Allah, Gabriel & Muhammad are one?

[Burninglight]

Why do Muslims attack the Christian trinity? They have there own in many ways. There are the three daughters of Allah also known as "the flying cranes whose intercession is hoped for." This is a verse that Uthman abrogated from the Quran. It was a hard thing for Uthman to leave in the Quran after Muhammad's death. Allah had to cancel out Muhammad's Satanic verse. No prophet ever made a mistake like this before Muhammad's time. How could he get away with it? These videos make an argument that the unholy trinity of Islam is Allah, Gabriel and Muhammad. It states they are one and the same. If this is so, do Muslims attack the Christianity trinity only to turn a blind eye to their own unholy trinity?

[A Troubled Man]

We can split the first group into:

i) Some mountains contain roots, and these roots are described as being part of the mountain (Wiki says: Thus the continental crust is normally much thicker under mountains ( sometimes called "mountain roots"))

ii) What a mountain is shaped like when it has roots
http://www.cas.umt.edu/geosciences//fac ... ryRoot.gif
http://islamzpeace.files.wordpress.com/ ... -roots.jpg
iii) What a peg looks like
iv) The similarity in appearance of a peg in the ground and a mountain with roots

Now tell me which group you have a problem with and why.

Quran 31: 10 He hath created the heavens (Skies) without supports (pillars) that ye can see, and hath cast into the earth firm Mountains/Hills, so that it quake not with you; and He hath dispersed…

Quran 78: 6-7 Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse, And the mountains as pegs (anchor)?

We see a simple example, the mountains firm so that the Earth does not shake with us.

From the original claim, we can see that mountains were referred to as pegs in the sense of anchors that were supposed to have been placed on earth so the earth doesn't shake (earthquake).

Since mountains don't stop earthquakes or the earth from shaking along with us, we can see that the Quran was wrong.

[Peace]

@Burninglight:

You have grave misconceptions of Christianity. We believe in one God; not three different gods who are one in purpose with different physical attributes.

Is Jesus God? Is the Father God? Are they the same? 3 simple questions that I believe you will have trouble with in light of the Biblical scriptures.

We believe that God is Spirit; He is Holy; therefore, He is the Holy Spirit. Gabriel is not The Holy Spirit; he is an ministering angel messenger.

Cool, so what's or who is the Spirit of Truth? That we supposedly don't receive. Isn't God Truth?

Jesus is God's word incarnate. In the beginning the word was with God and the word was God. Jn 1. The word wasn't always called Jesus, but Jesus was always the word of God. Jesus is all that God is, but not all there is to God!

So the Word is what? Is the Word the message of God?

Why God has made His word flesh and His Spirit Truth /Holy or why he has made them distinct persons I don't understand, but I am not commanded to understand it.

OK I get it now, some sort of way to justify the different 'forms' of God in the trinity. I respect your belief. I thought God was one entity? If this is the case, then the Word and the Spirit are different physical beings. They are different entities that form one entity - God.

If there are different forms but they unite to form one, then why does one entity pray to another? Why does Jesus pray to the Father if he is only a 'part' of the Father? How is the 'Word' the literal begotten 'son' of God? Who is God here? the Father? So the Word is the begotten son of God (as if God begets like animals)? How does one 'part' of God eat, sleep and then die?

In Luke 9:20-21 we find:

But who say ye that I am? Peter answered saying, "The Christ of God, and Jesus straightly charged them and commanded them to tell no man that thing."

also in:

And behold, one came and said to him (Jesus), Good teacher, what good things shall I do that I may have eternal life? So he (Jesus) said to him, 'Why do you call me good? - No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into eternal life, keep the commandments. - Mathew 19:16-17

There is no commandment that says worship Jesus, but there is one that says to worship God alone.

In light of the above, if Jesus (peace be upon him) is the 'Word' i.e. 'part of the Father', why does he describe himself as 'not Good' and only God is good (the Father)? Why does Jesus (peace be upon him) cry out on the cross "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Doesn't sound like he is 'part' of the One who 'forsook' him?

Isn't this a tiny bit confusing? Wouldn't it just be much simpler to say there is one God, that no-one has seen, and He sent Prophets (peace be upon them), some with books some without, to warn mankind? Wouldn't that make more sense, then a person to who believes a virgin to be the mother of her 'creator'?

If Christians don't understand this, Muslim know infinitely less.

You are right, if the people who justify it can't understand it, then Muslims (believers in one and only one God) will never understand it.

Finally, if Allah and Muhammad didn't understand and knew less about the Christian concept of the trinity than the Christians themselves, what makes you think you can explain any better?

Allah means God by the way, so of course God knows about the 'concepts' that you prophesize about Him. I am not here to 'explain', I simply want to 'understand'.

The only thing i see that relates to one in purposes and 3 different beings is Allah, Muhammad and Gabriel who are, IMHO.

Nope, God has a different purpose than the Prophets (peace be upon them) who have different purposes then Gabriel (peace be upon him). Contrast this with what Christians believe. Please answer my questions above.

Islam is confusion

One God, many Prophets, one message. Confusing?

Contrast this with:

3-in-1 God, Son of God is one of those, Virgin who gave birth to a 'word' that is flesh and bones yet her Creator. Holy Spirit, Jesus and God all different beings but the same.

....

Gabriel is a messenger as all angels are, but Muhammad is called Allah's messenger. I thought Gabriel was his messenger? How can that be? Muhammad is really a messenger of a messenger????

Not so confusing, Gabriel is a messenger in that he sends God's commands (message) to the Prophets then the Prophets send the message to the people.

So Fedex can send to UPS that sends to me! Not rocket science. Contrast this with a Son that created me, is God, yet is not....

Hope this helped

[Burninglight]

@Burninglight:

You have grave misconceptions of Christianity. We believe in one God; not three different gods who are one in purpose with different physical attributes.

Is Jesus God? Is the Father God? Are they the same? 3 simple questions that I believe you will have trouble with in light of the Biblical scriptures. If there are different forms but they unite to form one, then why does one entity pray to another? Why does Jesus pray to the Father if he is only a 'part' of the Father? How is the 'Word' the literal begotten 'son' of God? Who is God here? the Father? So the Word is the begotten son of God (as if God begets like animals)? How does one 'part' of God eat, sleep and then die?

In Luke 9:20-21 we find:

But who say ye that I am? Peter answered saying, "The Christ of God, and Jesus straightly charged them and commanded them to tell no man that thing."

also in:

And behold, one came and said to him (Jesus), Good teacher, what good things shall I do that I may have eternal life? So he (Jesus) said to him, 'Why do you call me good? - No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into eternal life, keep the commandments. - Mathew 19:16-17

There is no commandment that says worship Jesus, but there is one that says to worship God alone.

In light of the above, if Jesus (peace be upon him) is the 'Word' i.e. 'part of the Father', why does he describe himself as 'not Good' and only God is good (the Father)? Why does Jesus (peace be upon him) cry out on the cross "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Doesn't sound like he is 'part' of the One who 'forsook' him?

There is no commandment saying don't worship Jesus; in fact, unlike other men of God Jesus didn't stop people from worshipping Him and the angels were commanded to worship Him. Worship only belongs to God.

Do the Scriptures say that He is God? Look at Heb 1 God is calling Jesus God. God didn't seer Jesus like animals and humans. Jesus always existed but not as the son of man. He did as the word of God. How can God make His Holiness and word distinct persons? I don't know. Can you tell me how God can be everywhere at the same time and live in the past, present and future at the same time knowing all things such as our thoughts, words and actions, having all the grains of sand numbered and the hairs on our head counted and know every star by name or how He creates something from nothing? Answer these then I 'll tell you about the trinity.
Your questions and comments are really dishonest. How can I expect more from you than can be expected from your god who is no God at all except for a god of deception, yes, a deceiver. I'll prove your dishonesty. First, you mine quote from the Bible by twisting Jesus' word to mean something different than he intended. He didn't say don't tell anyone I am Christ of God because it wasn't true.

IMO, you are purposely taking it out of context to support the Qur'an. Jesus didn't say don't tell anyone because it wasn't true. Look at Mat. 16: 15 “But what about you?� he asked. “Who do you say I am?�
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.�
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[d] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven.� 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

We believe that God is Spirit; He is Holy; therefore, He is the Holy Spirit. Gabriel is not The Holy Spirit; he is an ministering angel messenger.

Cool, so what's or who is the Spirit of Truth? That we supposedly don't receive. Isn't God Truth?

I have already told you, but you cannot understand, because we don't not share the same God. You are from "the best of Deceivers" We have established that is Islam's Allah. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth and is God.

Jesus is God's word incarnate. In the beginning the word was with God and the word was God. Jn 1. The word wasn't always called Jesus, but Jesus was always the word of God. Jesus is all that God is, but not all there is to God!

So the Word is what? Is the Word the message of God?

Not what, but who. Jesus is not God's messenger; He is the Message!

Why God has made His word flesh and His Spirit Truth /Holy or why he has made them distinct persons I don't understand, but I am not commanded to understand it.

OK I get it now, some sort of way to justify the different 'forms' of God in the trinity. I respect your belief. I thought God was one entity? If this is the case, then the Word and the Spirit are different physical beings. They are different entities that form one entity - God.

Isn't this a tiny bit confusing? Wouldn't it just be much simpler to say there is one God, that no-one has seen, and He sent Prophets (peace be upon them), some with books some without, to warn mankind? Wouldn't that make more sense, then a person to who believes a virgin to be the mother of her 'creator'?

God's ways are not ours. It is written: "As high as the heavens are from the earth so are His ways from ours and His thoughts from ours." If you lean to your own understanding, it leads to death!

If Christians don't understand this, Muslim know infinitely less.

You are right, if the people who justify it can't understand it, then Muslims (believers in one and only one God) will never understand it.
.

All of us justify what we cannot understand. Can you answer the questions I asked above? Do you understand how God created the heavens yet yoiu justify it? You are not honest.

Finally, if Allah and Muhammad didn't understand and knew less about the Christian concept of the trinity than the Christians themselves, what makes you think you can explain any better?

Allah means God by the way, so of course God knows about the 'concepts' that you prophesize about Him. I am not here to 'explain', I simply want to 'understand'..

Do you really? Then tell God the truth and ask that you can only see Jesus as a messenger, but if He is more show me. If you really want understanding, yoiu'll get it. Seek and you shall find

The only thing i see that relates to one in purposes and 3 different beings is Allah, Muhammad and Gabriel who are, IMHO.

Nope, God has a different purpose than the Prophets (peace be upon them) who have different purposes then Gabriel (peace be upon him). Contrast this with what Christians believe. Please answer my questions above.

Islam is confusion

[Peace]

@A Troubled Man:

I'm being totally honest, your post made me laugh a little. PLEASE don't tell me that is how your going to address my list! Just quoting it? ha

Anyways, Ill try and be civil:

We can split the first group into:

i) Some mountains contain roots, and these roots are described as being part of the mountain (Wiki says: Thus the continental crust is normally much thicker under mountains ( sometimes called "mountain roots"))

ii) What a mountain is shaped like when it has roots
http://www.cas.umt.edu/geosciences//fac ... omagnetics...
http://islamzpeace.files.wordpress.com/ ... -roots.jpg
iii) What a peg looks like
iv) The similarity in appearance of a peg in the ground and a mountain with roots

Now tell me which group you have a problem with and why.

Please digest this list for me and show me your thought process!

From the original claim, we can see that mountains were referred to as pegs in the sense of anchors that were supposed to have been placed on earth so the earth doesn't shake (earthquake).

Quran 31: 10 He hath created the heavens (Skies) without supports (pillars) that ye can see, and hath cast into the earth firm Mountains/Hills, so that it quake not with you; and He hath dispersed…

Quran 78: 6-7 Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse, And the mountains as pegs (anchor)?

Several points:

1) The verses are in separate Surahs, so whether the Earth shakes or not specifically because of Mountains resembling 'pegs' we will not know.

2) You did not address my list.

3) It has not been proven that Mountains do not prevent Crust instability, or Earthquakes - In fact, I have shown you an article from the Geological society where Dr Ted Nield believes otherwise. http://www.geolsoc.org.uk/page6565.html

4) You did not address my list - did I say this one already?

Since mountains don't stop earthquakes or the earth from shaking along with us, we can see that the Quran was wrong.

Prove it, and for the love of everything beautiful, please address my list.

[Peace]

@Burninglight:

There is no commandment saying don't worship Jesus; in fact, unlike other men of God Jesus didn't stop people from worshipping Him and the angels were commanded to worship Him. Worship only belongs to God.

Second Commandment:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.

Why the Catholic religion decided to replace this with "You shall not take the name of the LORD, your God, in vain." makes it kind of obvious. Do you believe Jesus (peace be upon him) was God, or sent by God?

Do the Scriptures say that He is God? Look at Heb 1 God is calling Jesus God.

God is calling Jesus God, who is God??!!?

Also when reading Heb. 1 I come across:

Heb (1:6): But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."

2 Points:

1) Who is talking? Who gives the command to the Angels to worship Him? Is it God, or is Jesus, himself giving the Angels to worship Jesus?

2) There are many other 'firstborns' in the Bible, isn't that contradictory? What does firstborn mean?

Exodus 4:22, "Israel is my son, even my firstborn;"

Jeremiah 31:9, "...and Ephraim is my firstborn;"

How many first-borns does God have?

Anyways, back to point.

God didn't seer Jesus like animals and humans. Jesus always existed but not as the son of man. He did as the word of God.

This is also something I can't understand, Son of Man? or Son of God? and how is he son of Man? wouldn't it be son of women? Mary was not a man (peace be upon her).

Matthew (8:20): "And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no-where to lay His head."

Matthew (12:40): "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

These verses actually remind me of several problems.

1) Jesus is describing himself as son of Man, yet he has no father. Also the genealogy of Jesus (peace be upon him) in the Bible can be easily put aside as the product of human imagination since:
i) Jesus did not have a father so listing the genealogy of Jesus (peace be upon him) through males doesn't really make sense, where is Mary in this list? and if he is the Son of God, where is God in this list?
ii) Both the genealogies of Jesus (peace be upon him) in Luke and in Matthew are not the same.
iii) When we actually examine the genealogies we arrive at scientific inaccuracies (with the names dating back to Adam we conclude the Bible states that man first appeared on Earth in the 38th century BC, according to Luke's version of course) - I am willingly to elaborate on the historical impact of such statements and the details on how this was calculated if you ask

2) Jesus did not spend 3 days and 3 nights on Earth, but he stayed one day and two nights according to the Bible. We know Jesus was put in the sepulchre just before sunset on Friday (Good Friday) ans was found missing before sunris on Sunday (Easter). Even if we s-t-r-e-t-c-h the time frame a bit, one can say that Jesus spent 3 days in earth, but there is absolutely NO way he spent 3 nights!
The Gospels are specific when telling us that it was "before sunrise" on Sunday morning that Mary Magdalene went to the tomb of Jesus (peace be upon him) and found it empty. There are many inconsistencies as you can see.

Sorry I got kind of carried away, each point just pulls me into another into another and I can keep going on about the Bible and its imaginative authors.

How can God make His Holiness and word distinct persons? I don't know. Can you tell me how God can be everywhere at the same time and live in the past, present and future at the same time knowing all things such as our thoughts, words and actions, having all the grains of sand numbered and the hairs on our head counted and know every star by name or how He creates something from nothing? Answer these then I 'll tell you about the trinity.

When it comes to the nature of God, yes we can never understand Him. But when it comes to the nature of your very scripture, we can question every contradiction, statement and imaginative descriptions. I am not asking WHY or HOW can God make His holiness and word separate (which honestly, a sane person should always be asking especially if God is described as One, but with a son), I am asking why doesn't your Bible say that clearly? 'Trinity' is never mentioned in the Bible, and we can literally go on for days about the 'hints' at such a doctrine in other verses. Verses like:

John (5:7) - "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one."

Where in the Revised Standard Version of the Bible (R.S.V.) revised by 32 Christian scholars of the highest eminence backed by 50 different co-operating denominations, this verse which is the keystone of the Christian faith has been removed as an interpolation, as a fabrication and as a concoction.

I know this is off topic, but everything just keeps reminding me of other problems lol; I suggest you read about the Council of Nicea 325 C.E. and how the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were imposed for political purposes under the Emperor Constantine, and not by Jesus.

Your questions and comments are really dishonest. How can I expect more from you than can be expected from your god who is no God at all except for a god of deception, yes, a deceiver.

I want the translation that you pulled this fabrication out from...

I'll prove your dishonesty. First, you mine quote from the Bible by twisting Jesus' word to mean something different than he intended. He didn't say don't tell anyone I am Christ of God because it wasn't true.

I am not twisting the meaning or taking it out of context, I am simply reading it. Everyone is free to read Luke 9, with special attention from 17:27 to get the full picture. Care to explain why Jesus told Peter not to tell anyone that he is the Christ of God?

IMO, you are purposely taking it out of context to support the Qur'an. Jesus didn't say don't tell anyone because it wasn't true. Look at Mat. 16: 15 “But what about you?� he asked. “Who do you say I am?�

I am not taking it out of context as its context doesn't even do the verse justice, you should accuse me of taking something out of context when its meaning changes when it is taken out of context. Also, I am not doing this to support the Qur'an (which surprisingly is always the end result) but instead to show you its contradiction with other Biblical verses like the one you so eloquently showed.

You should not take 'Son' to mean the literal Son of God as in the Bible God has many sons and children. We are all the children of son in a figurative sense, not animal sense. Christians then tend to say but Jesus is the begotten son, then I point to:

Psalm (2:7): "...Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

Is God talking to Jesus here? Nope, He is talking to David!

We also read:

Luke (4:41): "And demons also came out of many, crying out and saying, "You are the Christ, the Son of God!" And He, rebuking them, did not allow them to speak, for they knew that He was the Christ"

Why would Jesus 'rebuke' the demons if they were speaking the truth?

It is not fitting of God to 'beget' - which is an animal act. In the Qur'an it says:

"It is not befitting to [the majesty of] Allah that he should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter He only says to it "Be," and it is" - The Noble Qur'an (19:35)

I have already told you, but you cannot understand, because we don't not share the same God. You are from "the best of Deceivers" We have established that is Islam's Allah.

Nope we haven't, I want that translation!!

The Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth and is God.

Please elaborate what do you mean by world? Aren't we of this world? Isn't God's Creation just as submissive and under his control as we are? So why wouldn't He send His spirit to creation, but He would to humanity?

Not what, but who. Jesus is not God's messenger; He is the Message!

What?! So when Moses (peace be upon him) preached the ten commandments, and he had the tablets in His hands written by God i.e. the word of God, then he literally had 'Jesus'? Why doesn't the Bible say this? How can Jesus literally 'BE' the message? Doesn't he HAVE the message?

God's ways are not ours. It is written: "As high as the heavens are from the earth so are His ways from ours and His thoughts from ours." If you lean to your own understanding, it leads to death!

I hope you mean death of intellect, or death of soul, not literal death, although death of soul would kill you...lol

Anyways, Yes His ways are His, and we can't relate God to creation. "And there is none like unto Him." - Noble Qur'an (112:4), however, why does God eat, sleep, die, answer the call to nature, 'repent like some sort of sinner in the OT', beget sons like an animal of creation and get 'tired' and need to 'rest' after He creates the universe? The Biblical narrative of God sounds a lot like creation to me.

All of us justify what we cannot understand. Can you answer the questions I asked above? Do you understand how God created the heavens yet yoiu justify it? You are not honest.

By 'it' here I did not mean 'God' Himself, I meant the textual doctrine that Christians preach, and the explanation of the contradictions within it. Not contradictions of reality (i.e. how can the spirit be separate from the word in separate persons...) as our understanding is limited, but contradictions in the actual explanation (e.g. we have never heard or seen the spirit of God, yet later we hear it...)

Do you really? Then tell God the truth and ask that you can only see Jesus as a messenger, but if He is more show me. If you really want understanding, yoiu'll get it. Seek and you shall find

You are correct, I also ask you to do the same. But we should also read the opposing arguments and make an effort to be 'guided' and not just wait for God.

Nope, God has a different purpose than the Prophets (peace be upon them) who have different purposes then Gabriel (peace be upon him). Contrast this with what Christians believe. Please answer my questions above.

Islam is confusion

What is confusing about a messenger that sends to a messenger? Like If I get an e-mail from my friend, his e-mail account (Gmail for instance) would be his messenger for his 'message' and my email account (Hotmail for example) would be another messenger and would display for me his 'message'. Not hard or confusing.

Try explaining the trinity to anyone below 10 years of age, and when your done, say God is One...


I look forward to your digestion of my arguments.

[A Troubled Man]

Please digest this list for me and show me your thought process!

YOUR personal list is irrelevant, we have already dealt with the Quran's verse that we found was wrong.

[Burninglight]

Please digest this list for me and show me your thought process!

YOUR personal list is irrelevant, we have already dealt with the Quran's verse that we found was wrong.

I whole heartly agree.

[Peace]

@A Troubled Man:

YOUR personal list is irrelevant, we have already dealt with the Quran's verse that we found was wrong.

I'm sorry, no we haven't, can you please show me on what page you addressed the verse? You merely post articles on the formation of Mountains while I post articles on the fact that fold mountains are described as having roots.

I do not even know what you don't agree with or what your problem with the explanation is that is why I made a very simple list that can address the exact point you are having trouble with.

I personally believe you are afraid to address my list.

For all other readers, I made this list so that we can both arrive at an understanding of where the disagreement is and thus centralize our argument around our differences, not make vague claims:

We can split the first group into:

i) Some mountains contain roots, and these roots are described as being part of the mountain (Wiki says: Thus the continental crust is normally much thicker under mountains ( sometimes called "mountain roots"))

ii) What a mountain is shaped like when it has roots
http://www.cas.umt.edu/geosciences//fac ... omagnetics...
http://islamzpeace.files.wordpress.com/ ... -roots.jpg
iii) What a peg looks like
iv) The similarity in appearance of a peg in the ground and a mountain with roots

Now tell me which group you have a problem with and why.

@Burninglight:

Please digest this list for me and show me your thought process!

YOUR personal list is irrelevant, we have already dealt with the Quran's verse that we found was wrong.

I whole heartly agree.

lol, be reminded that I am still waiting for your digestion of my first lengthily argument about your confusion on the Qur'an and a refresher on the OT and NT's authenticity and historical preservation. As well as the second lengthily argument above where I discuss Biblical contradictions and the fallacy of the trinity.

As for my and 'A Troubled Man's' argument I believe you will support anyone who is arguing with a Muslim without judging or even reading the arguments presented. If you believe he has addressed my points already and my list is irrelevant then show me on which page he refuted the verse so that we can dissect his 'argument', and why you believe the list that is supposed to clear things up for us irrelevant.

I look forward to both of your responses, take care!

[A Troubled Man]

For all other readers, I made this list...

Exactly, which is why it is irrelevant to the Quran verses that were shown to be wrong.

[Peace]

@A Troubled Man:

For all other readers, I made this list...

Exactly, which is why it is irrelevant to the Quran verses that were shown to be wrong.

I said:

For all other readers, I made this list so that we can both arrive at an understanding of where the disagreement is and thus centralize our argument around our differences, not make vague claims:

The debate is in your hands now, if you don't wish to continue in a mature way then so be it. I have made my points clear, I have even asked for evidence on your part for your supposed 'refutation'.

I have a lot of time, but not enough to waste on you. If you wish to continue please address my points or at least show me where you addressed them previously? And if not, address my list that will help me understand your disagreement.

Take care 'A Troubled Man'