Is homosexuality an abomination?

anotheratheisthere · Post by **anotheratheisthere** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:33 am

Yes.

The Bible says that homosexuality is an abomination. (Leviticus 18-22)

On the same page, it uses the exact same word to describe eating shellfish. (Leviticus 11-10 and 11-11)

Please heed the word of God:

Being gay is an abomination.

Eating shrimp is an abomination.

Being gay is just as much an abomination as eating shrimp.

Eating shrimp is just as much an abomination as being gay.

If you ever ate a shrimp cocktail you committed as grievous a sin as the most pervert homosexual.

If you ever had gay sex, you committed as grievous a sin as the most pervert shrimp cocktail eater.

If you are a gay Christian who judges and condemns people for committing the abomination of eating lobster, then you're a hypocrite.

If you're a Christian who eats lobster and you judge and condemn people for committing the abomination of being gay, then you're a hypocrite.

Gay people and people who eat seafood are abominations! Both groups are disgusting! You make me sick! How can you POSSIBLY want to have gay sex and/or eat shrimp, clams, oysters and lobster? PERVERTS!

I think we should amend the Constitution to specify that marriage is between a man and a woman.

I think we should amend the Constitution to specify that anybody who eats lobster, shrimp, clams or oysters will be deported and/or waterboarded.

East of Eden · Post by **East of Eden** » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:30 am

Goat wrote:
East of Eden wrote:
Goat wrote:
East of Eden wrote:

Here you go:

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/early-te ... osexuality

"Throughout the majority of Christian history most theologians and Christian denominations have viewed homosexual behavior as immoral or sinful."
Wikipedia

Probably because the Bible says it is......

Can you show , well, something a little more in line with actual Catholic teaching, rather than a rather right winged personal web site .. Well, from what I see, 'Catholic Answers" doesn't have a good rep for being scholarly.
Ad hominem, without addressing the quotes from the church fathers, what you said you were interested in.

Not only that.. but much of those quotes are about sex with young boys.. . not homosexuality..
It said especially sex with young boys was prohibited, as was homosexual activity among adults.

Look, I don't enjoy talking about this so much, but it is the area where Christianity is being attacked, much as some tried to justify segregation in the past. Martin Luther said if you preach the Gospel in every area but the one where it is being challenged, you aren't really being faithful.

If you want to whine about 'ad homenin'.. I am not saying that they are wrong because they are catholic. I am saying they are not scholarly and wrong because the information the present is often not valid. That is the 'oh, that is an ad hominen'.

I could say by using them as a source, your doing the logical fallacy of 'appeal to authority'.

Yes, the authority is the early church fathers, what we were discussing. Is it your position that because those quotes were on a Catholic site they never really were said? You claimed the early church did not condemn homosexual activity, when I post quotes to the contrary, you complain about the site. An irrelevant red herring.

How about a scholarly piece from a non-evangelistic university. (I won't accept anything from the Dallas theological seminary for example).

By, your reasoning, I could dismiss such a source as 'biased'.

Getting back to the OP, the Bible does NOT say that being gay (or having same-sex attraction in itself) is an abomination, it says homosexual activity is an abomination. Similarly, having a temptation to alcoholism or adultery in themselves are not sins, giving in to the temptation is. It is always possible to do the will of God.

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:57 pm

East of Eden wrote:
Goat wrote:
East of Eden wrote:
Goat wrote:
East of Eden wrote:

Here you go:

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/early-te ... osexuality

"Throughout the majority of Christian history most theologians and Christian denominations have viewed homosexual behavior as immoral or sinful."
Wikipedia

Probably because the Bible says it is......

Can you show , well, something a little more in line with actual Catholic teaching, rather than a rather right winged personal web site .. Well, from what I see, 'Catholic Answers" doesn't have a good rep for being scholarly.
Ad hominem, without addressing the quotes from the church fathers, what you said you were interested in.

Not only that.. but much of those quotes are about sex with young boys.. . not homosexuality..
It said especially sex with young boys was prohibited, as was homosexual activity among adults.

Look, I don't enjoy talking about this so much, but it is the area where Christianity is being attacked, much as some tried to justify segregation in the past. Martin Luther said if you preach the Gospel in every area but the one where it is being challenged, you aren't really being faithful.

If you want to whine about 'ad homenin'.. I am not saying that they are wrong because they are catholic. I am saying they are not scholarly and wrong because the information the present is often not valid. That is the 'oh, that is an ad hominen'.

I could say by using them as a source, your doing the logical fallacy of 'appeal to authority'.
Yes, the authority is the early church fathers, what we were discussing. Is it your position that because those quotes were on a Catholic site they never really were said? You claimed the early church did not condemn homosexual activity, when I post quotes to the contrary, you complain about the site. An irrelevant red herring.

How about a scholarly piece from a non-evangelistic university. (I won't accept anything from the Dallas theological seminary for example).
By, your reasoning, I could dismiss such a source as 'biased'.

Getting back to the OP, the Bible does NOT say that being gay (or having same-sex attraction in itself) is an abomination, it says homosexual activity is an abomination. Similarly, having a temptation to alcoholism or adultery in themselves are not sins, giving in to the temptation is. It is always possible to do the will of God.

Well.. No.. it is not an appeal to the 'early church fathers'. Hint: Catholic.com is not the early church fathers... nor do they appear to properly show what their sources are in doing their claims.

Not only that.. again..abomination is a horrible translation of the word Toevah. Toevah means 'Ritualistically unclean'.. a woman menstruating would be toevah until she went into a mikvah . Eating shrimp is Toevah. .. as well as eating a bacon double cheeseburger. And, wearing a mixture of wool and linen.

Your sources bad translations, and out of context quotes do NOT show what the early church fathers thought.

So, tell me why I should accept the claims of Karl Keating about what the early church fathers said?

East of Eden · Post by **East of Eden** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:13 pm

Goat wrote:
East of Eden wrote:
Goat wrote:
East of Eden wrote:
Goat wrote:
East of Eden wrote:

Here you go:

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/early-te ... osexuality

"Throughout the majority of Christian history most theologians and Christian denominations have viewed homosexual behavior as immoral or sinful."
Wikipedia

Probably because the Bible says it is......

Can you show , well, something a little more in line with actual Catholic teaching, rather than a rather right winged personal web site .. Well, from what I see, 'Catholic Answers" doesn't have a good rep for being scholarly.
Ad hominem, without addressing the quotes from the church fathers, what you said you were interested in.

Not only that.. but much of those quotes are about sex with young boys.. . not homosexuality..
It said especially sex with young boys was prohibited, as was homosexual activity among adults.

Look, I don't enjoy talking about this so much, but it is the area where Christianity is being attacked, much as some tried to justify segregation in the past. Martin Luther said if you preach the Gospel in every area but the one where it is being challenged, you aren't really being faithful.

If you want to whine about 'ad homenin'.. I am not saying that they are wrong because they are catholic. I am saying they are not scholarly and wrong because the information the present is often not valid. That is the 'oh, that is an ad hominen'.

I could say by using them as a source, your doing the logical fallacy of 'appeal to authority'.
Yes, the authority is the early church fathers, what we were discussing. Is it your position that because those quotes were on a Catholic site they never really were said? You claimed the early church did not condemn homosexual activity, when I post quotes to the contrary, you complain about the site. An irrelevant red herring.

How about a scholarly piece from a non-evangelistic university. (I won't accept anything from the Dallas theological seminary for example).
By, your reasoning, I could dismiss such a source as 'biased'.

Getting back to the OP, the Bible does NOT say that being gay (or having same-sex attraction in itself) is an abomination, it says homosexual activity is an abomination. Similarly, having a temptation to alcoholism or adultery in themselves are not sins, giving in to the temptation is. It is always possible to do the will of God.

Well.. No.. it is not an appeal to the 'early church fathers'. Hint: Catholic.com is not the early church fathers... nor do they appear to properly show what their sources are in doing their claims.

Not only that.. again..abomination is a horrible translation of the word Toevah. Toevah means 'Ritualistically unclean'.. a woman menstruating would be toevah until she went into a mikvah . Eating shrimp is Toevah. .. as well as eating a bacon double cheeseburger. And, wearing a mixture of wool and linen.

Your sources bad translations, and out of context quotes do NOT show what the early church fathers thought.

How exactly does posting quotes from the early church fathers not show what the early church fathers thought?

What is clear is that only through massive denial can one say Christianity and the Bible have not condemned homosexual activity.

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:17 pm

East of Eden wrote:

How exactly does posting quotes from the early church fathers not show what the early church fathers thought?

What is clear is that only through massive denial can one say Christianity and the Bible have not condemned homosexual activity.

From the sections of quotes you did, those quotes did not seem to be talking were about homosexuality in specific.. they were talking about sexual immorality in general. You have to distort what was quoted to say it was ranting against homosexuality.

Since you can't seem to see that.. how about taking those quotes, one at a time, and looking at them in context.. with , if possible, an analysis of the original Greek or Latin.

East of Eden · Post by **East of Eden** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:53 pm

Goat wrote:
East of Eden wrote:

How exactly does posting quotes from the early church fathers not show what the early church fathers thought?

What is clear is that only through massive denial can one say Christianity and the Bible have not condemned homosexual activity.
From the sections of quotes you did, those quotes did not seem to be talking were about homosexuality in specific.. they were talking about sexual immorality in general.

Yes, and the Bible from front to back considers homosexual activity to be immoral.

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:20 pm

East of Eden wrote:
Goat wrote:
East of Eden wrote:

How exactly does posting quotes from the early church fathers not show what the early church fathers thought?

What is clear is that only through massive denial can one say Christianity and the Bible have not condemned homosexual activity.
From the sections of quotes you did, those quotes did not seem to be talking were about homosexuality in specific.. they were talking about sexual immorality in general.
Yes, and the Bible from front to back considers homosexual activity to be immoral.

Yet, one thing I will NOTE that you refuse to do is to examine the passages in context.. with an examination of the original language. For example, when I showed you the commentary about the passages in leviticus, you failed to respond to it in any depth. Nor, did you respond to the point about what the word translated by Christians as 'abomination' means. Ignoring points doesn't make your one liners any more convincing.

East of Eden · Post by **East of Eden** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:58 pm

Goat wrote:
East of Eden wrote:
Goat wrote:
East of Eden wrote:

How exactly does posting quotes from the early church fathers not show what the early church fathers thought?

What is clear is that only through massive denial can one say Christianity and the Bible have not condemned homosexual activity.
From the sections of quotes you did, those quotes did not seem to be talking were about homosexuality in specific.. they were talking about sexual immorality in general.
Yes, and the Bible from front to back considers homosexual activity to be immoral.

Yet, one thing I will NOTE that you refuse to do is to examine the passages in context.. with an examination of the original language. For example, when I showed you the commentary about the passages in leviticus, you failed to respond to it in any depth.

Cite"

Nor, did you respond to the point about what the word translated by Christians as 'abomination' means. Ignoring points doesn't make your one liners any more convincing.

You can twist the meaning of any word, but nowhere in the Bible does it portray homosexual activity in a positive light, or are you arguing otherwise?

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:39 pm

East of Eden wrote: Yes, and the Bible from front to back considers homosexual activity to be immoral.

This is not true. There are only a handful of references to homosexuality in the Bible. A good number of writers of the Bible make no mention at all to the subject of homosexuality. Thus it is a gross overstatement to declare that this teaching is in the Bible from front to back. Job, for example, has nothing to say about homosexuality.

East of Eden · Post by **East of Eden** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:58 pm

McCulloch wrote:
East of Eden wrote: Yes, and the Bible from front to back considers homosexual activity to be immoral.

This is not true. There are only a handful of references to homosexuality in the Bible. A good number of writers of the Bible make no mention at all to the subject of homosexuality. Thus it is a gross overstatement to declare that this teaching is in the Bible from front to back. Job, for example, has nothing to say about homosexuality.

From Genesis to I Corinthians it does, with the same consistent message. Did you think I meant from the first verse of Genesis to the last verse of Revelation?

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:21 pm

East of Eden wrote:
McCulloch wrote:
East of Eden wrote: Yes, and the Bible from front to back considers homosexual activity to be immoral.

This is not true. There are only a handful of references to homosexuality in the Bible. A good number of writers of the Bible make no mention at all to the subject of homosexuality. Thus it is a gross overstatement to declare that this teaching is in the Bible from front to back. Job, for example, has nothing to say about homosexuality.
From Genesis to I Corinthians it does, with the same consistent message. Did you think I meant from the first verse of Genesis to the last verse of Revelation?

Genesis 19
Leviticus 18 & 20
Possibly 1 Kings 14, 15, 22; 2 Kings 23
Romans 1
1 Corinthians 6
1 Timothy 1

There are 66 books in the Bible. I can find ten chapters in seven of these books that could be read as a condemnation of homosexuality. And some of those are ambiguous. Did I miss some? I think that given the amount of space given to this topic, that it is still an overstatement to declare that the Bible from front to back considers homosexual activity to be immoral.