion of God reaching for man, and Christianity accepts God's on His terms; Islam doesn't!"
ANSWER: If your not going to follow up on my answers then I don't see why you ask them in the first place, or is it you simply don't have an answer?. If God is love (1 John 4:8), how could He hate Esau?, yes you are right God is the only one that chooses Prophethood. According to Genesis 17:20, Ismael is blessed, he will be fertile, his nation will multiply he will be made into a great nation:
Genesis (17:20): As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation.
Yes, beating women and treating them like dogs would in fact be worse, but you have failed to prove that Islam teaches such things, you want to give your own interpretations to what you are reading instead of looking at the evidence lol, you seem to think that if a women passes in front of a man during prayer she is treated like a dog lol.
It is God that chooses who he wants to lead his people, where in the bible does it say that Abraham wanted Ismael and God refused? Ismael was his first beloved son hence it was him that was to be sacrificed. You are having a hard time seeing the truth. Islam is the religion of God the Gospels are a product of man. The process of changes we see in the Gospels cannot be ignored. Therefore we have the Quran a unchanged revelation from God from day one from 1400 years ago, and we have the Gospels which rulings and laws have completely been changed. If I asked any layman which book they would follow without mentioning what they were the answer would be the Quran without a doubt.
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Burninglight
- Guru
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- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:40 am
Post #493
The Bible states it was Isaac that Abraham was to sacrafice, but the big question here is why??? It doesn't sound logical that God would ask such a thing until you think that it was a shadow and type of What God has done by sacraficing His only beloved son on the cross for our wicked sins. What ever made you think it was Ishmael?HaLi8993 wrote: Burninglight
QUOTE: "Jacob have I loved; Esau have I hated says the Lord. God is the only one who can over ride who gets the blessing as the first born. Man cannot make an exception, but God can. In Islam, putting Ishmael first as the child of promise is man's doing not God's. Letting the woman remain silent is a far cry from beating them and treating them worse than dogs.
Abraham loved Ishmael and wanted him first as the child of promise, BUT GOD SAID NO; NOT MAN! In Isaac will your seed by blessed; not Ishmael. I am not deceived by Satan on this. You are having a hard time accepting truth. Islam is a religion of man trying to reach God, but they can't and don't realize it. Christianity is a religion of God reaching for man, and Christianity accepts God's on His terms; Islam doesn't!"
ANSWER: If your not going to follow up on my answers then I don't see why you ask them in the first place, or is it you simply don't have an answer?. If God is love (1 John 4:8), how could He hate Esau?, yes you are right God is the only one that chooses Prophethood. According to Genesis 17:20, Ismael is blessed, he will be fertile, his nation will multiply he will be made into a great nation:
Genesis (17:20): As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation.
Yes, beating women and treating them like dogs would in fact be worse, but you have failed to prove that Islam teaches such things, you want to give your own interpretations to what you are reading instead of looking at the evidence lol, you seem to think that if a women passes in front of a man during prayer she is treated like a dog lol.
It is God that chooses who he wants to lead his people, where in the bible does it say that Abraham wanted Ismael and God refused? Ismael was his first beloved son hence it was him that was to be sacrificed. You are having a hard time seeing the truth. Islam is the religion of God the Gospels are a product of man. The process of changes we see in the Gospels cannot be ignored. Therefore we have the Quran a unchanged revelation from God from day one from 1400 years ago, and we have the Gospels which rulings and laws have completely been changed. If I asked any layman which book they would follow without mentioning what they were the answer would be the Quran without a doubt.
We now only have God's mercy and forgiveness through Christ. He that has the son has life; he that has not the son has not life but the wrath of God abides on him. Even when God sends the wicked to hell and a firey torment; He is still love. God's hate is greater than any man's love; God's weakness is stronger than any man's strength! All things God does is out of love.
God cannot do anything wrong; he is prefect and right all the time. God rejecting Ishmael as the child of promise is love. Ishmael was blessed but he was no prophet or spokesman for God ever nor was any of his descendants. That is the God's honest truth.
I don't have to prove that women are mistreated in Islam; Islam is as it does. Jesus said a tree is known by its fruit. A Good tree brings good fruit and a corrupt tree brings corrupt fruit. Just the fact that the Quran says to withhold the marriage bed and beat your woman proves that abuse goes on in Islam. Emotional and physical abuse is happening now to woman, because of Islam. Woman must suffer the same penalties as men, but only get half the rewards. It has nothing to do with the God of the Bible or Jesus. Islam's god and jesus are not the same God and Jesus of the Bible!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post #494
Burniglight
QUOTE: "The Bible states it was Isaac that Abraham was to sacrafice, but the big question here is why??? It doesn't sound logical that God would ask such a thing until you think that it was a shadow and type of What God has done by sacraficing His only beloved son on the cross for our wicked sins. What ever made you think it was Ishmael?"
ANSWER: Christians claim that it was Isaac to be sacrificed however as Muslims we believe it was Ismael which is closer to the truth according to all the evidence. Abraham prayed to God to grant him a righteous son. Hence God granted Abraham his first born which was Ismael. The name itself means "to hear", God had heard Abraham's prayer. This is evident in the Quranic verse below:
QURAN 37:100-102
" 'O my Lord! grant me a righteous (son)!' So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear. Then when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, He said: 'O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!' (The son) said: 'O my father! Do as thou art commanded: Thou wilt find me, if Allah so wills one practising patience and constancy!'
The Bible claims that Abraham offered his son Isaac for sacrifice, and the Quran claims that he offered Ismael, who was 13 years older than Isaac for sacrifice. So we have the Bible's word against the Quran. Abrahim named his first son Ismael because God heard his prayer and granted him his first born son Ismael. Abrahim was happy to have been gifted with a son at such an old age that he chose to name him a name that would symbolize his patience and gratefulness that God had answered his long awaited prayer.
Abraham was 86 when Ishmael was born. He adored Ishmael and loved him dearly. When one looks at the evidence at hand Ismael being 13 years older than Isaac and the fact that Abraham loved Ismael dearly it only makes sense that he wanted to sacrifice his own son for God giving Him the only precious thing he had.
Moreover Isaac was Abraham's second son born of Sarah, he was also blessed and became the ancestor of the Jewish people:
QURAN: 37:111-112
"For he [Abraham] was one of our believing Servants. And we gave him the good news [a second-born son to come] of Isaac - a Prophet - One of the Righteous.
QUOTE: "We now only have God's mercy and forgiveness through Christ. He that has the son has life; he that has not the son has not life but the wrath of God abides on him. Even when God sends the wicked to hell and a firey torment; He is still love. God's hate is greater than any man's love; God's weakness is stronger than any man's strength! All things God does is out of love"
ANSWER: We only have God's Mercy, you don't need to go through Jesus (peace be upon him) to get to God. Why don't you ask God directly? Does this mean God had no Mercy or forgiveness prior to the advent of Jesus (peace be upon him)??
QUOTE: "God cannot do anything wrong; he is prefect and right all the time. God rejecting Ishmael as the child of promise is love. Ishmael was blessed but he was no prophet or spokesman for God ever nor was any of his descendants. That is the God's honest truth"
ANSWER: Where is your evidence that Ismael is not a Prophet no where in the bible does it say he was not a Prophet, also where does it say God rejected him??? According to Genesis 21:13 Ishmael is also blessed, and therefore also included in God's promise.
Genesis 21:13
Of the son of the maidservant (i.e. Ishmael) I will make a great nation because he is thy seed.
QUOTE: "I don't have to prove that women are mistreated in Islam; Islam is as it does. Jesus said a tree is known by its fruit. A Good tree brings good fruit and a corrupt tree brings corrupt fruit. Just the fact that the Quran says to withhold the marriage bed and beat your woman proves that abuse goes on in Islam. Emotional and physical abuse is happening now to woman, because of Islam. Woman must suffer the same penalties as men, but only get half the rewards. It has nothing to do with the God of the Bible or Jesus. Islam's god and jesus are not the same God and Jesus of the Bible!!!!!!!!!!!!"
ANSWER: That's right you have to prove they are mistreated in Christianity. The actions of others can not conclude that Islam accepts nor teachings such things, that would mean that I could judge Christianity according to the actions of priests that rape and molest little children, have I any right to say that all Christians believe that this is correct?? We need to judge something according to the evidence provided and the arguments presented. Im glad the Quran isn't corrupted then Lol. No doubt there are abusive husbands just as there are all across the globe, but you cannot prove it's a violent beating. Emotional and Physical abuse is happening every where doesn't mean Islam accepts such things. Of course men and women will receive the same penalties according to their actions, can you show me any evidence that says that women get half the reward, cause the Quran says otherwise:
QURAN: 33:35
Indeed, the Muslim men and Muslim women, the believing men and believing women, the obedient men and obedient women, the truthful men and truthful women, the patient men and patient women, the humble men and humble women, the charitable men and charitable women, the fasting men and fasting women, the men who guard their private parts and the women who do so, and the men who remember Allah often and the women who do so - for them Allah has prepared forgiveness and a great reward.
There is only One God Burninglight, the same God that revealed the Psalms, Torah, Ingeel, and Quran.
QUOTE: "The Bible states it was Isaac that Abraham was to sacrafice, but the big question here is why??? It doesn't sound logical that God would ask such a thing until you think that it was a shadow and type of What God has done by sacraficing His only beloved son on the cross for our wicked sins. What ever made you think it was Ishmael?"
ANSWER: Christians claim that it was Isaac to be sacrificed however as Muslims we believe it was Ismael which is closer to the truth according to all the evidence. Abraham prayed to God to grant him a righteous son. Hence God granted Abraham his first born which was Ismael. The name itself means "to hear", God had heard Abraham's prayer. This is evident in the Quranic verse below:
QURAN 37:100-102
" 'O my Lord! grant me a righteous (son)!' So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear. Then when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, He said: 'O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!' (The son) said: 'O my father! Do as thou art commanded: Thou wilt find me, if Allah so wills one practising patience and constancy!'
The Bible claims that Abraham offered his son Isaac for sacrifice, and the Quran claims that he offered Ismael, who was 13 years older than Isaac for sacrifice. So we have the Bible's word against the Quran. Abrahim named his first son Ismael because God heard his prayer and granted him his first born son Ismael. Abrahim was happy to have been gifted with a son at such an old age that he chose to name him a name that would symbolize his patience and gratefulness that God had answered his long awaited prayer.
Abraham was 86 when Ishmael was born. He adored Ishmael and loved him dearly. When one looks at the evidence at hand Ismael being 13 years older than Isaac and the fact that Abraham loved Ismael dearly it only makes sense that he wanted to sacrifice his own son for God giving Him the only precious thing he had.
Moreover Isaac was Abraham's second son born of Sarah, he was also blessed and became the ancestor of the Jewish people:
QURAN: 37:111-112
"For he [Abraham] was one of our believing Servants. And we gave him the good news [a second-born son to come] of Isaac - a Prophet - One of the Righteous.
QUOTE: "We now only have God's mercy and forgiveness through Christ. He that has the son has life; he that has not the son has not life but the wrath of God abides on him. Even when God sends the wicked to hell and a firey torment; He is still love. God's hate is greater than any man's love; God's weakness is stronger than any man's strength! All things God does is out of love"
ANSWER: We only have God's Mercy, you don't need to go through Jesus (peace be upon him) to get to God. Why don't you ask God directly? Does this mean God had no Mercy or forgiveness prior to the advent of Jesus (peace be upon him)??
QUOTE: "God cannot do anything wrong; he is prefect and right all the time. God rejecting Ishmael as the child of promise is love. Ishmael was blessed but he was no prophet or spokesman for God ever nor was any of his descendants. That is the God's honest truth"
ANSWER: Where is your evidence that Ismael is not a Prophet no where in the bible does it say he was not a Prophet, also where does it say God rejected him??? According to Genesis 21:13 Ishmael is also blessed, and therefore also included in God's promise.
Genesis 21:13
Of the son of the maidservant (i.e. Ishmael) I will make a great nation because he is thy seed.
QUOTE: "I don't have to prove that women are mistreated in Islam; Islam is as it does. Jesus said a tree is known by its fruit. A Good tree brings good fruit and a corrupt tree brings corrupt fruit. Just the fact that the Quran says to withhold the marriage bed and beat your woman proves that abuse goes on in Islam. Emotional and physical abuse is happening now to woman, because of Islam. Woman must suffer the same penalties as men, but only get half the rewards. It has nothing to do with the God of the Bible or Jesus. Islam's god and jesus are not the same God and Jesus of the Bible!!!!!!!!!!!!"
ANSWER: That's right you have to prove they are mistreated in Christianity. The actions of others can not conclude that Islam accepts nor teachings such things, that would mean that I could judge Christianity according to the actions of priests that rape and molest little children, have I any right to say that all Christians believe that this is correct?? We need to judge something according to the evidence provided and the arguments presented. Im glad the Quran isn't corrupted then Lol. No doubt there are abusive husbands just as there are all across the globe, but you cannot prove it's a violent beating. Emotional and Physical abuse is happening every where doesn't mean Islam accepts such things. Of course men and women will receive the same penalties according to their actions, can you show me any evidence that says that women get half the reward, cause the Quran says otherwise:
QURAN: 33:35
Indeed, the Muslim men and Muslim women, the believing men and believing women, the obedient men and obedient women, the truthful men and truthful women, the patient men and patient women, the humble men and humble women, the charitable men and charitable women, the fasting men and fasting women, the men who guard their private parts and the women who do so, and the men who remember Allah often and the women who do so - for them Allah has prepared forgiveness and a great reward.
There is only One God Burninglight, the same God that revealed the Psalms, Torah, Ingeel, and Quran.
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Burninglight
- Guru
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- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:40 am
Post #495
Sura 5:71: "Say, O People of the Book! You are not (founded) on anything UNTIL you PERFORM the TORAH and the GOSPEL, and what was revealed to you from your Lord." This verse is talking about me. The torah and Gospel were revealed to me. All is preformed through Jesus Christ the author and finisher of my faith.HaLi8993 wrote: Burniglight
QUOTE: "The Bible states it was Isaac that Abraham was to sacrafice, but the big question here is why??? It doesn't sound logical that God would ask such a thing until you think that it was a shadow and type of What God has done by sacraficing His only beloved son on the cross for our wicked sins. What ever made you think it was Ishmael?"
ANSWER: Christians claim that it was Isaac to be sacrificed however as Muslims we believe it was Ismael which is closer to the truth according to all the evidence. Abraham prayed to God to grant him a righteous son. Hence God granted Abraham his first born which was Ismael. The name itself means "to hear", God had heard Abraham's prayer. This is evident in the Quranic verse below:
QURAN 37:100-102
" 'O my Lord! grant me a righteous (son)!' So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear. Then when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, He said: 'O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!' (The son) said: 'O my father! Do as thou art commanded: Thou wilt find me, if Allah so wills one practising patience and constancy!'
The Bible claims that Abraham offered his son Isaac for sacrifice, and the Quran claims that he offered Ismael, who was 13 years older than Isaac for sacrifice. So we have the Bible's word against the Quran. Abrahim named his first son Ismael because God heard his prayer and granted him his first born son Ismael. Abrahim was happy to have been gifted with a son at such an old age that he chose to name him a name that would symbolize his patience and gratefulness that God had answered his long awaited prayer.
Abraham was 86 when Ishmael was born. He adored Ishmael and loved him dearly. When one looks at the evidence at hand Ismael being 13 years older than Isaac and the fact that Abraham loved Ismael dearly it only makes sense that he wanted to sacrifice his own son for God giving Him the only precious thing he had.
Moreover Isaac was Abraham's second son born of Sarah, he was also blessed and became the ancestor of the Jewish people:
QURAN: 37:111-112
"For he [Abraham] was one of our believing Servants. And we gave him the good news [a second-born son to come] of Isaac - a Prophet - One of the Righteous.
QUOTE: "We now only have God's mercy and forgiveness through Christ. He that has the son has life; he that has not the son has not life but the wrath of God abides on him. Even when God sends the wicked to hell and a firey torment; He is still love. God's hate is greater than any man's love; God's weakness is stronger than any man's strength! All things God does is out of love"
ANSWER: We only have God's Mercy, you don't need to go through Jesus (peace be upon him) to get to God. Why don't you ask God directly? Does this mean God had no Mercy or forgiveness prior to the advent of Jesus (peace be upon him)??
QUOTE: "God cannot do anything wrong; he is prefect and right all the time. God rejecting Ishmael as the child of promise is love. Ishmael was blessed but he was no prophet or spokesman for God ever nor was any of his descendants. That is the God's honest truth"
ANSWER: Where is your evidence that Ismael is not a Prophet no where in the bible does it say he was not a Prophet, also where does it say God rejected him??? According to Genesis 21:13 Ishmael is also blessed, and therefore also included in God's promise.
Genesis 21:13
Of the son of the maidservant (i.e. Ishmael) I will make a great nation because he is thy seed.
QUOTE: "I don't have to prove that women are mistreated in Islam; Islam is as it does. Jesus said a tree is known by its fruit. A Good tree brings good fruit and a corrupt tree brings corrupt fruit. Just the fact that the Quran says to withhold the marriage bed and beat your woman proves that abuse goes on in Islam. Emotional and physical abuse is happening now to woman, because of Islam. Woman must suffer the same penalties as men, but only get half the rewards. It has nothing to do with the God of the Bible or Jesus. Islam's god and jesus are not the same God and Jesus of the Bible!!!!!!!!!!!!"
ANSWER: That's right you have to prove they are mistreated in Christianity. The actions of others can not conclude that Islam accepts nor teachings such things, that would mean that I could judge Christianity according to the actions of priests that rape and molest little children, have I any right to say that all Christians believe that this is correct?? We need to judge something according to the evidence provided and the arguments presented. Im glad the Quran isn't corrupted then Lol. No doubt there are abusive husbands just as there are all across the globe, but you cannot prove it's a violent beating. Emotional and Physical abuse is happening every where doesn't mean Islam accepts such things. Of course men and women will receive the same penalties according to their actions, can you show me any evidence that says that women get half the reward, cause the Quran says otherwise:
QURAN: 33:35
Indeed, the Muslim men and Muslim women, the believing men and believing women, the obedient men and obedient women, the truthful men and truthful women, the patient men and patient women, the humble men and humble women, the charitable men and charitable women, the fasting men and fasting women, the men who guard their private parts and the women who do so, and the men who remember Allah often and the women who do so - for them Allah has prepared forgiveness and a great reward.
There is only One God Burninglight, the same God that revealed the Psalms, Torah, Ingeel, and Quran.
Sura 32:23: "We did indeed aforetime give the Book to Moses: Be not then in doubt of its REACHING (THEE): And we made it a guide to the Children of Israel."
Why do you doubt it reaching you? The same Isaac that was recorded when the Torah was first documented says the same now as it did then. The original always comes first then the counterfeit.
I guess the significance is whether you believe it is Isaac or Ishmael. Abraham sacrificing his son because he was the closest think to him doesn't sound logical. Why aren't Muslim doing that today? But Being a shadow and type of God sacrificing his only beloved son pulls the story together.
Post #496
Burninglight
QUOTE: Sura 5:71: "Say, O People of the Book! You are not (founded) on anything UNTIL you PERFORM the TORAH and the GOSPEL, and what was revealed to you from your Lord." This verse is talking about me. The torah and Gospel were revealed to me. All is preformed through Jesus Christ the author and finisher of my faith.
ANSWER: lol, that's not what the verse says this is what it says:
QURAN 5:71
And they thought there would be no [resulting] punishment, so they became blind and deaf. Then Allah turned to them in forgiveness; then [again] many of them became blind and deaf. And Allah is Seeing of what they do.
This verse is in reference to Allah reminding us that He took the covenant and pledges from the children of Israel to hear and obey Him and His Messenger. They broke these pledges and covenants and followed their lusts and desires instead of the law, and whichever part of the law they agreed with, they took it. Otherwise, they abandoned it, if it did not conform to their desires.
This is why Allah said, "Whenever there came to them a Messenger with what they themselves desired not - a group of them they called liars, and others among them they killed. They thought there will be no Fitnah (trial or punishment) so they became blind and deaf" thinking that they would suffer no repercussions for of the evil that they committed. Consequently, they were blinded from the truth and became deaf, incapable of hearing the truth. For these reasons they were unable to be guided by it. Allah forgave that, then "yet they became blind and deaf" again, Allah has perfect knowledge of what they do and whomever among them deserves the guidance and whomever deserves misguidance.
Besides following the Torah and the Injeel means following the Prophet (peace be upon him) which was prophesied in both the Torah and Injeel.
QUOTE: "Sura 32:23: "We did indeed aforetime give the Book to Moses: Be not then in doubt of its REACHING (THEE): And we made it a guide to the Children of Israel."
Why do you doubt it reaching you? The same Isaac that was recorded when the Torah was first documented says the same now as it did then. The original always comes first then the counterfeit"
ANSWER: This is what the verse reads Burninglight:
QURAN: 32:23
And We certainly gave Moses the Scripture, so do not BE IN DOUBT OVER HIS MEETING. And we made the Torah guidance for the Children of Israel.
Your changing the passage Burninglight. This does not say "Reaching Thee" lol
God gave the book the Towrah to His servant and Messenger Moses (peace be upon him).
When Allah said:
"so do not BE IN DOUBT OVER HIS MEETING" it is referring to Muhammad (peace be upon him) when he saw Moses and met with him on the Night of Isra. God gave Moses the Scripture and made it a guidance for the Children of Israel.
Therefore it has reached me that your changing the meaning and context of the Quranic verses, no mention of Isaac in this verse lol.
QUOTE: "I guess the significance is whether you believe it is Isaac or Ishmael. Abraham sacrificing his son because he was the closest think to him doesn't sound logical. Why aren't Muslim doing that today? But Being a shadow and type of God sacrificing his only beloved son pulls the story together."
ANSWER: The amount of tampering in the Gospel suggests it is Isaac because if indeed the original Gospel was here today it would testify against you. The reason Christians want to believe that it is Isaac is so they don't believe in the Prophet (peace be upon him), but all one needs to do is look at the way in which things have been changed and manipulated in the course of History to realize this. Why isn't it logical in your opinion? The problem is there is no truth in him being the beloved son of God that was sacrificed for our sins. When God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son it was a test of faith. Seeing as you believe that Moses should reach you, the Old Testament clearly and directly refutes the salvation through trinity concept. In the book of Isaiah - to Israel the Lord says, I am your God, I will gather your descendants, beside me there is no Savior, you are my witnesses:
Isaiah 43:11
"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour"
Then my question to you is, how is this verse in support and agreement with the New Testament about Salvation? Hence these contradictions cannot be ignored considering they are considered one of the most important topics according to Christianity.
QUOTE: Sura 5:71: "Say, O People of the Book! You are not (founded) on anything UNTIL you PERFORM the TORAH and the GOSPEL, and what was revealed to you from your Lord." This verse is talking about me. The torah and Gospel were revealed to me. All is preformed through Jesus Christ the author and finisher of my faith.
ANSWER: lol, that's not what the verse says this is what it says:
QURAN 5:71
And they thought there would be no [resulting] punishment, so they became blind and deaf. Then Allah turned to them in forgiveness; then [again] many of them became blind and deaf. And Allah is Seeing of what they do.
This verse is in reference to Allah reminding us that He took the covenant and pledges from the children of Israel to hear and obey Him and His Messenger. They broke these pledges and covenants and followed their lusts and desires instead of the law, and whichever part of the law they agreed with, they took it. Otherwise, they abandoned it, if it did not conform to their desires.
This is why Allah said, "Whenever there came to them a Messenger with what they themselves desired not - a group of them they called liars, and others among them they killed. They thought there will be no Fitnah (trial or punishment) so they became blind and deaf" thinking that they would suffer no repercussions for of the evil that they committed. Consequently, they were blinded from the truth and became deaf, incapable of hearing the truth. For these reasons they were unable to be guided by it. Allah forgave that, then "yet they became blind and deaf" again, Allah has perfect knowledge of what they do and whomever among them deserves the guidance and whomever deserves misguidance.
Besides following the Torah and the Injeel means following the Prophet (peace be upon him) which was prophesied in both the Torah and Injeel.
QUOTE: "Sura 32:23: "We did indeed aforetime give the Book to Moses: Be not then in doubt of its REACHING (THEE): And we made it a guide to the Children of Israel."
Why do you doubt it reaching you? The same Isaac that was recorded when the Torah was first documented says the same now as it did then. The original always comes first then the counterfeit"
ANSWER: This is what the verse reads Burninglight:
QURAN: 32:23
And We certainly gave Moses the Scripture, so do not BE IN DOUBT OVER HIS MEETING. And we made the Torah guidance for the Children of Israel.
Your changing the passage Burninglight. This does not say "Reaching Thee" lol
God gave the book the Towrah to His servant and Messenger Moses (peace be upon him).
When Allah said:
"so do not BE IN DOUBT OVER HIS MEETING" it is referring to Muhammad (peace be upon him) when he saw Moses and met with him on the Night of Isra. God gave Moses the Scripture and made it a guidance for the Children of Israel.
Therefore it has reached me that your changing the meaning and context of the Quranic verses, no mention of Isaac in this verse lol.
QUOTE: "I guess the significance is whether you believe it is Isaac or Ishmael. Abraham sacrificing his son because he was the closest think to him doesn't sound logical. Why aren't Muslim doing that today? But Being a shadow and type of God sacrificing his only beloved son pulls the story together."
ANSWER: The amount of tampering in the Gospel suggests it is Isaac because if indeed the original Gospel was here today it would testify against you. The reason Christians want to believe that it is Isaac is so they don't believe in the Prophet (peace be upon him), but all one needs to do is look at the way in which things have been changed and manipulated in the course of History to realize this. Why isn't it logical in your opinion? The problem is there is no truth in him being the beloved son of God that was sacrificed for our sins. When God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son it was a test of faith. Seeing as you believe that Moses should reach you, the Old Testament clearly and directly refutes the salvation through trinity concept. In the book of Isaiah - to Israel the Lord says, I am your God, I will gather your descendants, beside me there is no Savior, you are my witnesses:
Isaiah 43:11
"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour"
Then my question to you is, how is this verse in support and agreement with the New Testament about Salvation? Hence these contradictions cannot be ignored considering they are considered one of the most important topics according to Christianity.
-
Burninglight
- Guru
- Posts: 1202
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:40 am
He is the Message
Post #497Peace be upon you:HaLi8993 wrote: Seeing as you believe that Moses should reach you, the Old Testament clearly and directly refutes the salvation through trinity concept. In the book of Isaiah - to Israel the Lord says, I am your God, I will gather your descendants, beside me there is no Savior, you are my witnesses:
Isaiah 43:11
"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour"
Then my question to you is, how is this verse in support and agreement with the New Testament about Salvation? Hence these contradictions cannot be ignored considering they are considered one of the most important topics according to Christianity.
I didn't understand your explanation of the Koranic verses, but the answer to this is it is not ignored nor is there any discrepancy. As Christians we believe Jesus is God's actual word. So this verse you quoted is Jesus except He wasn't called Jesus because the word wasn't yet made flesh. Muslims don't understand who Jesus really is. He is the word of God. (Jn. 1) In the beginning was the word; the word was with God and the word was God. Jesus is not a messenger; He is the message, and he is a descendant of Isaac not Ishmael. Jesus is the total spiritual sum of all things.
There is only one Savior. Jesus is the only one who saves us from our sin by taking our punishment on the cross. Of course, it does us no good unless we accept the gift by faith and let God's grace transform us into the creation He wants us to be. Jesus is the truth that sets us free to do what is right; not anything we want.
It is written: "For all have sinned and come short of God's glory. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. This is why Jesus said, "NO one comes to the father (God) except through me." He is the door, He's is the truth, He is the way, and there is no other Savior. Jesus wasn't saying I am the way for now and this time. He didn't say I show you the way to God. he said, "I am the way..." God said to Moses "I am that I am" (YHWH) "Before Abraham was I am...I and the father are one" The Jews wanted to stone Him. Why do you think? Muslims think Islam doesn't stone Jesus, but they do stone Him by rejecting the record and message God sent down from heaven who is Jesus Christ.
There is no forgiveness outside of Christ. Before Christ was born the people still had the word. But once that word manifests itself in living form and we reject Jesus as the word of God incarnate; then, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. The torah and Moses was the shadow and type of Christ. Jesus is the fulfillment of that! He didn't come to destroy the law and the prophets but fulfill and fulfill He did! Muslims cannot see this, because they process everything through the Qur'an.
The Jews used to sacrifice an unblemished lamb to atone for their sins. That was a shadow of Christ who was perfect and innocent sacrificed for us by God. Like Isaac was to be sacrificed by Abraham. Jesus is a descendant of Isaac. No one changed that in the Bible from Ishmael to Isaac. Ever Bible has it written this way, and always had it written that way. My question is what will you say to God on your last day when He asks to you personally: "Why did you reject the way I sent down from heaven to you?"
Respectfully,
Burninglight
Post #498
Burninglight
QUOTE: "I didn't understand your explanation of the Koranic verses, but the answer to this is it is not ignored nor is there any discrepancy. As Christians we believe Jesus is God's actually word. So this verse you quoted is Jesus except He wasn't called Jesus because the word wasn't yet made flesh. Muslims don't understand who Jesus really is. He is the word of God. (Jn. 1) In the beginning was the word; the word was with God and the word was God. Jesus is not a messenger; He is the message, and he is a descendant of Isaac not Ishmael. Jesus is the total spiritual sum of all things"
ANSWER: What exactly didn't you understand? I can clarify if need be. If this is the evidence you are using to claim that words were not made flesh - John 4:2:
"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God."
then you are forgetting that 30 books of the New Testament were written 150 to 300 years after Jesus (peace be upon him). So this verse is not valid.
Moreover Jesus (peace be upon him) in Luke 10:25-28 refuted trinity and openly admitted that your belief in the One True Living God alone will save you. So again we are witness to these contradictions.
Jesus (peace be upon him) was a Messenger like all previous Messengers that came with the same Message and was a descendant of Ismael.
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God" - this does not mean that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God at all. It cannot be assumed that Jesus (peace be upon him) was the word hence the word was God and became flesh therefore Jesus (peace be upon him) is God, because this statement that John reproduced in his gospel was uttered not by John but by A. Philo of Alexandria, years before Jesus (peace be upon him) or John were born. Therefore I highly doubt that Philo was referring to Jesus (peace be upon him) lol.
QUOTE: "There is only one Savior. Jesus is the only one who saves us from our sin by taking our punishment on the cross. Of course, it does us no good unless we accept the gift by faith and let God's grace transform us into the creation He wants us to be. Jesus is the truth that sets us free to do what is right; not anything we want."
ANSWER: Jesus (peace be upon him) never claimed to be "Lord and Saviour" to the Jews so how can Christians claim such a thing today? These verses are in opposition to this belief:
Hosea 13:4
Yet I [am] the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for [there is] no saviour beside me. (Hosea
Luke 1:47
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Jesus (peace be upon him) explicitly said:
I do not accept praise from men (John 5:41)
In vain do they worship me (Mark 7:7) and
The Father is greater than I (John 14:28)
QUOTE: "It is written: "For all have sinned and come short of God's glory. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. This is why Jesus said, "NO one comes to the father (God) except through me." He is the door, He's is the truth, He is the way, and there is no other Savior. Jesus wasn't saying I am the way for now and this time. He didn't say I show you the way to God. he said, "I am the way..."
ANSWER: You are taking your own scripture out of context, the verse ("I am the way, ...no one comes to the Father, but through me.") - clearly states that Jesus (peace be upon him) was the "way" to a mansion. He did not say that he is the destination. Yes he came with the truth and was the way at the time and believing in his Message was what would have saved those people at that time.
QUOTE: "There is no forgiveness outside of Christ. Before Christ was born the people still had the word. But once that word manifests itself in living form and we reject Jesus as the word of God incarnate; then, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. The torah was the shadow and type of Christ. Jesus is the fulfillment of that! He didn't come to destroy the law and the prophets but fulfill and fulfill He did! Muslims cannot see this because they process everything through the Qur'an."
ANSWER: There is no forgiveness for those that associate partners unto God. Where are you getting this from? If he didn't come to destroy the law why doesn't the New Testament abide by these laws? Why are you not following the laws of the OT?? Why have they been changed and abrogated?
QUOTE: "The Jews used to sacrifice an unblemished lamb. That was a shadow of Christ who was perfect and innocent sacrificed for us. Like Isaac was to be sacrificed by Abraham. Jesus is a descendant of Isaac. No one changed that in the Bible from Ishmael to Isaac. Ever Bible has it written this way, and always had it written that way. My question is what will you say to God on your last day when He asks to you personally: "Why did you reject the way I sent down from heaven to you?"
ANSWER: Maybe the Bible has it written this way but definitely not the Injeel, we have already seen how the Bible has been changed, as it does not coincide with the OT. The command from God for the sacrifice came before Isaac was born and when Ismael was of working age. The Bible clearly records that Ishmael the eldest Son was born when Abraham was 86 years old. Fourteen years later Isaac was born. Gen. 16:16 and 21:5.
The Bible repeatedly records that the Command from God to prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) was to Sacrifice "thy only son". This particular phrase "thy only son" could only be used when Abraham had only one son.
Burninglight that's a question you will need to answer. Lol.
QUOTE: "I didn't understand your explanation of the Koranic verses, but the answer to this is it is not ignored nor is there any discrepancy. As Christians we believe Jesus is God's actually word. So this verse you quoted is Jesus except He wasn't called Jesus because the word wasn't yet made flesh. Muslims don't understand who Jesus really is. He is the word of God. (Jn. 1) In the beginning was the word; the word was with God and the word was God. Jesus is not a messenger; He is the message, and he is a descendant of Isaac not Ishmael. Jesus is the total spiritual sum of all things"
ANSWER: What exactly didn't you understand? I can clarify if need be. If this is the evidence you are using to claim that words were not made flesh - John 4:2:
"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God."
then you are forgetting that 30 books of the New Testament were written 150 to 300 years after Jesus (peace be upon him). So this verse is not valid.
Moreover Jesus (peace be upon him) in Luke 10:25-28 refuted trinity and openly admitted that your belief in the One True Living God alone will save you. So again we are witness to these contradictions.
Jesus (peace be upon him) was a Messenger like all previous Messengers that came with the same Message and was a descendant of Ismael.
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God" - this does not mean that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God at all. It cannot be assumed that Jesus (peace be upon him) was the word hence the word was God and became flesh therefore Jesus (peace be upon him) is God, because this statement that John reproduced in his gospel was uttered not by John but by A. Philo of Alexandria, years before Jesus (peace be upon him) or John were born. Therefore I highly doubt that Philo was referring to Jesus (peace be upon him) lol.
QUOTE: "There is only one Savior. Jesus is the only one who saves us from our sin by taking our punishment on the cross. Of course, it does us no good unless we accept the gift by faith and let God's grace transform us into the creation He wants us to be. Jesus is the truth that sets us free to do what is right; not anything we want."
ANSWER: Jesus (peace be upon him) never claimed to be "Lord and Saviour" to the Jews so how can Christians claim such a thing today? These verses are in opposition to this belief:
Hosea 13:4
Yet I [am] the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for [there is] no saviour beside me. (Hosea
Luke 1:47
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Jesus (peace be upon him) explicitly said:
I do not accept praise from men (John 5:41)
In vain do they worship me (Mark 7:7) and
The Father is greater than I (John 14:28)
QUOTE: "It is written: "For all have sinned and come short of God's glory. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. This is why Jesus said, "NO one comes to the father (God) except through me." He is the door, He's is the truth, He is the way, and there is no other Savior. Jesus wasn't saying I am the way for now and this time. He didn't say I show you the way to God. he said, "I am the way..."
ANSWER: You are taking your own scripture out of context, the verse ("I am the way, ...no one comes to the Father, but through me.") - clearly states that Jesus (peace be upon him) was the "way" to a mansion. He did not say that he is the destination. Yes he came with the truth and was the way at the time and believing in his Message was what would have saved those people at that time.
QUOTE: "There is no forgiveness outside of Christ. Before Christ was born the people still had the word. But once that word manifests itself in living form and we reject Jesus as the word of God incarnate; then, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. The torah was the shadow and type of Christ. Jesus is the fulfillment of that! He didn't come to destroy the law and the prophets but fulfill and fulfill He did! Muslims cannot see this because they process everything through the Qur'an."
ANSWER: There is no forgiveness for those that associate partners unto God. Where are you getting this from? If he didn't come to destroy the law why doesn't the New Testament abide by these laws? Why are you not following the laws of the OT?? Why have they been changed and abrogated?
QUOTE: "The Jews used to sacrifice an unblemished lamb. That was a shadow of Christ who was perfect and innocent sacrificed for us. Like Isaac was to be sacrificed by Abraham. Jesus is a descendant of Isaac. No one changed that in the Bible from Ishmael to Isaac. Ever Bible has it written this way, and always had it written that way. My question is what will you say to God on your last day when He asks to you personally: "Why did you reject the way I sent down from heaven to you?"
ANSWER: Maybe the Bible has it written this way but definitely not the Injeel, we have already seen how the Bible has been changed, as it does not coincide with the OT. The command from God for the sacrifice came before Isaac was born and when Ismael was of working age. The Bible clearly records that Ishmael the eldest Son was born when Abraham was 86 years old. Fourteen years later Isaac was born. Gen. 16:16 and 21:5.
The Bible repeatedly records that the Command from God to prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) was to Sacrifice "thy only son". This particular phrase "thy only son" could only be used when Abraham had only one son.
Burninglight that's a question you will need to answer. Lol.
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Burninglight
- Guru
- Posts: 1202
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:40 am
Post #499
I don't believe God has or had partners. I don't know why you keep bringing that up. It is like you're the one who is insecure about it, because of Allah's three daughters prophesied by Muhammad hoping for their intercession. Don't say it is not true it is well documented. Besides, Muslim are divided the sunni and the Quranist who believe the second part of the shahadah is an association with Allah. Muslim have the association problems; that is why they keep bringing it up.HaLi8993 wrote: Burninglight
QUOTE: "I didn't understand your explanation of the Koranic verses, but the answer to this is it is not ignored nor is there any discrepancy. As Christians we believe Jesus is God's actually word. So this verse you quoted is Jesus except He wasn't called Jesus because the word wasn't yet made flesh. Muslims don't understand who Jesus really is. He is the word of God. (Jn. 1) In the beginning was the word; the word was with God and the word was God. Jesus is not a messenger; He is the message, and he is a descendant of Isaac not Ishmael. Jesus is the total spiritual sum of all things"
ANSWER: What exactly didn't you understand? I can clarify if need be. If this is the evidence you are using to claim that words were not made flesh - John 4:2:
"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God."
then you are forgetting that 30 books of the New Testament were written 150 to 300 years after Jesus (peace be upon him). So this verse is not valid.
Moreover Jesus (peace be upon him) in Luke 10:25-28 refuted trinity and openly admitted that your belief in the One True Living God alone will save you. So again we are witness to these contradictions.
Jesus (peace be upon him) was a Messenger like all previous Messengers that came with the same Message and was a descendant of Ismael.
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God" - this does not mean that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God at all. It cannot be assumed that Jesus (peace be upon him) was the word hence the word was God and became flesh therefore Jesus (peace be upon him) is God, because this statement that John reproduced in his gospel was uttered not by John but by A. Philo of Alexandria, years before Jesus (peace be upon him) or John were born. Therefore I highly doubt that Philo was referring to Jesus (peace be upon him) lol.
QUOTE: "There is only one Savior. Jesus is the only one who saves us from our sin by taking our punishment on the cross. Of course, it does us no good unless we accept the gift by faith and let God's grace transform us into the creation He wants us to be. Jesus is the truth that sets us free to do what is right; not anything we want."
ANSWER: Jesus (peace be upon him) never claimed to be "Lord and Saviour" to the Jews so how can Christians claim such a thing today? These verses are in opposition to this belief:
Hosea 13:4
Yet I [am] the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for [there is] no saviour beside me. (Hosea
Luke 1:47
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Jesus (peace be upon him) explicitly said:
I do not accept praise from men (John 5:41)
In vain do they worship me (Mark 7:7) and
The Father is greater than I (John 14:28)
QUOTE: "It is written: "For all have sinned and come short of God's glory. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. This is why Jesus said, "NO one comes to the father (God) except through me." He is the door, He's is the truth, He is the way, and there is no other Savior. Jesus wasn't saying I am the way for now and this time. He didn't say I show you the way to God. he said, "I am the way..."
ANSWER: You are taking your own scripture out of context, the verse ("I am the way, ...no one comes to the Father, but through me.") - clearly states that Jesus (peace be upon him) was the "way" to a mansion. He did not say that he is the destination. Yes he came with the truth and was the way at the time and believing in his Message was what would have saved those people at that time.
QUOTE: "There is no forgiveness outside of Christ. Before Christ was born the people still had the word. But once that word manifests itself in living form and we reject Jesus as the word of God incarnate; then, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. The torah was the shadow and type of Christ. Jesus is the fulfillment of that! He didn't come to destroy the law and the prophets but fulfill and fulfill He did! Muslims cannot see this because they process everything through the Qur'an."
ANSWER: There is no forgiveness for those that associate partners unto God. Where are you getting this from? If he didn't come to destroy the law why doesn't the New Testament abide by these laws? Why are you not following the laws of the OT?? Why have they been changed and abrogated?
QUOTE: "The Jews used to sacrifice an unblemished lamb. That was a shadow of Christ who was perfect and innocent sacrificed for us. Like Isaac was to be sacrificed by Abraham. Jesus is a descendant of Isaac. No one changed that in the Bible from Ishmael to Isaac. Ever Bible has it written this way, and always had it written that way. My question is what will you say to God on your last day when He asks to you personally: "Why did you reject the way I sent down from heaven to you?"
ANSWER: Maybe the Bible has it written this way but definitely not the Injeel, we have already seen how the Bible has been changed, as it does not coincide with the OT. The command from God for the sacrifice came before Isaac was born and when Ismael was of working age. The Bible clearly records that Ishmael the eldest Son was born when Abraham was 86 years old. Fourteen years later Isaac was born. Gen. 16:16 and 21:5.
The Bible repeatedly records that the Command from God to prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) was to Sacrifice "thy only son". This particular phrase "thy only son" could only be used when Abraham had only one son.
Burninglight that's a question you will need to answer. Lol.
The Bible was written 300 years after Christ? Please show your source.
After Abraham sent Hagar and Ishmael away, Isaac was his only son; once more, he was always his only son of promise since birth. Jesus is not a descendant of Ishmael. If he were, I'd be a Muslim too. The irony is Muslim means one who submits to God, but that is not what Muslims do.
I didn't say Jesus was the destination. I said he was not a messenger of God; He is God's message, and He is the only one who leads us to our eternal destination and the only one who is the author and finisher of our faith.
Jn 5) God judges no man, but He has committed all judgment unto the son so that they honor the son the same as the father. He that doesn't honor the son the same as the father, honors not the father who sent Him (or sent His word). IOW, if we don't honor the word of God (Jesus) the same as we honor God, we are not honoring God.
The NT reveals the OT.
I am not misrepresenting the Scripture. Jesus wasn't saying I am the way to the mansion; He said. "No man comes to the father (God) but through me." That is what is clear. Maybe, a little reading comprehension might help in this case. lol
PBUY
Post #500
Burninglight
QUOTE: "I don't believe God has or had partners. I don't know why you keep bringing that up. It is like you're the one who is insecure about it, because of Allah's three daughters prophesied by Muhammad hoping for their intercession. Don't say it is not true it is well documented. Besides, Muslim are divided the sunni and the Quranist who believe the second part of the shahadah is an association with Allah. The Bible was written 300 years after Christ? Please show your source.
After Abraham sent Hagar and Ishmael away, Isaac was his only son; once more, he was always his only son of promise. Jesus is not a descendant of Ishmael. If he was, I'd be a Muslim too. The irony is Muslim means one who submits to God, but that is not what Muslims do"
ANSWER: Forward your well documented evidence Burninglight so we can examine it. I have already refuted you about this before but I would be more than happy to do it again. Yes I am aware there are different sects in Islam, but there can only be one that is on the straight path following the true teachings of God and adhering to the truth. This was already told to us by Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Here is your source you requested:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14526a.htm
The command for sacrifice came before Isaac was born, it's up to you to prove what you say. Muslims don't submit to God??, lol
QUOTE: "I didn't say Jesus was the destination. I said he was not a messenger of God; He is God's message, and He is the only one who leads us to our eternal destination and the only one who is the author and finisher of our faith.
Jn 5 God judges no man put has committed all judgment unto the son so that they honor the son the same as the father. He that doesn't honor the son the same as the father, honors not the father who sent Him (Or sent His word). IOW, if we don't honor the word of God the same as we honor God we are not honoring God. The NT reveals the OT.
I am not misrepresenting the Scripture. Jesus wasn't saying I am the way to the mansion; He said. "No man comes to the father (God) but through me." That is what is clear. Maybe, a little reading comprehension might help in this case"
ANSWER: He Certainly isn't God lol, He only came with God's words and Message, of course he is the Messenger of God.
As for John 5:22-23
The verse does not imply or suggest the same honoring should be given to the Son as the Father. The verse says that both of them equally deserve the right of being honored, however this doesn't mean the honor is equal. Because to honor the Son is to honor the Father. This is like the verse John 14:6-10 where Jesus (peace be upon him) says:
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us. 9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Jesus (peace be upon him) did not mean that people who have literally seen him have seen the Father because we all know that no one has ever seen God:
1 John 4:12
12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
Rather what Jesus (peace be upon him) meant was that if they knew him and acknowledged him for who he was then they acknowledged the Father.
So basically both Jesus (peace be upon him) and the Father deserve honor. But Jesus (peace be upon him) did not say that the same honor should be given to both of them.
I think a little reading comprehension is required on your part Burninglight cause if we read from the beginning of this chapter, we would find that just before Jesus spoke these words, he said:
"In my Father's house are many mansions (dwelling places); if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a mansion (a dwelling place) for you."
What else would we expect a prophet of God to say except "I am the 'way to God's mercy"? That is his job. That is what a prophet does. It is why God chose him in the first place, in order to guide to the mercy of God.
This is further confirmed in John 10:9 where Jesus (peace be upon him) tells us that he is "the door" to "the pasture." In other words, he is the "prophet" who guides his people to "heaven" Once again, this is the message of Islam.
Furthermore Jesus (peace be upon him) said:
"Not every one that says to me(Jesus); 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of my Father, who is in heaven."
Hence believing in Jesus (peace be upon him) is not enough to enter heaven rather it is obeying the commands of God.
QUOTE: "I don't believe God has or had partners. I don't know why you keep bringing that up. It is like you're the one who is insecure about it, because of Allah's three daughters prophesied by Muhammad hoping for their intercession. Don't say it is not true it is well documented. Besides, Muslim are divided the sunni and the Quranist who believe the second part of the shahadah is an association with Allah. The Bible was written 300 years after Christ? Please show your source.
After Abraham sent Hagar and Ishmael away, Isaac was his only son; once more, he was always his only son of promise. Jesus is not a descendant of Ishmael. If he was, I'd be a Muslim too. The irony is Muslim means one who submits to God, but that is not what Muslims do"
ANSWER: Forward your well documented evidence Burninglight so we can examine it. I have already refuted you about this before but I would be more than happy to do it again. Yes I am aware there are different sects in Islam, but there can only be one that is on the straight path following the true teachings of God and adhering to the truth. This was already told to us by Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Here is your source you requested:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14526a.htm
The command for sacrifice came before Isaac was born, it's up to you to prove what you say. Muslims don't submit to God??, lol
QUOTE: "I didn't say Jesus was the destination. I said he was not a messenger of God; He is God's message, and He is the only one who leads us to our eternal destination and the only one who is the author and finisher of our faith.
Jn 5 God judges no man put has committed all judgment unto the son so that they honor the son the same as the father. He that doesn't honor the son the same as the father, honors not the father who sent Him (Or sent His word). IOW, if we don't honor the word of God the same as we honor God we are not honoring God. The NT reveals the OT.
I am not misrepresenting the Scripture. Jesus wasn't saying I am the way to the mansion; He said. "No man comes to the father (God) but through me." That is what is clear. Maybe, a little reading comprehension might help in this case"
ANSWER: He Certainly isn't God lol, He only came with God's words and Message, of course he is the Messenger of God.
As for John 5:22-23
The verse does not imply or suggest the same honoring should be given to the Son as the Father. The verse says that both of them equally deserve the right of being honored, however this doesn't mean the honor is equal. Because to honor the Son is to honor the Father. This is like the verse John 14:6-10 where Jesus (peace be upon him) says:
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us. 9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Jesus (peace be upon him) did not mean that people who have literally seen him have seen the Father because we all know that no one has ever seen God:
1 John 4:12
12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
Rather what Jesus (peace be upon him) meant was that if they knew him and acknowledged him for who he was then they acknowledged the Father.
So basically both Jesus (peace be upon him) and the Father deserve honor. But Jesus (peace be upon him) did not say that the same honor should be given to both of them.
I think a little reading comprehension is required on your part Burninglight cause if we read from the beginning of this chapter, we would find that just before Jesus spoke these words, he said:
"In my Father's house are many mansions (dwelling places); if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a mansion (a dwelling place) for you."
What else would we expect a prophet of God to say except "I am the 'way to God's mercy"? That is his job. That is what a prophet does. It is why God chose him in the first place, in order to guide to the mercy of God.
This is further confirmed in John 10:9 where Jesus (peace be upon him) tells us that he is "the door" to "the pasture." In other words, he is the "prophet" who guides his people to "heaven" Once again, this is the message of Islam.
Furthermore Jesus (peace be upon him) said:
"Not every one that says to me(Jesus); 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of my Father, who is in heaven."
Hence believing in Jesus (peace be upon him) is not enough to enter heaven rather it is obeying the commands of God.
