AU replies to the "War on Christmas"

[USIncognito]

I'm not sure if this is the correct subforum to place this in, but it seems right since the culture warriors strum und drang smells of political motivation. I'm on the Americans United for Seperation of Church and State mailing list and this open letter from Barry Lynn to Jerry Falwell was in my inbox today. I thought I'd share it, and see if there are any comments.

Dear Jerry:

Heres some news: There is no "war on Christmas!"

Ive seen you on various television news shows claiming that there is but, in fact, there simply isnt. Even as I write this, millions of Americans are erecting Christmas trees and nativity scenes at their homes, and thousands of churches are planning special Christmas services.

And, if I might say so, most of them are planning their lives without getting permission or encouragement from you.

I am deeply disappointed that you have chosen a time that Christians observe as a season of peace and good will and turned it into a time of religious divisiveness and community conflict. Your "Friend or Foe" campaign may be great for fund-raising and publicity, but it has sown discord unnecessarily.

Contrary to your wild allegations, Jerry, neither Americans United, nor any other civil liberties organization that I know of, is waging any kind of war on Christmas. The First Amendment of our Constitution ensures every Americans right to observe religious holidays or to refrain from doing so. We can wish each other a "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays," and its really none of your business which term we choose. We can call our decorated tree a "Christmas tree" or a "holiday tree," and thats our right. (We can observe the holidays of other traditions as well.)

I think we all know whats really going on with your campaign. You want an America where there is no separation of church and state and where your rather narrow interpretation of Christianity is forced on everyone. If you can convince Americans that their cherished Christmas traditions are under fire, you think maybe they will join your nefarious crusade to tear down the protective church-state wall that guarantees our freedoms.

Well, it wont work, Jerry. Americans are, by and large, a tolerant lot, and they are quite unlikely to join forces with someone like you who is so far out on the political and religious fringes. Many people remember the outrageous comments you made after the 9/11 terrorist assaults, suggesting that America had it coming because of our (in your opinion) sinful ways. They also remember your dire warning that Tinky Winky, a kids TV character, was brainwashing our children into homosexuality! You cant rehabilitate an image like that by trying to depict yourself as Father Christmas.

I am particularly outraged that you are attacking our public schools as part of your misguided project. Our public schools serve children from 2,000 different faith traditions and some who follow no spiritual path at all. They generally do a tremendous job of helping each of these students without imposing any particular religious viewpoint. They steer a careful course, broadly allowing student religious _expression while trying to avoid school endorsement of specific faiths. That means there are sometimes disagreements about what songs should be sung in the winter concert or what decorations should go in the hall. We can work through those decisions by applying common sense, the Constitution and plain old civility.

Thanks to the crusade by you and your allies, however, some of these schools are being targeted for venomous attacks. After the Alliance Defense Fund unfairly maligned a public school in New York for its holiday observance policies, education officials there received hateful mail of all sorts. One e-mail said "You are either bigoted Jews who hate Christians or mindless secularists."

Since I debated you about the Christmas issue on Fox News Channels "OReilly Factor," I have received 66 nasty e-mails, including two death threats. Observed one of my correspondents, "Hope you die soon. Merry Christmas."

Jerry, this is the kind of interfaith and community hostility that you are stirring up, and I implore you to stop it now. You are polluting the public square with animosity and anger. And at Christmas, of all times!! Have you no decency?

Youve dubbed your latest round of antics a "Friend or Foe" campaign. Well, Jerry, I am a friend of the Constitution and a foe of intolerance. You should be too.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays,

The Rev. Barry W. Lynn
Executive Director

PS: I saw on a couple of the news shows that you are again questioning my ministerial credentials. I believe the _expression that you used on Fox News Channels "The Big Story with John Gibson" is that I am "about as reverend as an oak tree" and that I never "preached in" a church. Drop me a line, Jerry, and Ill send you (again) a copy of my ministerial credentials from the United Church of Christ. And by the way, Id be happy to come to Thomas Road Baptist Church and deliver the sermon on the Sunday of your choice. Your congregation might like a change of perspective every now and then.

[1John2_26]

Your response is overwhelming to say the least. We part ways on some issues but your voluminous support for your denomination is great to see in a time when so mnay just shrink away to apathy or just accept everything as the way it goes. It boils down to where and what we Christians are willing to tolerate in changing the Bible's views for contemporary reasons. Please excuse me but Spong leaves me flat and my opinion of him cannot change. If anyone preaches or teaches that Adam and Eve are myth then Jesus must be excused from religious consideration. Spong's eductaional background is meaningless if he preaches a different Christ. You can get a D. Div. online with a credit card. Wouldn't you agree? That is why people like Barry Lynn and AU are so offensive to so many people that believe in Christ. What makes Christ always relevant is that He offers a rock and a foundation that cannot and will not change. Didn't He warn us that teachers would come along not sparing the flock? Lynn and Spong seem to be people to be very wary of. Since Spong is part of your church I'll leave him to some other topic another day.

[melikio]

You knd of wandered away from what I was talking about here. Love has nothing to do with what the AU stands for. They seem to be just about making sure Christians are put into a small very insignificant place. Christians should love their enemies but that of course is insulting to the people loved even though they are enemies, because they would know they have been called enemies. How many people do not want to hear what Christianty has to say anyway? Barry Lynn does not fool anyone anymore. His motives are easy to see.

I don't think it's so easy to dismiss the points made by the AU. Because of this thread, I've discovered them and read some of what they promote. And while I likely do not agree with every position they take, I do believe they are one of the many checks/balances to some religious extremists who would transform this nation into a theocracy (IF they but had the power to do so.)

And if you read what I said within the context of what I intended to say, you would understand that I wasn't necessarily attributing "love" to the AU itself. Honestly, I don't think I would attribute "love" to "Christianity" per se, but to Jesus Himself. Sadly, I believe/think the biggest flaw with the majority of Christians I've known and observed, is that they put almost anything else ABOVE the importance of loving people (unconditionally, as Christ loved the world itself).

Most "Christian" people DO however offer much LIP SERVICE where it concerns "Christian" love, but few are those who would put love before their political views ("conservative" and "fundamentalist" Christians prove that so very often). I rarely even debate that, because thousands of people I've spoken to about politics and relgion, have proven that to me. And most of the people who wrap their "Christianity" into politics, are about power/control... not "love". That was my main point initially and it still is.

For as much as Christians may hear of immorality or godlessness dronning through this society, it is also true that many who are not fundamentalist believers or "conservative" Christians can see HYPOCRISY of those who claim to be Jesus' followers parading through the streets in the name of "Jesus". How are people going to "listen" to Christians, if they are not loved BY them? People tend to know intuitively, that action speaks louder that mere words.

And that is the overall reason why I think the "power" of religion should be primarily relegated to that which is spiritual, not political. Not that faith, hope and love (even relgion) are negative things in MY view, but that people SHOULD be allowed to live outside the limited confines of the views I (or any other "Christian" might hold). Some extreme and/or fundamentalist "Christians" (and certian other religious people) want things THEIR way. It would be catastropic (as history has shown us) for the GOVERNMENT to favor those myriad views (one over the other).

I was a boy when I understood the importance of not having the GOVERNMENT support or hinder any particular relgious view/doctrine. That will never work. As far as I can tell, the AU is NOT as far off-base as some might think/believe.

-Mel-

[melikio]

http://www.au.org/site/News2?abbr=pr&pa ... _ctrl=1241

This is interesting.

-Mel-

[USIncognito]

I don't think it's so easy to dismiss the points made by the AU. Because of this thread, I've discovered them and read some of what they promote. And while I likely do not agree with every position they take, I do believe they are one of the many checks/balances to some religious extremists who would transform this nation into a theocracy (IF they but had the power to do so.)

I find that, much like John's comments, most people who dismiss AU's positions do so by denying Lynn's Christianity (check), or tangents about AU that center on emotional or populist arguments rather than the Constitution and 230 years of legal rulings (check).

I'm glad I you find out about them via this post. They're, unlike, say, even Bill O'Reilly, a pretty marginalized organization, despite having a modicum of clout in the legal arena. I too don't agree with some, if not many, of their positions, but their value and validity of position on many major church/state issues cannot be dismissed with ad hominems and red herrings.

[USIncognito]

Lynn on TV, never seems to be presenting his brand of Christianity as anything special.

http://www.ucc.org/aboutus/whatis.htm

Testimonies of faith rather than tests of faith. Because faith can be expressed in many different ways, the United Church of Christ has no formula that is a test of faith. Down through the centuries, however, Christians have shared their faith with one another through creeds, confessions, catechisms and other statements of faith. Historic statements such as the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed, the Heidelberg Catechism, the Evangelical Catechism, the Augsburg Confession, the Cambridge Platform and the Kansas City Statement of Faith are valued in our church as authentic testimonies of faith.

Falwell always seems to be very happy.

You mean like when he angrily condemned queers and witches for precipitating 9/11, or when she looks into the camera, shakes his finger and chastizes people who don't agree with President Bush? Maybe you confuse smug simmering "righteous anger" with happiness, but he's built his whole reputation on being a fire and brimstone preacher. I don't know how one could preach such a Gospel and not be at least "outraged."

I haven't heard Falwell misuse scripture as well. He always seems to use scripture accurately.

See his 9/11 comments. See any time he refers to evolution. See any time he refers to America being a theocracy.

[1John2_26]

I too believe that actions speak louder than words and that those actions should be the sole thing judged. That would put many issues in their proper category and keep out emotionalism and political power based manipulations. I also would have to agrre that at face valua at least, 9-11 could be seen as a biblical kind of action. God in the Old and New Testament uses evil armies and powerful events to judge His people. People that do not believe in the God of Israel would have thought that a volcano destroyed Sodom. But the Israelites were told the real story and the why of it. Even the people in Jerico city didn't know what was going on except it seems, a prostitute. Barry Lynn versus Jerry Falwell? I'll take Falwell probably eight out of ten times. But I believe my position is based on Melikos opinion that actions speak louder than words.

The article about President and First Lady Bush sending out Holiday Greeting cards is kind of stupid if you think about it. Bush is a secular President no matter what his personal views are. I'd bet that he sent out Chrstmas cards to his Christian friends. But, the war on Christmas? I see Lynn waging it. Especially on the O'Reilly factor.

[melikio]

I think in the case of any "war" on Christmas, that it mostly amounts to being perhaps inconvenienced in a cultural or social sense at best. NO ideas or philosophies can actually undo what Christianity means to followers (or Jesus' birth, despite the day observed).

I can relate in a social sense to how things once were vs. how they have become. And the absolute reality is that human beings are still the same. Better and worse things have come and gone, touched this world affected it and gone (as the effects fade, both quickly and slowly).

The true meaning of Christiamas is ETERNAL to me, period. It is not dependent upon how I celebrate Christmas, the placement of nativity scenes in public, "Christmas Sales" or any of the other cultural expressions we now believe have "meaning". Traditions and cultures evolve, but if something like John 3:16 (and other religious beliefs) is true in one's heart, then there is nothing that can undo that.

Because I was gay when I finally checked (over 30 years ago), and found that I couldn't change it (neither did prayer), I had to learn that there were challenges to faith period. What we see in the workings of human beings, is not guaranteed to stay the same or have some devastating effect upon true faith. And if anything, perhaps the present opposition to certain social aspects of Christmas serves as a crucible to test the very traditions many have accepted. And that is the reason I mentioned being "gay" above: If your faith hasn't been tested in some serious way, you can expect that it WILL be in the course of your life. This little test of today's Christmas "traditions" to me, is nothing compared to what I've endured as a man who considers himself a Christian (despite the fact that my situation draws more fire from those who claim to be "Christian").

Sure, the issue of being a homosexual Christian is different from that of "Christmas" being attacked/challenged, but the effect of that challenge in a social sense parallels what many people have endured. Faith, hope and love remain, and love is the most significant aspect of Christian faith. If people regard that earnestly, then it will be much more like "Christmas" 365 days a year; at least it has been to me.

You see, about 20 years ago, I found myself in the midst of what could be considered VERY traditional "Christmas" activities, and found them to be MEANINGLESS. It was disturbing (especially in the spiritual sense), and I had to search my faith actively that year. And I'll tell anyone, that what some call attacks today, are NOTHING like having the meaning of Christmas drop from one's heart, amidst the nativity scenes, Christmas trees, shopping, plans to see family or any other "social" activity related to the season.

Later in life, I trimmed all the crap down to remembering: That the birth of "Jesus" is significant to me period; ALL YEAR LONG. No one can "attack" that. The "Holiday Season" still has meaning to me, but mostly because it's a time to get together with close friends and family (love shared with them). Every symbol of Christianity could be removed from this secular society, and it would not UNDO the effect of what Jesus has done INSIDE of me as a human being. There may be spritual wars indeed, but the "nuclear options" in those battles are is faith, hope and love.

-Mel-

[USIncognito]

I too believe that actions speak louder than words and that those actions should be the sole thing judged. That would put many issues in their proper category and keep out emotionalism and political power based manipulations.

You must not be a fan of Pat Robertson then, or do you agree with people preaching the Gospel while using their ministry airplanes to assist Congolese dictators? And do you utterly lack a sense of irony? This whole "War on Christmas" wedge issue is based on nothing more than emotion and political (or fundraising) power?

I also would have to agrre that at face valua at least, 9-11 could be seen as a biblical kind of action. God in the Old and New Testament uses evil armies and powerful events to judge His people.

I thought Isreal and it's remnants were God's people. Are you suggesting that America are now part of Israel? And what message were we supposed to get from 9/11 - go out and shoot Sikh store clerks? Start a new Crusades against the Saracens? Burn queers and witches?

If you believe in that sort of garbage, than what conclusions can you draw from hurricane Katrina? The poor, disenfranchised and universally Christian blacks of New Orleans and the evangelical whites of Mississippi were devestated by it, but the sin city sections like the French Quarter were back in business within weeks. How can you believe in a God who punishes the faithful while allowing the sinful to get off scot free?

Oh, I see you don't, you're just selectively myopic...

People that do not believe in the God of Israel would have thought that a volcano destroyed Sodom. But the Israelites were told the real story and the why of it. Even the people in Jerico city didn't know what was going on except it seems, a prostitute.

The people most affected by Katrina are demographically the most likely to worship the God of Israel. New York City has the highest concentration of Jews outside of Israel. Why would God punish his faithful, while allowing the secularists on Long Island to go about their lives?

And you're not one of those folks obsessed with gay sex are you? When I consider homosexuality, which I don't that often, I rarely think of people actually engaged in sex acts, but it seems those people most opposed to gays tend to think of nothing but the sex. Oh, for the record, Sodom nor Gemorrha were destroyed. And Noah's Flood didn't happen. Those are just metaphorical myths meant to convey truths, not literal events.

Barry Lynn versus Jerry Falwell? I'll take Falwell probably eight out of ten times. But I believe my position is based on Melikos opinion that actions speak louder than words.

If you find smug, angry words more compelling than adhering to the law of the land, that's your problem, not Lynn's.

The article about President and First Lady Bush sending out Holiday Greeting cards is kind of stupid if you think about it. Bush is a secular President no matter what his personal views are. I'd bet that he sent out Chrstmas cards to his Christian friends. But, the war on Christmas? I see Lynn waging it. Especially on the O'Reilly factor.

Did you have an Ironyotomy? I mean seriously man. In one sentence you say "think about it," and in another you cite O'Reilly suggesting that noting the President sending Christmas cards that say "Happy Holidays" while there's all this bruhaha about it is stupid? Why doesn't O'Reilly include the President in his enemies list of those who are waging the War on Christmas?

And I'll take your bet. A lot of Christian friend/co-workers of the President have e-mail. Why don't you poll them to see who got Christmas Cards and post support for your hunch here?

[micatala]

Just a note to try and keep things as civil as possible, and avoid personal references, e.g.

Oh, I see you don't, you're just selectively myopic...

[1John2_26]

Thank you micatala. I wasn't even going to respond to his post. But now I will. Point for point.

1John2_26 wrote:
I too believe that actions speak louder than words and that those actions should be the sole thing judged. That would put many issues in their proper category and keep out emotionalism and political power based manipulations.

You must not be a fan of Pat Robertson then, or do you agree with people preaching the Gospel while using their ministry airplanes to assist Congolese dictators?

Roberstson feeds the poor and clothes them too. Lynn wages an endless war to silence Christians. "Fan" means fanatic. I am not a fanatic on Robertson. But he reaches out to people and Lynn does not.

And do you utterly lack a sense of irony? This whole "War on Christmas" wedge issue is based on nothing more than emotion and political (or fundraising) power?

Christians have good reasons to be wary of persecutions. That is all that is happening here. Everyone fundraises for whatever they want. Lynn too is using his religion to raise money except he does nothing to further the kingdom of God. I pity that guy on judgment day.

1John2_26 wrote:
I also would have to agrre that at face valua at least, 9-11 could be seen as a biblical kind of action. God in the Old and New Testament uses evil armies and powerful events to judge His people.

I thought Isreal and it's remnants were God's people. Are you suggesting that America are now part of Israel?

Christians are part of the remnant. I have no attachment to America other than my birth certificate and my taxes.

And what message were we supposed to get from 9/11 - go out and shoot Sikh store clerks?

Prove that Christians did anything or stop making wierd accusations. Blacks attacked Korean store owners during the Rodney King riots. ALL Blacks are at blame? Or felons?

Start a new Crusades against the Saracens? Burn queers and witches?

Just preach the truth. The Gospel has no violence in it to be meted out to anti-Christs. Lynn too.

If you believe in that sort of garbage, than what conclusions can you draw from hurricane Katrina?

Ever seen the porno in Pompei? A volcano took out those sickos.

The poor, disenfranchised and universally Christian blacks of New Orleans and the evangelical whites of Mississippi were devestated by it, but the sin city sections like the French Quarter were back in business within weeks.

That proves Satan was talking with God like he did in the book of Job. Now that book takes on a more current role.

How can you believe in a God who punishes the faithful while allowing the sinful to get off scot free?

Too many Lynn's and not enough preachers calling people to walk the walk.

Oh, I see you don't, you're just selectively myopic...

That would apply to a man like Lynn that has myopically chosen secualrism over God.

1John2_26 wrote:
People that do not believe in the God of Israel would have thought that a volcano destroyed Sodom. But the Israelites were told the real story and the why of it. Even the people in Jerico city didn't know what was going on except it seems, a prostitute.

The people most affected by Katrina are demographically the most likely to worship the God of Israel.

God chastising His own? Looks like it. The churches made a great impact on the poor and needy and Lynn's secular government is complicit in killing those poor people with its apathy. Lynn is a wierd Christian.

New York City has the highest concentration of Jews outside of Israel. Why would God punish his faithful, while allowing the secularists on Long Island to go about their lives?

Read the story about the people living around Noah. Their attitude and perception is back.

And you're not one of those folks obsessed with gay sex are you? When I consider homosexuality, which I don't that often, I rarely think of people actually engaged in sex acts, but it seems those people most opposed to gays tend to think of nothing but the sex.

Judging actions is easy. Judging the heart is not. In either case the rules are written in the Bible. It seems gays and lesbians are opposed to Christianity far more than the other way around. Everyone is a sinner in the Gospels except Jesus.

Oh, for the record, Sodom nor Gemorrha were destroyed. And Noah's Flood didn't happen. Those are just metaphorical myths meant to convey truths, not literal events.

You are presenting your opinion. OK. I have a differing opinion. Metaphor they are not.

1John2_26 wrote:
Barry Lynn versus Jerry Falwell? I'll take Falwell probably eight out of ten times. But I believe my position is based on Melikos opinion that actions speak louder than words.

If you find smug, angry words more compelling than adhering to the law of the land, that's your problem, not Lynn's.

I have written that Christians should embrace secularism because their political power is immense and they could do more for Christ in cementing freedoms to say anything anywhere. If I am seen as smug I am very sorry for that. But actions speak louder than words and Lynn should be judged on both.

1John2_26 wrote:
The article about President and First Lady Bush sending out Holiday Greeting cards is kind of stupid if you think about it. Bush is a secular President no matter what his personal views are. I'd bet that he sent out Chrstmas cards to his Christian friends. But, the war on Christmas? I see Lynn waging it. Especially on the O'Reilly factor.

Did you have an Ironyotomy? I mean seriously man. In one sentence you say "think about it," and in another you cite O'Reilly suggesting that noting the President sending Christmas cards that say "Happy Holidays" while there's all this bruhaha about it is stupid? Why doesn't O'Reilly include the President in his enemies list of those who are waging the War on Christmas?

The President is a Christian that reached out to a secular world. He did a good job. And, why does this O'reilly guy invoke such a hostile reaction in people? I have started watching him more often and he lets anyone come on his show.

And I'll take your bet. A lot of Christian friend/co-workers of the President have e-mail. Why don't you poll them to see who got Christmas Cards and post support for your hunch here?

I'm sure the President sent a Christmas card to his Christian friends. I have a photo of He and Laura. It says God Bless on it.

The fact is that AU and Lynn are being called on the crap. They don't like it and that is just too bad. Freedom of expression and freedom of speech goes both ways. If he can't take the heat he should stay out of the of the public forum.