Should homosexuality become a religion?

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AlAyeti
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Should homosexuality become a religion?

Post #1

Post by AlAyeti »

Christianity is incompatible with those that are involved in lifestyle contrary to the Biblical views on marriage, family and sexual morality, and/or that will not repent of their "sins."

The homosexual ideological stance refuses to believe that they are doing anything wrong, claiming that homosexuality is a set pre-birth condition. This sets the Christian ideological and Theological beliefs against those that want to live a homosexual lifestyle.

Maniline protestant Christianity is clear in its teachings about the incompatibilty of homosexuals in the Clergy and Pope Benedict and the Catholic church (after being palgued by homosexual pedophila scandals) has issued guideleines for homosexual behavior and being a Catholic Priest.

If homosexuals claim that they are born to "be" homosexuals and deny that they are behaving contrary to the Bible, which puts their position in diametric opposition of established Biblical truths, shouldn't "they just start their own religion?
From the Associated Press:

Vatican Closes Door on Gay Seminarians

By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer

The Vatican is toughening its stand against gay candidates for the priesthood, specifying in a new document that even men with "transitory" homosexual tendencies must overcome their urges for at least three years before entering the clergy.

A long-awaited "Instruction," due to be released next week, was posted Tuesday on the Internet by the Italian Catholic news agency Adista. A church official who has read the document confirmed its authenticity; he asked that his name not be used because the piece has not been published by the Vatican.

Conservative Roman Catholics who have decried the "gay subculture" in seminaries will likely applaud the policy because it clarifies what the Vatican expects of seminarians and their administrators.

Critics of the policy warned that, if enforced, it will likely result in seminarians lying about their orientation and will decrease the already dwindling number of priests in the United States. Estimates of the percentage of gays in U.S. seminaries and the priesthood range from 25 percent to 50 percent, according to a research review by the Rev. Donald Cozzens, an author of "The Changing Face of the Priesthood."

The document from the Vatican's Congregation for Catholic Education says the church deeply respects homosexuals. But it also says it "cannot admit to the seminary and the sacred orders those who practice homosexuality, present deeply rooted homosexual tendencies or support so-called gay culture."

"Those people find themselves, in fact, in a situation that presents a grave obstacle to a correct relationship with men and women. One cannot ignore the negative consequences that can stem from the ordination of people with deeply rooted homosexual tendencies," it said.

"If instead it is a case of homosexual tendencies that are merely the expression of a transitory problem, for example as in the case of an unfinished adolescence, they must however have been clearly overcome for at least three years before ordination as a deacon."

For many gay-rights activists, the Vatican's distinction between deep-rooted and "transitory" homosexuality is without basis.

"For decades now, the scientific and medical community have said that sexual orientation is an immutable trait, what some of us might call a gift from God," said Harry Knox, director of the religion and faith program at the Washington-based Human Rights Campaign Foundation.

"This new policy causes candidates for the priesthood to be deceptive, and that should not be what the church should be about," he said.

Vatican prohibitions on sexually active gays becoming priests are not new, and a 1961 document says homosexuals should be barred from the priesthood. But the issue came to the fore in 2002, at the height of the clergy sex abuse scandal in the United States.

A study by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice found most abuse victims since 1950 were adolescent boys. Experts on sex offenders said homosexuals are no more likely than heterosexuals to molest young people, but that did not stifle questions about gay seminarians. In addition, some Catholic researchers said "gay subcultures" in seminaries were alienating heterosexuals, prompting them to drop out.

The new document underlines that long-standing traditions and church teaching consider homosexual acts "grave sins" and also intrinsically immoral and contrary to natural law.

Thomas Plante, a psychologist who for more than 15 years has conducted evaluations of prospective seminarians for U.S. dioceses and religious orders, said the document would have an "enormous" ripple effect on the future U.S. priesthood if it is followed.

"Sexual orientation in almost all the evaluations I've done over 15 years hasn't really mattered," he said. "Now what's coming out of the Vatican is that it matters in a big way. That's a real challenge because we think that there are many, many, many gay men who are fabulous priests."

He questioned how seminary directors would apply the new regulations, and suggested that many may resort to a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. The candidates too, may try to hide their sexual orientation because homosexuality is now a deal-breaker, said Plante, who is chairman of the psychology department at Santa Clara University in California.

The document, called an "Instruction," is only five pages long, including footnotes. It was signed by the prefect and secretary of the congregation on Nov. 4, and says it was approved by Pope Benedict XVI on Aug. 31.

The text makes no reference to current priests, directed instead to people entering seminaries and preparing for ordination. Its title reads: "Regarding the criteria of vocational discernment regarding people with homosexual tendencies in view of their admission to the seminary and to sacred orders."

The sex abuse scandals have forced an unprecedented introspection into the clergy and how to train future priests. In September, Vatican-directed inspectors started visiting all 229 American seminaries. Part of their mission has been to seek any "evidence of homosexuality."

The Vatican has often visited the issue of homosexuality, reflecting an unbending theological opposition but also an acknowledgment that discrimination based on sexual preference is not justified.

In 2003, homosexuality was described as a "troubling moral and social phenomenon" in a document by the powerful Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, then headed by German Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who became Pope Benedict this year.

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juliod
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Post #2

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Christianity is incompatible with those that are involved in lifestyle contrary to the Biblical views on marriage, family and sexual morality, and/or that will not repent of their "sins."
Christianity is also therefore incompatible with wearing cloth made of mixed fibers, eating pork and related products, having church on Sunday, and all the other OT laws.

Until there is widespread adherence to these other things, it will be perfectly acceptable for homosexuals to remain in the churches.

OTOH, I can't imagine why a homosexual, or anyone else, would want to be part of the catholic or other christian church.

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ST88
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Re: Should homosexuality become a religion?

Post #3

Post by ST88 »

AlAyeti wrote:Maniline protestant Christianity is clear in its teachings about the incompatibilty of homosexuals in the Clergy and Pope Benedict and the Catholic church (after being palgued by homosexual pedophila scandals) has issued guideleines for homosexual behavior and being a Catholic Priest.
Just to get this out of the way, there is no evidence that homosexuality and pedophilia are correlative behaviors, and considerable evidence against this view. I do not wish to debate this fact in this thread, I just wanted to provide an alternate view.
AlAyeti wrote:If homosexuals claim that they are born to "be" homosexuals and deny that they are behaving contrary to the Bible, which puts their position in diametric opposition of established Biblical truths, shouldn't "they just start their own religion?
I am all for any group of people who share similar characteristics to identify themselves as having a separate "religion". If they wish to follow all the teachings that are in the Bible -- except one -- then more power to them. They would also be in good company. There are plenty of Christian denominations that do not follow all of the teachings in the Bible, or that have misinterpreted key passages. Just ask other denominations.

As these distinctions between denominations get smaller and smaller, hopefully they will be sufficiently angry with one another that they will be unwilling/unable to pool their resources to affect the larger culture as a whole.
From the Associated Press:
Vatican Closes Door on Gay Seminarians
...
The document from the Vatican's Congregation for Catholic Education says the church deeply respects homosexuals. But it also says it "cannot admit to the seminary and the sacred orders those who practice homosexuality, present deeply rooted homosexual tendencies or support so-called gay culture."

"Those people find themselves, in fact, in a situation that presents a grave obstacle to a correct relationship with men and women. One cannot ignore the negative consequences that can stem from the ordination of people with deeply rooted homosexual tendencies," it said.

"If instead it is a case of homosexual tendencies that are merely the expression of a transitory problem, for example as in the case of an unfinished adolescence, they must however have been clearly overcome for at least three years before ordination as a deacon."

For many gay-rights activists, the Vatican's distinction between deep-rooted and "transitory" homosexuality is without basis.
The most interesting thing about the latest Catholic view on this subject is that it makes a distinction between homosexual actions and being gay. This is a tremendous admission on the part of the Catholic Church, that there is such a thing as being gay. It implies that it is an inherent characteristic and not just a set of actions. If true, it would mean that the "violation of natural law" view is entirely without basis.
Every concept that can ever be needed will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings forgotten. -- George Orwell, 1984

melikio
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Incompatible.

Post #4

Post by melikio »

Christianity is incompatible with those that are involved in lifestyle contrary to the Biblical views on marriage, family and sexual morality, and/or that will not repent of their "sins."
Remember Al, that includes YOU as well (most likely).

Firstly, you show your ignorance in calling a sexual orientation a "lifestyle". That's a mostly BOGUS idea.

Secondly, the Catholic Church really needs to consider that their views about priests being "married", needs to change period. Overall, they have overlooked the need for human beings to be able to seek that kind of relationship as an option.

I don't have a simple solution (there are likely none), but I can't see how success will be had, as long as they DO NOT allow their ministers to have marital relations.

-Mel-
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-

AlAyeti
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Post #5

Post by AlAyeti »

Quote:
Christianity is incompatible with those that are involved in lifestyle contrary to the Biblical views on marriage, family and sexual morality, and/or that will not repent of their "sins."


Christianity is also therefore incompatible with wearing cloth made of mixed fibers, eating pork and related products, having church on Sunday, and all the other OT laws.

Until there is widespread adherence to these other things, it will be perfectly acceptable for homosexuals to remain in the churches.

OTOH, I can't imagine why a homosexual, or anyone else, would want to be part of the catholic or other christian church.
You will not see me disagree with facts.

When God in Christ Jesus talked in parables as an insulting, smug and "condescending" (huh-ha, literally huh?) way to deal with those that can embrace abomination like the morning newspaper, His "wheat and tares," comparison finds its source of pure logic in fact and in places like your post.

Notice that violence towards anyone even Sodomites and Gommorahians, finds no place in the Gospels.

Neither does being quiet about Sodomites and Gomorrahians.

Thus the "debate" about homosexuality "in the church" is well-argued.

I believe that denominations and other faiths, are a good place to point homosexuality. Since it is a belief system that relies on faith over facts, it should become its own religion. Not unlike Mormons, Muslims, Heavens Gate Urantia and others.

Civilized, decent and "peaceful" no?

melikio
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What?

Post #6

Post by melikio »

You will not see me disagree with facts.
Al, it seems that you often agree with what is unproven or outright falsehood. You may be right about a few things, but the other stuff you mix in, far outweighs the useful truth you heave into "reality". (You equate "homosexuals" with sexual "criminals".)

Why should anyone take you seriously? (More than anyone or anything else.) Get a grip, YOU aren't broadcasting the ONLY truths to be known. And as a moderate to conservative person, I admit I'm repulsed by your "truths"; I personally DO NOT see God (of the Bible) in the overall message you are relating.

It's easy to state "facts" as if they are something meaningful, but if you do not communicate that meaning to human beings your effort is useless.

Put some REAL love into your message; maybe then the people who need to hear it will listen.

-Mel-
Last edited by melikio on Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-

AlAyeti
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Post #7

Post by AlAyeti »

AlAyeti wrote:
Maniline protestant Christianity is clear in its teachings about the incompatibilty of homosexuals in the Clergy and Pope Benedict and the Catholic church (after being palgued by homosexual pedophila scandals) has issued guideleines for homosexual behavior and being a Catholic Priest.
Just to get this out of the way, there is no evidence that homosexuality and pedophilia are correlative behaviors, and considerable evidence against this view.


There is absolute proof that homosexual priest and the main-stay of the molestation of boys in the Catholic church. I'm thinking the have some undeniable evidence.
I do not wish to debate this fact in this thread, I just wanted to provide an alternate view.
Popr Benedict and his truth in facts is doing the same.
AlAyeti wrote:
If homosexuals claim that they are born to "be" homosexuals and deny that they are behaving contrary to the Bible, which puts their position in diametric opposition of established Biblical truths, shouldn't "they just start their own religion?

I am all for any group of people who share similar characteristics to identify themselves as having a separate "religion". If they wish to follow all the teachings that are in the Bible -- except one -- then more power to them. They would also be in good company. There are plenty of Christian denominations that do not follow all of the teachings in the Bible, or that have misinterpreted key passages. Just ask other denominations.
Thank you for validating my post.
As these distinctions between denominations get smaller and smaller, hopefully they will be sufficiently angry with one another that they will be unwilling/unable to pool their resources to affect the larger culture as a whole.


The intolerance of homosexuality and its totalitarian agenda will bring Christians togather but as is good Biblical advice it is better to be scattered then to have your enemy encircle you. I hope those that trust God will keep to the example of health given in the Bible.
Quote:
From the Associated Press:
Vatican Closes Door on Gay Seminarians
...
The document from the Vatican's Congregation for Catholic Education says the church deeply respects homosexuals. But it also says it "cannot admit to the seminary and the sacred orders those who practice homosexuality, present deeply rooted homosexual tendencies or support so-called gay culture."

"Those people find themselves, in fact, in a situation that presents a grave obstacle to a correct relationship with men and women. One cannot ignore the negative consequences that can stem from the ordination of people with deeply rooted homosexual tendencies," it said.

"If instead it is a case of homosexual tendencies that are merely the expression of a transitory problem, for example as in the case of an unfinished adolescence, they must however have been clearly overcome for at least three years before ordination as a deacon."
For many gay-rights activists, the Vatican's distinction between deep-rooted and "transitory" homosexuality is without basis.
Yes "this would be" the position of "gay-rights activists." Their intolerance of any dissent is well documanted. Ask the APA and the victims of homosexual-pedophile Priests.
The most interesting thing about the latest Catholic view on this subject is that it makes a distinction between homosexual actions and being gay.
The same as wanting to kill someone and blowing their brains out. Yes, actions define sin, abut. . . according to Christ Jesus . . . so do thoughts.
This is a tremendous admission on the part of the Catholic Church, that there is such a thing as being gay.


Sodom and Gomorrah is not a myth. Did you somehow think Bible-believers thought they were not factual? You even mention "gay-rights actvists." So does Genesis.
It implies that it is an inherent characteristic and not just a set of actions.


That once acted on makes one ineligible for leadership over a congragation of people that worship God.
If true, it would mean that the "violation of natural law" view is entirely without basis.
What Christian does not hold to "Original Sin?"

But . . . the again . . . nature disproves the mental health of homosexuality and clearly puts it into the aberration category and the "gay-rights activists" have already stampeded that out of Psychiatry and look to be doing this soon to Christianty. Do you want "Bonobo behavior" during a Mass? Please answer that?

Why not just develope their own religion based on their own "interpretations" of truth?

melikio
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You DO it.

Post #8

Post by melikio »

Why not just develope their own religion based on their own "interpretations" of truth?
Al, you are doing that, if subtly.

YOUR INTERPRETATIONS aren't the ONLY ones. And thousands of other denominations prove empirically what I'm saying.

Still, I get the sense that you would not be satisfied, until others were FORCED to follow what YOU think is "Christian". That won't ever happen.

Please learn to love others directly, before you waste your life making more trouble than this world already has in it.

-Mel-

AlAyeti
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Post #9

Post by AlAyeti »

Quote:
You will not see me disagree with facts.

Al, it seems that you often agree with what is unproven or outright falsehood. You may be right about a few things, but the other stuff you mix in, far outweighs the useful truth you heave into "reality". (You equate "homosexuals" with sexual "criminals".)

Why should anyone take you seriously? (More than anyone or anything else.) Get a grip, YOU aren't broadcasting the ONLY truths to be known. And as a moderate to conservative person, I admit I'm repulsed by your "truths"; I personally DO NOT see God (of the Bible) in the overall message you are relating.

It's seay to state opinions as something meaningful, but if you do not communicate that meaning, your effort is useless.
Odd, don't you think, that Pope Benedict is asking a few hundred-million Catholics to see things strikingly similar to my presentaion of the issue of homosexuality and its pervasive aganda of totalitarianism, versus Christianty?

"I," a sinner, have never wished a political and social agenda to demand that Christianty submit to my actions and activities be accepted and celebrated, or else be seen as intoerance or bigotry. It is clear that the homosexual agenda does just that and that the Catholic Church has had enough of this infiltration and its resulting negativity.

Many clear fluids look exactly like the beneficial and indeed necessary nutrient of water for life. Though, it may or not be good water until you either taste it ot drink it.

In the case of poisons, you either spit it out of your mouth; identify it as poison and isolate it; or die. But many posions exist quite safely around the house now don't they? But they have to be identified and put where they can do no harm. Now actually harm comes only two ways: by ignorance or malice.

Like I write, facts and truth against "political correctness" and redefining and reclassifying the meanings of words to allow the poison of abomination equal staus with Biblical truth.

Jesus was executed for being against politics of his day both religious and secular. Inn fact He literally said this would happen. And hoistory in and out of the church have proven this fact. Why should His followers expect any difference from the "politics of today. Notice that Jesus did not change marriage either.

melikio
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Ok Al.

Post #10

Post by melikio »

Ok.

May God's WILL, be done.

(And I leave YOUR "Christianity" to you, and others who happen to accept it.)

Regards,

-Mel-
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-

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