Lets talk persecution...

[His Name Is John]

A large portion of these threads at the moment revolve around homosexuality and how they are being persecuted (not by the everyday person) by not having 'equal rights', now this is a worthy topic for debate, and if you have read some of these threads, you have no doubt come across my opinions about said matter.

But here is my problem with the whole debate. The homosexual community only 3.6 million LGBT people in the UK (the 'Government Actuary's Department' has estimated that by the year 2050 around 3.3 per cent of homosexuals aged 16 and over will be in registered civil partnerships, compared with a third of the heterosexual population who will be married. So the whole marriage debate about 3.3 million people (as far as the UK is concerned)).

Now, compare this to the 5.2 million Catholics.

I can tell several people (theists and atheists alike) are now expecting this to be a thread about how the every day Christian is persecuted in our society or something similar. Well, perhaps it kind of is. But before we jump to conclusions, lets look at the facts:

1. A Catholic cannot be Prime Minister
2. A Catholic cannot marry the King / Queen
3. Each year on the 5th of November, it is a tradition to burn an effigy of Guy Fawkes along with an effigy of the Pope

Now these things alone show a huge inequality and persecution.

Now the everyday man on the street probably has no problem with someone being a Catholic (they probably think every other priest is a pedophile, and the Vatican is corrupt, but have no problem with you believing what you do). The problem instead lies with tradition and the laws.

Catholics are being persecuted by unjust laws.

But when was the last time you saw the debate about this? The argument for gay-marriage is said to be an argument for 'equality', if this is true (which I think it generally is as far as intention at least), then why are people not also arguing for 'equality' allowing Catholics to become Prime Minister?

And while with the homosexual issue, the debate is ongoing, and many people (non-religious and non-gay) are still weighing it up, there is no reason why the Prime Minister should not be a Catholic. It means that the millions of people in this country cannot have a leader that shares their expression of the faith.

I would like those who are for 'equality' to prove they are, and start rallying for the Catholics as well as the homosexuals. Imagen if the law was that a homosexual couldn't be Prime Minister...

[connermt]

Gay people don't have to 'come out'. They can remain in the closet all they want and stay free of persecution.

As someone who is dealing with "coming out" right now in my life, I have a few things to say about this...

Today I had a breakdown because (1) I have been fighting my sexual orientation for the past year due to the fact that being gay is not acceptable to most people. (2) I have been questioning (try having an internal struggle) if I am gay or not because of the fact that my mom is trying to tell me that "it's a disease" or that "I'm brainwashed". (3) I could be alone for the rest of my life if I accept that I am gay, due to the fact that most people could never understand who I am, and the fact that I don't live in a city with a high gay population.

There you go...the reason I am having emotional/mental problems is due to the fact that I am repressing/ignoring my own sexual/gender orientation.

Of course you know you won't be able to please everyone all the time. It's a big step - one that not every gay person needs to make to be happy. But if you do "come out", you will almost be guaranteed to loose one or two people in your life as a friend. But you will also, almost certainly, gain others.
You may be alone the rest of your life if you're gay. Or you may not. You may also be alone the rest of your life if you're not gay as being "straight" doesn't guarantee anything other than "being straight".

It seems you can justify anything to yourself. You have to look at this logically, from all angles, and make the right decision for yourself, not others.

[Dantalion]

Gay people don't have to 'come out'. They can remain in the closet all they want and stay free of persecution.

wow...
just wow

so if gays don't want to be persecuted, they only have to not say that they're gay ?

another bigot point for theism!

you see kids, if you don't want that weird german guy to persecute you, you just remain here and don't let people know you're jewish!

or

you see girls
if you don't want the taliban to cut off your nose, just don't go to school!


massive freakin facepalm dude, you should be ashamed

[connermt]

Gay people don't have to 'come out'. They can remain in the closet all they want and stay free of persecution.

wow...
just wow

so if gays don't want to be persecuted, they only have to not say that they're gay ?

another bigot point for theism!

you see kids, if you don't want that weird german guy to persecute you, you just remain here and don't let people know you're jewish!

or

you see girls
if you don't want the taliban to cut off your nose, just don't go to school!


massive freakin facepalm dude, you should be ashamed

Agreed. Unfortuinately, that POV is one of many in the world today. We all need to work to change that incorrect perception for everyone - not just gay people.

[His Name Is John]

Gay people don't have to 'come out'. They can remain in the closet all they want and stay free of persecution.

As someone who is dealing with "coming out" right now in my life, I have a few things to say about this...

Today I had a breakdown because (1) I have been fighting my sexual orientation for the past year due to the fact that being gay is not acceptable to most people. (2) I have been questioning (try having an internal struggle) if I am gay or not because of the fact that my mom is trying to tell me that "it's a disease" or that "I'm brainwashed". (3) I could be alone for the rest of my life if I accept that I am gay, due to the fact that most people could never understand who I am, and the fact that I don't live in a city with a high gay population.

There you go...the reason I am having emotional/mental problems is due to the fact that I am repressing/ignoring my own sexual/gender orientation.

In reply to:

(1) - Just be celibate. You wont get bullied if you don't 'come out'.

(2) - Right, so you have conflicting emotions. Another reason not to 'come out'.

(3) - I don't see what this has to do with not 'coming out'.

Care to retract that last comment?

Nope.

I understand that you are having a large emotional struggle with this whole thing. While it should be taken seriously, I don't see how in any way it argues against what I was saying. If anything it argues for it...

Every problem you said you were having was about being scared of 'coming out', I only see that as more reason for you not to. Why should you tell everyone about your sexual orientation? What do you gain from doing so?

[Darias]

Gay people don't have to 'come out'. They can remain in the closet all they want and stay free of persecution.

As someone who is dealing with "coming out" right now in my life, I have a few things to say about this...

Today I had a breakdown because (1) I have been fighting my sexual orientation for the past year due to the fact that being gay is not acceptable to most people. (2) I have been questioning (try having an internal struggle) if I am gay or not because of the fact that my mom is trying to tell me that "it's a disease" or that "I'm brainwashed". (3) I could be alone for the rest of my life if I accept that I am gay, due to the fact that most people could never understand who I am, and the fact that I don't live in a city with a high gay population.

There you go...the reason I am having emotional/mental problems is due to the fact that I am repressing/ignoring my own sexual/gender orientation.

In reply to:

(1) - Just be celibate. You wont get bullied if you don't 'come out'.

(2) - Right, so you have conflicting emotions. Another reason not to 'come out'.

(3) - I don't see what this has to do with not 'coming out'.

Care to retract that last comment?

Nope.

I understand that you are having a large emotional struggle with this whole thing. While it should be taken seriously, I don't see how in any way it argues against what I was saying. If anything it argues for it...

Every problem you said you were having was about being scared of 'coming out', I only see that as more reason for you not to. Why should you tell everyone about your sexual orientation? What do you gain from doing so?

So if you lived in the Roman Empire when they threw Christians to the lions, the best way to avoid persecution would be to not declare your religious orientation - in other words, don't tell no one you're a Christian, and you'd be fine. Even if you did tell people you were Christian and then magically avoided arrest by the empire, what would you have to gain from doing so? You'd have no political rights and protections and you'd probably lose a lot of friends and family. Society would reject you, so your best bet would be to keep praying in your closet.




Now do you see how ridiculous your argument sounds?

[His Name Is John]

So if you lived in the Roman Empire when they threw Christians to the lions, the best way to avoid persecution would be to not declare your religious orientation - in other words, don't tell no one you're a Christian, and you'd be fine. Even if you did tell people you were Christian and then magically avoided arrest by the empire, what would you have to gain from doing so? You'd have no political rights and protections and you'd probably lose a lot of friends and family. Society would reject you, so your best bet would be to keep praying in your closet.




Now do you see how ridiculous your argument sounds?

I would have a choice, either to speak out and be open about my faith (in which case I have persecution), or stay quiet (in which case I would have no persecution, while I wait for others to slowly work at changing the laws).

I personally would choose to 'come out' about my faith (or at least I like to think I would) and help working to convert, and change the laws myself. But that is my choice, I know the laws and the feelings of the everyday person about Christians. I know what I would be getting myself into. I think the same applies to homosexuals.

I am not trying to say that persecution of the gay community is right, but rather I think it is very wrong. I just think that you could avoid all the persecution by simply not coming out. In the same way I could keep my faith secrete, you could keep your sexual preference secrete.