Liberal Christians only believe some "fundamentalism?

[AlAyeti]

There are now political Christians wanting to "re-claim" Christianity from whatever the "Right" is, or has done to it. Claiming that their way of Christianity is more like what Jesus would want.

But many of these Liberal positions hold to funadamentalism on the poor, the needy and anti-war and violence, but oppose Biblical truth on many other issues.

Why do Liberal Christians deny the truths of the New Testament on marriage and children as defined by Jesus himself?

Liberals will teach about condom usage but decry the Biblical truth about abstaining from sex until marriage as something ignorant or intolerant?

Why are not Liberal Christians funding missionaries to go to Muslim and other countries to spread the Gospel exactly the way Jesus described and exactly the way it is presented in the Gospels?

How can Liberal Christians support a womans right to kill her unborn child and encourage a woman to go and do it, while at the same time, denying the same rights of choice on the matter be given equal recognition to the father of the child?

How and why can Liberal Christians call themselves Christians while only preaching and teaching some immutable Christian positions and not all?

[McCulloch]

or the fact that germs cause disease?

The point of the Bible is to bring us to salvation and reveal God's truth to us. But where it comments on something it should be held as an authority. We consider salvation God inspired because it's in God's word so therefor anything else in his word is likewise inspired and an authority. Because the Bible does not comment on every aspect of life doesn't mean that the areas that it does comment on are not accurate, specifically the creation account.

He called to himself his twelve disciples, and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every sickness. ... Then one possessed by a demon, blind and mute, was brought to him and he healed him, so that the blind and mute man both spoke and saw.

His disciples said to him, "You see the multitude pressing against you, and you say, Who touched me?" He looked around to see her who had done this thing. But the woman, fearing and trembling, knowing what had been done to her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth. He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace, and be cured of your disease."

Behold, a man from the crowd called out, saying, "Teacher, I beg you to look at my son, for he is my only child. Behold, a spirit takes him, he suddenly cries out, and it convulses him so that he foams, and it hardly departs from him, bruising him severely. I begged your disciples to cast it out, and they couldnt." Jesus answered, "Faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you and bear with you? Bring your son here." While he was still coming, the demon threw him down and convulsed him violently. But Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the boy, and gave him back to his father. They were all astonished at the majesty of God. ... He was casting out a demon, and it was mute. It happened, when the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke; and the multitudes marveled.

Now in Jerusalem by the sheep gate, there is a pool, which is called in Hebrew, "Bethesda," having five porches. In these lay a great multitude of those who were sick, blind, lame, or paralyzed, waiting for the moving of the water; for an angel of the Lord went down at certain times into the pool, and stirred up the water. Whoever stepped in first after the stirring of the water was made whole of whatever disease he had. A certain man was there, who had been sick for thirty-eight years. When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he had been sick for a long time, he asked him, "Do you want to be made well?" The sick man answered him, "Sir, I have no one to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, but while Im coming, another steps down before me." Jesus said to him, "Arise, take up your mat, and walk." Immediately, the man was made well, and took up his mat and walked. Now it was the Sabbath on that day. So the Jews said to him who was cured, "It is the Sabbath. It is not lawful for you to carry the mat." He answered them, "He who made me well, the same said to me, Take up your mat, and walk. " Then they asked him, "Who is the man who said to you, Take up your mat, and walk ?" But he who was healed didnt know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, a crowd being in the place. Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, "Behold, you are made well. Sin no more, so that nothing worse happens to you."

The Christian New Testament seems to teach that unclean spirits cause every disease and every sickness, blindness and muteness; that a demon causes convulsions; that faith cures disease; that an angel of the Lord stirring up water can magically cures diseases. Would it not have been better if the Bible had taught that even if Jesus could magically cure diseases, the truth is that spirits and demons do not cause disease and faith and sinlessness do not cure them?

[bernee51]

Would you really believe in God if he would reveal himself to you?

Funny you should ask that: the same question popped into my head during this morning's meditation. The answer I came up with was no. How would I know it was really god and not some other supernatural being just pretending to be?

You test the experience to see if it was consistent with the Bible.

Why not consistent with the koran, or the bhagavad gita, or the Urantia Book? They all talk about god.
The supernatural being who has appeared in front of me may be the god of the bible but is it the 'real' god?

But lets look at your 'scripture'.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but try the spirits to see if they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Yep - I've done that - I'm still not sure if it is god or a lesser supernatural doing a good impersonation

1 John 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God;

This supernatural being is claimng that indeed Jesus was an avatar of his...but it could be lying

1 John 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the antichrist you heard is coming, and even now is already in the world.

Same as in 4:2. - perhaps it is an antichrist that has appeared before me and is tryng to lure me to his cause.

BTW based on 4:3 there are many billions of antichrists - every single person who does not confess that Jesus has come in flesh and is of god is an antichrist.

Would you trust in Jesus?

Many of the supposed words of the alleged Jesus offer a valuable guide to life. Nothing more.

Jesus also claimed to be God, so if that's not true then he is a liar or a lunatic. Either of the later would offer no valuable guides to life.

Lord, liar or lunatic - another logical fallacy.

So as you don't have to ask - it is a logical fallacy because it excludes other possibilities.

Why did you tell me...doesn't it work if you don't tell me?

To show that I care. From my point of view the nicest thing I can do for a person is pray for them.

But telling me has no effect on the outcome. You know that I'm an atheist, and I do not believe in your god and I do not believe in that your prayer is going to change me one iota.

Telling me might make you feel warm and fuzzy but does absolutely nothing for me.

To show you 'care', why pray? why not just say 'I care'? It is much more honest.

C.S Lewis was asked if he prayed for his wife when she was dying of cancer. He replied in the affirmative and was asked if he believed it helped her. He replied that it didn't, but that t certainly helped him.

Prayer, for the most part, is for the benefit of the pray-er - not the prayed for..

[bernee51]

It has to do with whether or not their is a need for God. If life can happen without the supernatural then there's no necessity for the supernatural. As it stands now there's no alternative to a supernatural creation of life.

On this point, I thought I would ask you a question.

You state "As it stands now...".

What will happen to your god and your belief in it, if, sometime in the fiuture, a totally natural explanation is determined for the origins of the universe?

Would you still believe in god? If you would, why do you use the the above (fallacious) argument as proof of the existence of your god?

If not, why not just accept now that your god, like all the others over the millennia is a mythical being?

[redstang281]

Many historians, including secular, hold the Bible in high regard in terms of historic accuracy. But we've more or less went round and round on that already.

I must have missed that one. Please list a few secular historians who hold the Bible in high regard in terms of historic accuracy with regard to

1. The Creation
2. The Universal Flood
3. The Egyptian Plagues
4. The Exodus and Conquest of the land of the Canaanites with miracles (Red Sea, Walls of Jericho etc.)
5. Jesus' Resurrection

I didn't say the secular historians consider everything in the Bible literal history. The Bible is not only a spiritual book but also contains much of Jewish history and history of the ancient world that has been used by researchers to make archeological discovers. Because much of the Bible is supported in comparative historical records Christians feel confident in trusting the parts that are not while skeptics still insist that's unreasonable logic. But my point is that even secular historians accept at least some parts of the Bible as literal history and consider it to be accurate.

Not only that but we also have external evidence left to support them such as the imprint of the flood in our rock layers from hydrologic sorting.

This has been thouroughly discussed in other threads. My personal conclusion from reading both sides is that the the creationist version is flawed and unsupported.

Have you looked into Polystrate fossils?

Please post your evidence on one of the threads in the Science and Religion forum. Questions for Uniformitarianists or The firmament or Salinity of the sea rules out a young Earth or Age of the earth? or create a new Flood topic in Science and Religion.

Thanks, but I generally don't seek out debates on evolution topics any longer. It seems nearly impossible to show advocates that adaptation is not proof of molecules to man evolution and the whole debate centers around that misconception. I usually only address this topic if someone questions me while discussing something else.

Would you really believe in God if he would reveal himself to you? Would you trust in Jesus? Then I ask you to pray to him and tell him that. I believe he will respond. I have already prayed for you too.

This is off topic. Would you give up your belief in God if he fails to respond?

Man does not command God. God is not a charm in my pocket or a magic ring. As C.S. Lewis writers "He (Aslan) is not a tame lion". God acts according to his will. It is illogical to believe God does not exist if he doesn't do what I expect. If God doesn't do what I expect there is still the possibility that he chose not to for a reason only he knows. He knows the best plan and man does not.

[redstang281]

The Christian New Testament seems to teach that unclean spirits cause every disease and every sickness, blindness and muteness; that a demon causes convulsions; that faith cures disease; that an angel of the Lord stirring up water can magically cures diseases. Would it not have been better if the Bible had taught that even if Jesus could magically cure diseases, the truth is that spirits and demons do not cause disease and faith and sinlessness do not cure them?

I'm sorry but that's incorrect to say that the Bible teaches that all sickness is caused by demons. In fact the scripture draws a distinction between healing the sick and casting out demons.

Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. You have received freely, freely give.

[redstang281]

Would you really believe in God if he would reveal himself to you?

Funny you should ask that: the same question popped into my head during this morning's meditation. The answer I came up with was no. How would I know it was really god and not some other supernatural being just pretending to be?

You test the experience to see if it was consistent with the Bible.

Why not consistent with the koran, or the bhagavad gita, or the Urantia Book? They all talk about god.

Because in my example you're calling on the God of the Bible. If you're really seeking him he will not allow a false spirit to circumvent.

The supernatural being who has appeared in front of me may be the god of the bible but is it the 'real' god?

Because if God exists it stands to reason he would leave us some sort of tangible record of how to follow him. The Bible is the only item we have that even comes close to complying with such high standards.

But lets look at your 'scripture'.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but try the spirits to see if they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Yep - I've done that - I'm still not sure if it is god or a lesser supernatural doing a good impersonation

1 John 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God;

This supernatural being is claimng that indeed Jesus was an avatar of his...but it could be lying

So the being is creating a different Jesus, one who is lesser to himself, and attributing the life of the real Jesus Christ to him. In other words, the spirit denies the Bible's Jesus Christ, the supreme God, ever came in flesh because according to this being he doesn't exist to begin with.

1 John 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the antichrist you heard is coming, and even now is already in the world.

Same as in 4:2. - perhaps it is an antichrist that has appeared before me and is tryng to lure me to his cause.

BTW based on 4:3 there are many billions of antichrists - every single person who does not confess that Jesus has come in flesh and is of god is an antichrist.

Or more specifically that they are still under the power of the antichrist sense they have no experienced a spiritual rebirth.


1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says Jesus is a curse, and that no one can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Would you trust in Jesus?

Many of the supposed words of the alleged Jesus offer a valuable guide to life. Nothing more.

Jesus also claimed to be God, so if that's not true then he is a liar or a lunatic. Either of the later would offer no valuable guides to life.

Lord, liar or lunatic - another logical fallacy.

So as you don't have to ask - it is a logical fallacy because it excludes other possibilities.

Please share if there are other possibilities.

Why did you tell me...doesn't it work if you don't tell me?

To show that I care. From my point of view the nicest thing I can do for a person is pray for them.

But telling me has no effect on the outcome. You know that I'm an atheist, and I do not believe in your god and I do not believe in that your prayer is going to change me one iota.

Telling me might make you feel warm and fuzzy but does absolutely nothing for me.

I didn't mean it to offend you. If you offered what you felt was your greatest blessing to me I would be thankful. I thought you would be thankful if I offered my greatest to you.

To show you 'care', why pray? why not just say 'I care'? It is much more honest.

So you think I lied about it?

C.S Lewis was asked if he prayed for his wife when she was dying of cancer. He replied in the affirmative and was asked if he believed it helped her. He replied that it didn't, but that t certainly helped him.

I'm assuming that he prayed for her to not die?

Prayer, for the most part, is for the benefit of the pray-er - not the prayed for..

That depends if God is willing to meet the request or not. Sometimes a bad thing must happen in order for a greater good thing to occur. But I don't pretend to understand the complexities of God. I know that situations in my life have worked themself out seemingly for no reason at all and later I found that someone prayed for me.

[McCulloch]

If you're really seeking [the God of the Bible] he will not allow a false spirit to circumvent.

The logical conclusion is that if what you say is true, then everyone who has been deceived by a false spirit was not seeking the true God. Every religionist and every apparent seeker of truth, except for the ones who have found your particular God, could not have been looking honestly.

I didn't mean it to offend you. If you offered what you felt was your greatest blessing to me I would be thankful. I thought you would be thankful if I offered my greatest to you.

No offence, but from where I sit, prayer is nothing more than words spoken into the air and perhaps some internalized feeling of good-will towards the person that you are praying for. That is the greatest blessing you can convey on another?

[McCulloch]

The Christian New Testament seems to teach that unclean spirits cause every disease and every sickness, blindness and muteness; that a demon causes convulsions; that faith cures disease; that an angel of the Lord stirring up water can magically cures diseases. Would it not have been better if the Bible had taught that even if Jesus could magically cure diseases, the truth is that spirits and demons do not cause disease and faith and sinlessness do not cure them?

I'm sorry but that's incorrect to say that the Bible teaches that all sickness is caused by demons. In fact the scripture draws a distinction between healing the sick and casting out demons.
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. You have received freely, freely give.

Point taken

The Christian New Testament seems to teach that unclean spirits cause disease and sickness, blindness and muteness; that a demon can cause convulsions; that faith cures disease; that an angel of the Lord stirring up water can magically cures diseases. Would it not have been better if the Bible had taught that even if Jesus could magically cure diseases, the truth is that spirits and demons do not cause disease and faith and sinlessness do not cure them?

Do be careful. Quite often the Bible uses parallelisms where things are listed which are, in fact, the same things. Just because things are in a list does not necessarily mean that the writer is making a distinction.

[redstang281]

It has to do with whether or not their is a need for God. If life can happen without the supernatural then there's no necessity for the supernatural. As it stands now there's no alternative to a supernatural creation of life.

On this point, I thought I would ask you a question.

You state "As it stands now...".

I was trying to argue from a highest common denominator between your belief and mine. I obviously believe man is incapable of producing life from non living material while you on the other hand accept that they can't now but believe that one day they will. I didn't mean to imply necessity for a supernatural origin is on shaky ground.

What will happen to your god and your belief in it, if, sometime in the fiuture, a totally natural explanation is determined for the origins of the universe?

Personally I think even the idea of man making life is so irrational that I do not worry about it. Anyway my faith is not something that causes me to live in worry of someone disproving it as some may imagine it. My faith is determined by what the Lord has put in my heart not by arguments or evidence that happen to support it.

Would you still believe in god?

Myself, like other Christians, do not choose to believe in God in spite of the evidence. In other words I think you're asking this question because you think Christians deep down inside don't really believe in God.

If you would, why do you use the the above (fallacious) argument as proof of the existence of your god?

I'm not using this argument alone to prove the existence of the Biblical God just the existence of the super natural or at least an outer dimensional source.

[redstang281]

If you're really seeking [the God of the Bible] he will not allow a false spirit to circumvent.

The logical conclusion is that if what you say is true, then everyone who has been deceived by a false spirit was not seeking the true God. Every religionist and every apparent seeker of truth, except for the ones who have found your particular God, could not have been looking honestly.

Yes, that is my understanding. Man's desire is to seek what he wants to believe which isn't always what is true.

Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they who hunger and thirst after righteousness! For they shall be filled.

I didn't mean it to offend you. If you offered what you felt was your greatest blessing to me I would be thankful. I thought you would be thankful if I offered my greatest to you.

No offence, but from where I sit, prayer is nothing more than words spoken into the air and perhaps some internalized feeling of good-will towards the person that you are praying for. That is the greatest blessing you can convey on another?

It is the greatest blessing I can give someone because I believe the Lord hears my prayers and that they are not just empty words.