Book of Acts: When did the Christian miracles cease?

[Shermana]

According to the book of Acts, the very reason why the Church spread so fast...was because of straight up miracles.

Modern "Liberal Christianity" may try to assert that they never happened in the first place....but then how do they explain the drastic expansion of the Christian religion? And if such writing is mere "poetry" and didn't happen, what was the "poetry" supposed to mean? Does the very basis of what happens in Acts refute the positions of "Liberal Christianity?"

And "Conservative Christians" who maintain that they did happen....don't exactly have miracles happen in public like in Acts or as Paul supposedly described in Corinthians (another difficult issue for Liberal Christians to explain why Paul was talking about miracles and prophecying).

Some "Charismatic" movements may have "gift of tongues" events, but they go completely against what the "gift of tongues" is supposed to be, it was meant to be a miraculous showing that enabled believers to actually communicate with others of a foreign tongue, not just babbling away. Paul even forbade using the gift of tongues if there was no interpreter.

Paul was even apparently to raise people from the dead and heal the sick just like Jesus. In fact, according to the Gospels, Jesus said that the disciples would be able to do works greater than him. What happened since?

According to Acts, there is indeed supposed to be an actual showing of who is a "True Christian", in the form of miraculous happenings. What happened? When did they cease?

Did the early church spread so fast because of the word of these miracles? If not, what caused the Christian religion to spread so quickly?

Were the NT scriptures indeed saying that true believers would be able to perform miracles on a scale like Jesus did? Does it not say that all church members will receive some kind of gift, including prophecy? If believers don't have these gifts, are they, in scriptural terms, lying when they say they have the Spirit then? Is Christianity supposed to be a miracle-based religion in its original form? Are those who claim to believe in Christ but don't perform such miracles therefore not filled with the Spirit and thus not true members of the church? Or is there an explanation why there are no raisings of the dead and healings of the sick like in the days of Paul and the disciples (faith healing shows don't count).

Is it fair to conclude that the original point of the scriptural "Church" was to be a part of an organization that actually performed amazing miracles? When did the healing of the lame and raising of the dead cease and for what reason?

(Note: This thread is in discussion of the scriptural definition, there is no need to establish that said miracles are possible or that the events actually happened, it is a discussion of the relevance of such to modern and historical "Christians".)

[Shermana]

"2) you would believe you are going to heaven for being a good person."

Why would that be a danger and how does that in any way contradict what Jesus said about "Striving" or "working hard" to enter the kingdom?

[ThatGirlAgain]

So what caused people to convert by the thousands in Acts? I have never been at an assembly where thousands turned from unbelief to belief. It seems to me it would be an amazing experience. Maybe by the time Acts was written there were large numbers of Christians, 75,000 or whatever, but at the time of these stories where thousands were converted you are saying there were only about 5000 Christians, so the numbers in one day would have increased by a very large percentage.

Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 5:14
And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)

If we take the Gospels at (roughly) face value there would have been thousands of people who gathered to hear Jesus speak on at least several occasions. Presumably some proportion of them would have been favorable to what Jesus said. Peter and company are baptizing people and accepting them into a specific community. They are not necessarily converting them from scratch. It is not unreasonable that they might have picked up thousands of new members who were already on board mentally, especially with that resurrection story going around.

So the numbers being given in Acts should not be ruled out on grounds of likelihood, even if they do come to us via Luke the Storyteller.

If you read Galatians one might assume Paul and the Apostles were preaching salvation by grace through Faith in Christ. I am reading a book now called "The Gospel According to Jesus" by John MacArthur which is going to explain a lot of things to me, but salvation through faith is not something that can exactly be gleaned by Jesus' teachings. Maybe by His private conversation with Nicodemus, but that was not widely known until later.

Perhaps it is the combination of the two messages that became a kind of epiphany to people who believed.

Having read the Gospels (I mean really read for content without preconceptions) before reading Paul, it never seemed to me that Paul ever meant that salvation came through some mysterious state of mind called faith or belief as these words are meant today. In The Case for God Karen Armstrong makes the point that these words really meant commitment to practicing the precepts of a belief system and were not ends in themselves. Here is a review that explains that point at length. Viewed in this light, to have faith or to believe was to do what Jesus said to do: avoid sin, follow the commandments, love your neighbor and so forth. To Paul what was being believed was that the end of the world was imminent and that Christ would shortly return to render judgment on the good and the evil. So hang on and keep faith in the teachings of Jesus so you will end up on the good side. This message also lies at the heart of the Gospels.

Despite what I may say about Paul, I have wondered if the "faith" he refers is the faith in the teachings and obedience to the commandments as Yashua stated, but I'm still undecided on what exactly he meant about the Law itself. But I agree that Paul was saying that the "End of the age" was imminent, and it sort of was, with the impending destruction of the Kingdom of Israel and the Temple, and that faith in Jesus would get one through the tribulations to come. And I believe that it's possible that in Acts, even Paul at his trial says that he wasn't teaching Lawlessness, and that Acts 15 (and the subsequent reference to it later) may have been interpolations, since James's reaction to Paul's return doesn't fit what the council allegedly said, and it sort of contradicts with Galatians 2. But the antinomians are more concerned about reading it with their "preconceived" notions than to read it in such a way that actually takes into account what Jesus taught, let alone what it even says Paul said in the end of Acts. Do they assume Paul was lying when he denied teaching against the Law?

It seems to me that Paul was not denying that Jews needed to follow the Law but rather saying that to follow Jesus one did not need to first become a Jew. The Jewish Law it all its complexity was never intended to be followed by gentiles. They were only obligated to follow the Noahide Law to be righteous. The Jewish Law was the exclusive obligation and priviliege of the Jewish people.

Concerning Acts - we already know from his Gospel that Luke was on the side of a universal Christianity. And they do not call him The Storyteller for nothing.

[Moses Yoder]

"2) you would believe you are going to heaven for being a good person."

Why would that be a danger and how does that in any way contradict what Jesus said about "Striving" or "working hard" to enter the kingdom?

I believe Paul was taught the Gospel by Jesus, and his writing is inspired by God. Read his thoughts on the nature of people below;

All Have Sinned
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.�
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit�; [c]
“The poison of asps is under their lips�; [d]
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.�[e]
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.�[f]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.�[g]

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Nobody is good enough that they deserve to go to heaven. I believe those people who think they are, are the ones who will cry "Lord,Lord" and Jesus will say "Depart from me, I never knew you." This is the danger of thinking you will go to heaven because you are a good person.

[Moses Yoder]

So what caused people to convert by the thousands in Acts? I have never been at an assembly where thousands turned from unbelief to belief. It seems to me it would be an amazing experience. Maybe by the time Acts was written there were large numbers of Christians, 75,000 or whatever, but at the time of these stories where thousands were converted you are saying there were only about 5000 Christians, so the numbers in one day would have increased by a very large percentage.

Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 5:14
And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)

If we take the Gospels at (roughly) face value there would have been thousands of people who gathered to hear Jesus speak on at least several occasions. Presumably some proportion of them would have been favorable to what Jesus said. Peter and company are baptizing people and accepting them into a specific community. They are not necessarily converting them from scratch. It is not unreasonable that they might have picked up thousands of new members who were already on board mentally, especially with that resurrection story going around.

So the numbers being given in Acts should not be ruled out on grounds of likelihood, even if they do come to us via Luke the Storyteller.

If you read Galatians one might assume Paul and the Apostles were preaching salvation by grace through Faith in Christ. I am reading a book now called "The Gospel According to Jesus" by John MacArthur which is going to explain a lot of things to me, but salvation through faith is not something that can exactly be gleaned by Jesus' teachings. Maybe by His private conversation with Nicodemus, but that was not widely known until later.

Perhaps it is the combination of the two messages that became a kind of epiphany to people who believed.

Having read the Gospels (I mean really read for content without preconceptions) before reading Paul, it never seemed to me that Paul ever meant that salvation came through some mysterious state of mind called faith or belief as these words are meant today. In The Case for God Karen Armstrong makes the point that these words really meant commitment to practicing the precepts of a belief system and were not ends in themselves. Here is a review that explains that point at length. Viewed in this light, to have faith or to believe was to do what Jesus said to do: avoid sin, follow the commandments, love your neighbor and so forth. To Paul what was being believed was that the end of the world was imminent and that Christ would shortly return to render judgment on the good and the evil. So hang on and keep faith in the teachings of Jesus so you will end up on the good side. This message also lies at the heart of the Gospels.

One of the things Jesus stressed constantly was that the Jews had failed to keep the law by not keeping it in their heart while pretending to practice it outwardly. He referred to them as hypocrites for this practice, much like He would the male who raised me. I have read enough of your responses to know you believe Jesus' "commands" are different from the Mosaic law, but if we aren't able to keep the Mosaic law aren't we just trading up for a different law by saying we must follow Jesus' commands in order to be saved?

The Amish in our area have set up a whole new law that they must follow in order to be saved. Where would it end?

I believe if a person is saved their life will slowly become sanctified, and in some cases suddenly, but I don't think sanctification is a necessity for salvation, rather it is an indication of it. The lack of sanctification, a life of blatant sin, is an indication of the lack of salvation.

P.S. After reading you link, it seems to me the danger of following the law (or Jesus' law) to be saved would be two fold. 1) Your only motivation for doing good would be for reward, and 2) you would believe you are going to heaven for being a good person.

Amos, the first prophet, stressed the need for social justice to receive reward and avoid punishment when the Lord comes to judge all men. In the time of Amos “the people of Israel have reached a low point in their devotion to YHVH (the God of Israel) - the people have become greedy and have stopped following and adhering to their values. The wealthy elite are becoming rich at the expense of others. Peasant farmers who once practiced subsistence farming are being forced to farm what is best for foreign trade, mostly wine and oil." (See Amos link above) Sounds rather like the time that Jesus lived in. And the message of Jesus sounds a lot like that of Amos: return to righteousness to justify salvation. And as in Amos, righteousness had to do with good action. Whether Jesus meant only the commandments he cited or was just stressing the need for action is a subject for debate (not here please). The point was that righteousness of action was the key to salvation.

Even in Matthew, the most Jewish and Law adhering of the Gospel writers, it is action is that is stressed. Remember Matthew 25? And do not forget that the sheep, those who receive eternal reward, were doing charitable works without awareness of any religious motivation. “When did we…etc?� And for that they were rewarded. It is the action that counts. And Luke makes it plain that being in "the in crowd" does not matter. Remember the Good Samaritan?

Jesus was really down on hypocrisy, adherence to the letter of the law and ignoring the spirit. It is NOT adherence to any law that does the trick. It is righteousness in the form of moral living and charitable giving that justifies.

Can you find anything that Jesus said that indicates that sanctification is the real key and that moral living results from that?

Well, you have challenged me. Your thoughts have made me talk to my pastor and he gave me the book I am reading "The Gospel According to Jesus" by John MacArthur. I think I will take notes as I read it and when I am done I will start a new topic and hope you participate.

[McCulloch]

Nobody is good enough that they deserve to go to heaven. I believe those people who think they are, are the ones who will cry "Lord,Lord" and Jesus will say "Depart from me, I never knew you." This is the danger of thinking you will go to heaven because you are a good person.

I believe that Moses Yoder has taken Jesus' words out of context and has given them a meaning diametrically opposite of what he had intended.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.�

“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.�

Jesus speaks of a heavenly reward for those who do the will of the Father specifically, feeding the hungry, visiting the imprisoned, welcoming the stranger, clothing the naked. The ones he says "Depart from me" are the ones who merely preach, prophesy, perform miracles and cast out demons.

[pax]

Nobody is good enough that they deserve to go to heaven. I believe those people who think they are, are the ones who will cry "Lord,Lord" and Jesus will say "Depart from me, I never knew you." This is the danger of thinking you will go to heaven because you are a good person.

I believe that Moses Yoder has taken Jesus' words out of context and has given them a meaning diametrically opposite of what he had intended.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.�

“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.�

Jesus speaks of a heavenly reward for those who do the will of the Father specifically, feeding the hungry, visiting the imprisoned, welcoming the stranger, clothing the naked. The ones he says "Depart from me" are the ones who merely preach, prophesy, perform miracles and cast out demons.

But, there is a condition. The good works must be done to one of Jesus' brothers in order to merit the kingdom of heaven, and to ignore Jesus' brothers in their need merits the kingdom of hell.

So, who are Jesus' brothers?

[Goat]

"2) you would believe you are going to heaven for being a good person."

Why would that be a danger and how does that in any way contradict what Jesus said about "Striving" or "working hard" to enter the kingdom?

I believe Paul was taught the Gospel by Jesus, and his writing is inspired by God. Read his thoughts on the nature of people below;

All Have Sinned
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.�
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit�; [c]
“The poison of asps is under their lips�; [d]
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.�[e]
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.�[f]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.�[g]

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Nobody is good enough that they deserve to go to heaven. I believe those people who think they are, are the ones who will cry "Lord,Lord" and Jesus will say "Depart from me, I never knew you." This is the danger of thinking you will go to heaven because you are a good person.

Or, if you look at that passage in context.. Jesus is separating the sheep from the goats, on the basis of their WORKS. The writer of the Gospel of Matthew is saying 'If you don't treat your fellow man well, you aren't deserving of heaven'. It says nothing of faith.

These folks were out prophesying, casting out demons, but failed to do anything good to the most needy of people. We see that a lot in people's actions today.. the more things change, the more things stay the same.

[ThatGirlAgain]

"2) you would believe you are going to heaven for being a good person."

Why would that be a danger and how does that in any way contradict what Jesus said about "Striving" or "working hard" to enter the kingdom?

I believe Paul was taught the Gospel by Jesus, and his writing is inspired by God. Read his thoughts on the nature of people below;

All Have Sinned
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.�
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit�; [c]
“The poison of asps is under their lips�; [d]
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.�[e]
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.�[f]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.�[g]

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Nobody is good enough that they deserve to go to heaven. I believe those people who think they are, are the ones who will cry "Lord,Lord" and Jesus will say "Depart from me, I never knew you." This is the danger of thinking you will go to heaven because you are a good person.

In Romans and elsewhere, Paul is trying to make a case for treating gentiles at the same level as Jews in order to allow gentiles to be Christians without first becoming Jews. His approach is to demean everyone to the same level. But in this effort Paul plays fast and loose with his scriptural justification.

Romans 3
10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.�[ b]

Footnotes
b.Romans 3:12 Psalms 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Eccles. 7:20

Let us look at Psalm 14 that Paul is quoting. (Note that Psalm 53 is a near word for word duplicate of Psalm 14.)

Psalm 14
1 The fool[a] says in his heart,
“There is no God.�
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good.

2 The LORD looks down from heaven
on all mankind
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.

4 Do all these evildoers know nothing?

They devour my people as though eating bread;
they never call on the LORD.
5 But there they are, overwhelmed with dread,
for God is present in the company of the righteous.
6 You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor,
but the LORD is their refuge.

7 Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When the LORD restores his people,
let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!

Footnotes:
a. Psalm 14:1 The Hebrew words rendered fool in Psalms denote one who is morally deficient.

The Psalm is talking about the morally deficient (Footnote a), who are called corrupt, vile etc. These are the ones about which it is said “there is no one who does good, not even one�. It does not say that no one does good, just that the morally deficient do not. Is anyone righteous? Sure. V 5 tells us that “God is present in the company of the righteous�. Who are the righteous? The ones who are not the “evildoers� (v 4); the ones who are “my people� being oppressed by those evildoers.

The righteous are those who do not do evil. A far cry from Paul’s claim that no one does good. An out of context, misrepresented quote.

The footnote to Romans also mentions Ecclesiastes. That is a one liner in the midst of the Preacher’s typical despair about life being meaningless and there being no afterlife. Hardly relevant to the topic.

[connermt]

According to the book of Acts, the very reason why the Church spread so fast...was because of straight up miracles.

Modern "Liberal Christianity" may try to assert that they never happened in the first place....but then how do they explain the drastic expansion of the Christian religion? And if such writing is mere "poetry" and didn't happen, what was the "poetry" supposed to mean? Does the very basis of what happens in Acts refute the positions of "Liberal Christianity?"

And "Conservative Christians" who maintain that they did happen....don't exactly have miracles happen in public like in Acts or as Paul supposedly described in Corinthians (another difficult issue for Liberal Christians to explain why Paul was talking about miracles and prophecying).

Some "Charismatic" movements may have "gift of tongues" events, but they go completely against what the "gift of tongues" is supposed to be, it was meant to be a miraculous showing that enabled believers to actually communicate with others of a foreign tongue, not just babbling away. Paul even forbade using the gift of tongues if there was no interpreter.

Paul was even apparently to raise people from the dead and heal the sick just like Jesus. In fact, according to the Gospels, Jesus said that the disciples would be able to do works greater than him. What happened since?

According to Acts, there is indeed supposed to be an actual showing of who is a "True Christian", in the form of miraculous happenings. What happened? When did they cease?

Did the early church spread so fast because of the word of these miracles? If not, what caused the Christian religion to spread so quickly?

Were the NT scriptures indeed saying that true believers would be able to perform miracles on a scale like Jesus did? Does it not say that all church members will receive some kind of gift, including prophecy? If believers don't have these gifts, are they, in scriptural terms, lying when they say they have the Spirit then? Is Christianity supposed to be a miracle-based religion in its original form? Are those who claim to believe in Christ but don't perform such miracles therefore not filled with the Spirit and thus not true members of the church? Or is there an explanation why there are no raisings of the dead and healings of the sick like in the days of Paul and the disciples (faith healing shows don't count).

Is it fair to conclude that the original point of the scriptural "Church" was to be a part of an organization that actually performed amazing miracles? When did the healing of the lame and raising of the dead cease and for what reason?

(Note: This thread is in discussion of the scriptural definition, there is no need to establish that said miracles are possible or that the events actually happened, it is a discussion of the relevance of such to modern and historical "Christians".)

Science has slowly been replacing god and the need for god. This included miracles. Beyond that, most "miracles' were likely mis-understood natural occurences and/or straight out lies. Remember, the bible, especially the NT, is a very politically motivated writing.

[Ambie4]

Shermana - your topic and comments inspired me to start my own related topic. Being a newbie here, I did not set it up correctly and so it got moved to Random Ramblings. However, it would be great if you could refer to the post because it specifically addresses your topic.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 014#450014