Proselytizing

[rreppy]

No Buddhist monk has ever come to my door on a Sunday morning and confronted me about whether or not I was "saved". I like that. I feel if you are confident that your religion is worthwhile, then you should have faith that people will find it and be convinced on its own merits, without the need of a bunch of pushy salespersons trying to "close a deal".
I admire the fact that the Dalai Lama, in almost every speech he makes to westerners, exhorts them to stay in the religion of their upbringing and merely explore whether Buddhism might have some tools and insights they may find useful. I could never imagine in a million years the Dalai Lama doing what Christian missionaries have done, going into foreign cultures and blasting their native religions as lies and blasphemies, destroying their works of art, burning their books, and telling them tales about how they will "burn in torment forever" if they don't convert.
Islam, of course, is even worse; the first 500 years of its history was "convert or die by my sword, infidel scum!".
I say, let a person find their own path and make up their own mind. Don't insult me by calling my beliefs inferior to your own and then shoving yours down my throat. A worthy religion shouldn't have to proselytize. Don't demean spirituality to the level of a popularity contest.

[1robin]

Just for the record, Judaism does not proselytize. Quite the contrary; when you go to a rabbi with a request to convert, he will typically turn you away three times before deigning to talk to you; when he does, he will begin by trying to discourage you from converting. When you finally DO convince him of your sincerity, the process takes years of study and private consultation, and many drop out of the process before conversion is final.

This is all Jewish tradition. In our religion, one does not have to be Jewish to be "saved" -- and indeed, being "saved" is not among our concerns.

So you won't see any Jews knocking on your door to hand you literature, either. Just wanted to make that clear.

I do not believe Judaism to be "the way". However if it was "the way" then to do anything which might hinder its transmission would seem immoral in my opinion.

Nobody ever said Judaism was "the way."

It's "A way." And for more than a thousand years, conversion to Judaism was punishable by death at the stake everywhere in Europe, and all Jews who assisted in such a conversion were punished in the same manner.

That wasn't only a medieval practice; one of our great martyrs, Count Valentine Potocki, a Polish nobleman who converted to Judaism, is called a "martyr" because he was burned at the stake for it -- in 1748.

Traditions are born of such things, and they don't change quickly or easily.

Perhaps, even if it is "A way," the crime of "hindering its transmission" ought not be laid at the feet of the Jews, but of those who burned both those who made it available and those who chose that "way" as well

I always thought Judaism claimed exclusivity. Are your views orthodox? Christians have been persecuted with death many times in history but we still evangelize. This is not an insult I am somewhat direct with my inquiries, so forgive me if I seem accusatory. Even if Judaism doesn't prostlitize do you suggest no one should? Are you from Israel? If you don't mind my asking. I sure did cram a lot of questions in a couple of lines.

Selah

[cnorman18]

I always thought Judaism claimed exclusivity.

No. We have always said that we know how God chose to speak to US; if He has chosen to speak to some other peoples in different ways, that is no business of ours. We have no warrant to say that He did not. Typically, only on the subject of literal idolatry have we ever presumed to call another religion "false".

It is also a formal teaching of Judaism that "the righteous of all nations (that is, of any belief or none) have a place in the Life to Come" -- if there is one, of course. And only God gets to decide who is "righteous."

Are your views orthodox?

No. Nor do I speak from or for the Orthodox viewpoint, though much that I say here would be acknowledged by the Orthodox as well.

Christians have been persecuted with death many times in history but we still evangelize.

We do not "evangelize," but we ARE open to converts. Always have been, from the time of Abraham onward. We do not seek them, since we do not regard non-Jews as "damned" or anything of that kind. We acknowledge that living as a Jew is hard, not for everyone, and has always involved certain risks, even in the present day. As I say, we are open to converts; but we do not press our beliefs on anyone. Even when I was a Christian, I thought that doing so was a bit rude, if nothing else. Who says your (anyone's) beliefs are better than mine?

This is not an insult I am somewhat direct with my inquiries, so forgive me if I seem accusatory.

You could be more diplomatic and courteous, but no offense taken. I can see that you have no intent to insult.

Even if Judaism doesn't prostlitize do you suggest no one should?

That's none of my business, either. If one is a Christian, that's part of the faith.

Are you from Israel?

No. Never been there.

If you don't mind my asking. I sure did cram a lot of questions in a couple of lines.
Selah

Why a choir direction in a debate thread?

[Burninglight]

Get used to it. That is not going to end until the end of the world. If you don't want JWs or Mormons coming to your house, put a sign on your door saying "Mormons not welcome" Wherever there is life, people will be knocking; they are going to be selling, buying, asking, seeking and don't let me forget proselytizing. It will also be done by force.

If we don't get involved, Islam will be knocking on our front doors handing us a ONE WAY ticket back to the 7th century. All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.

You don't like religion? Too bad, everyone has religion. Religion is what people do. Religion is what nailed Jesus to the cross. IMHO, the only one that can save us from religion is Jesus Christ. Everyone else are prisoners of religion especially atheists. We are all products of our past experiences, but we don't have to be prisoners of it. It is written: "Whom the son sets free is free indeed"

Between the 7th and 10th centuries, Islam was 10 times more enlightened that Christianity. It was the center of an intellectual golden age. It wasn't until the 1100, when a religious philosopher Iman Hamid Al-Ghazali brought the idea that mathematics is of the devil that intolerance and intellectualism came back into the religious culture, and it NEVER recovered. That's what the stylizing Christians are doing to us now.

During that time, both were barbaric, IMO. However, the Christians at least had more Scriptural truth, but they didn't apply the Scriptures to their lives, but Islam distorts totally the plan God has for mankind documented in the Bible the true word and not the Quran that never had a divine mandate that it should be written!

[Goat]

I always thought Judaism claimed exclusivity. Are your views orthodox? Christians have been persecuted with death many times in history but we still evangelize. This is not an insult I am somewhat direct with my inquiries, so forgive me if I seem accusatory. Even if Judaism doesn't prostlitize do you suggest no one should? Are you from Israel? If you don't mind my asking. I sure did cram a lot of questions in a couple of lines.

Selah

His viewpoint , while not universal, is very very prevalent. I would consider it the majority feeling in the U.S.. .. although you get some disagreement among the ultra orthodox.

What other religions do is their business.. I would just prefer if they didn't try to convert me.. and I really don't want a posthumous baptism by the Mormons.. mainly since I don't want to be dead.

[LaaIlahaIllAllah]

Islam, of course, is even worse; the first 500 years of its history was "convert or die by my sword, infidel scum!".

Do you enjoy lying or is it just an obsession?

If you knew even A LITTLE about Islam you would know that this is false. In Islam we believe that it is no good to convert someone "by the sword" because this is a forced conversion and not sincere out of the heart - which is what matters. Such a thing is forbidden.

Why would they want a bunch of fake Muslims living amongst them who will most likely lead the way to confusion and complications? This is how the Jews of Medina tried to destroy Islam by pretending to become Muslim and then causing trouble.

If the people that the Muslims were at war with stopped fighting and wanted to make peace and get protection with them, they would be allowed as God commanded the Muslims to do in the Quran.
The only thing that is forced upon people by Muslims would be a tax they have to pay if they are being ruled over by Muslims.
Jews and Christians lived at peace under Muslims for hundreds of years.

But you are correct about one part, I do see you as lying, infidel scum.

[ThatGirlAgain]

Islam, of course, is even worse; the first 500 years of its history was "convert or die by my sword, infidel scum!".

Do you enjoy lying or is it just an obsession?

If you knew even A LITTLE about Islam you would know that this is false. In Islam we believe that it is no good to convert someone "by the sword" because this is a forced conversion and not sincere out of the heart - which is what matters. Such a thing is forbidden.

Why would they want a bunch of fake Muslims living amongst them who will most likely lead the way to confusion and complications? This is how the Jews of Medina tried to destroy Islam by pretending to become Muslim and then causing trouble.

If the people that the Muslims were at war with stopped fighting and wanted to make peace and get protection with them, they would be allowed as God commanded the Muslims to do in the Quran.
The only thing that is forced upon people by Muslims would be a tax they have to pay if they are being ruled over by Muslims.
Jews and Christians lived at peace under Muslims for hundreds of years.

But you are correct about one part, I do see you as lying, infidel scum.

Moderator Comment

Calling someone a "lying infidel scum" is decidedly uncivil. I realize that you are repeating words used by someone else. For that reason and because you are new here, this is only a comment and does not really count for anything. But in general, seriously uncivil language would likely result in a warning and that does count.


Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster.

[1robin]

I always thought Judaism claimed exclusivity.

No. We have always said that we know how God chose to speak to US; if He has chosen to speak to some other peoples in different ways, that is no business of ours. We have no warrant to say that He did not. Typically, only on the subject of literal idolatry have we ever presumed to call another religion "false".

It is also a formal teaching of Judaism that "the righteous of all nations (that is, of any belief or none) have a place in the Life to Come" -- if there is one, of course. And only God gets to decide who is "righteous."

Are your views orthodox?

No. Nor do I speak from or for the Orthodox viewpoint, though much that I say here would be acknowledged by the Orthodox as well.

Christians have been persecuted with death many times in history but we still evangelize.

We do not "evangelize," but we ARE open to converts. Always have been, from the time of Abraham onward. We do not seek them, since we do not regard non-Jews as "damned" or anything of that kind. We acknowledge that living as a Jew is hard, not for everyone, and has always involved certain risks, even in the present day. As I say, we are open to converts; but we do not press our beliefs on anyone. Even when I was a Christian, I thought that doing so was a bit rude, if nothing else. Who says your (anyone's) beliefs are better than mine?

This is not an insult I am somewhat direct with my inquiries, so forgive me if I seem accusatory.

You could be more diplomatic and courteous, but no offense taken. I can see that you have no intent to insult.

Even if Judaism doesn't prostlitize do you suggest no one should?

That's none of my business, either. If one is a Christian, that's part of the faith.

Are you from Israel?

No. Never been there.

If you don't mind my asking. I sure did cram a lot of questions in a couple of lines.
Selah

Why a choir direction in a debate thread?

Thanks for the info I find it a bit contradictory with my take on the old testament, but that may say more about my take on the old testament than your theology. I do not know why I adopted that word. It is kind of applicable as it means a pause or break, I will see if I can find a different word to use incorrectly.

[1robin]

Islam, of course, is even worse; the first 500 years of its history was "convert or die by my sword, infidel scum!".

Do you enjoy lying or is it just an obsession?

If you knew even A LITTLE about Islam you would know that this is false. In Islam we believe that it is no good to convert someone "by the sword" because this is a forced conversion and not sincere out of the heart - which is what matters. Such a thing is forbidden.

Why would they want a bunch of fake Muslims living amongst them who will most likely lead the way to confusion and complications? This is how the Jews of Medina tried to destroy Islam by pretending to become Muslim and then causing trouble.

If the people that the Muslims were at war with stopped fighting and wanted to make peace and get protection with them, they would be allowed as God commanded the Muslims to do in the Quran.
The only thing that is forced upon people by Muslims would be a tax they have to pay if they are being ruled over by Muslims.
Jews and Christians lived at peace under Muslims for hundreds of years.

But you are correct about one part, I do see you as lying, infidel scum.

Moderator Comment

Calling someone a "lying infidel scum" is decidedly uncivil. I realize that you are repeating words used by someone else. For that reason and because you are new here, this is only a comment and does not really count for anything. But in general, seriously uncivil language would likely result in a warning and that does count.


Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster.

Is insulting someone a good way to convince them your religion is peacful. That is the opposite of what Christ did!!!

[cnorman18]

Thanks for the info I find it a bit contradictory with my take on the old testament, but that may say more about my take on the old testament than your theology.

Many people assume that there is are other ways to read and understand the Hebrew Bible than the various Christian approaches. The spectrum of Jewish approaches to it is not well known.

I do not know why I adopted that word. It is kind of applicable as it means a pause or break, I will see if I can find a different word to use incorrectly.

It's my understanding that the meaning of the term is not truly known, but it is often assumed that it was a liturgical term used in the Temple, where the book of Psalms was analogous to a hymnbook. My remark was a lame joke, no more.

[1robin]

Thanks for the info I find it a bit contradictory with my take on the old testament, but that may say more about my take on the old testament than your theology.

Many people assume that there is are other ways to read and understand the Hebrew Bible than the various Christian approaches. The spectrum of Jewish approaches to it is not well known.

I do not know why I adopted that word. It is kind of applicable as it means a pause or break, I will see if I can find a different word to use incorrectly.

It's my understanding that the meaning of the term is not truly known, but it is often assumed that it was a liturgical term used in the Temple, where the book of Psalms was analogous to a hymnbook. My remark was a lame joke, no more.

No offense taken. Thanks for the info.