God and the U.S. Political Parties

[micatala]

Those who follow the U.S. politcal scene are certainly more than aware of the role that religion and moral issues have been playing. The 'conventional wisdom' is that the Republicans are perceived as more in line with Christianity, at least according to them. Republicans have certainly played up the so-called moral issues of abortion and gay-marriage, arguably to their benefit.

The Democrats have begun to respond to this perception. In my home town in a very Red state, a billboard recently went up proclaiming something like "Jesus cares for the poor. So do we. Grassroots Democrats."

So, the question is, to put it a little baldly

Which party is really more Godly?

Obviously 'Godly' is a loaded word, and I am not going to help you all much be restricting the definition. In the U.S. context, it would often be interpreted with respect to traditional Christian notions of God, especially conservative notions. However, debaters should feel free to make their own cases for what they consider Godly and why. Evidence from a variety of religious traditions is appropriate.

Now, I certainly have my own opinion, but I will say at the outset that I think there is ample evidence that can be cited for both parties that they support 'Godly' policies, and also that there will be ample evidence that each party supports ungodly policies.

I will note that this thread is arising out of some discussions in the Pat Robertson thread. Here is a relevant portion that can serve as initial examples of how the Republicans (in the sense that the religious right and the Republican party are allies) act in un-Godly ways.

AlAyeti wrote:
Please list the blindness and hypocrisy of the religious Right?

Although this is off-topic (since the topic is Pat Robertson), it is a legitimate question.

Item 1: This is an old one, but is courtesy of Pat himself, as well as Ronald Reagan. Both Pat and Ronald in the 1980's, although claiming to be supporters of democracy, instead supported the Contras in Nicaragua. The Contras were largely run by the CIA and ex-thugs of the former Somosa dictatorship. Somosa and company had ruled Nicaragua with a brutal fist for some 50 years prior to the Sandinista Revolution. Reagan had the audacity to call the Contras "the moral equivalent of our founding fathers." THis has got to be one of the most blatantly hypocritical political statements of all time.

Item 2: Many in the religious right have supported the war in Iraq, and have done so regardless of the rationale that has been offered for it. They have also done so despite the fact that a large number of innocent civilians have been killed. It is arguably hypocritical, given the teachings of Jesus, for a Christian of any stripe to support war.

Item 3: The religious right is all over homosexuals for deigning to suggest they should be allowed to get married. They cite Biblical passages like those in Romans. They conveniently forget that the passages mentioning homosexuality in the New Testament all (check me on this, but I believe it is ALL) mention a multitude of other sins. Most of the other sins are given little if any mention, and no one seems to be pushing for laws to regulate them, except murder. Is it not hypocritical to single out homosexuals for special legal treatment and not the other sins, especially when there is little if any Biblical justification for making religious beliefs have the force of civil law and apply it to believers and unbelievers alike?

Item 4: The religious right has a significant 'prosperity message' that tries to get believers to buy into the idea that 'rich is good'. Sadly lacking is Christ's teachings about the poor and the warnings against being rich. This preaching often amounts to little more than a way to extort money out of gullible believers.

Item 5: The religious right cries foul every time somebody takes issue with a government endorsement of Christian religion, conveniently ignoring that Christianity is the dominant religion in the U.S. and that Christianity deserves no more special legal protection than any other religion.

Item 6: Many in the religious right demonize their fellow believers who do not happen to share their political views. This is contrary to scriptural teaching as presented, for example, in Romans Chapter 14. "Who are you to judge another man's servant, to his own master he stands or falls?" When Christians of whatever stripe try to deny the Christianity of fellow believers simply because they believe evolution is a perfectly reasonable scientific theory, or because they vote democratic, or because they don't believe we are truly in the 'end times', they are taking unto themselves judgments that only God has the purview to make.

Now, obviously there is a lot of potential here for over-generalization, and I have even engaged in some of that in the above comments regarding the 'religious right'. There is certainly great diversity within the political parties and their supporters including groups like the 'religious right.' I would simply ask that we be aware of this as we proceed.

[McCulloch]

No Christian should be the member of any "political" party.

Just to clarify. How do you categorize those alleged Christians who are members of political parties? Are they false Christians? Or are they just mistaken? Are they sinning? What if the political party was a Christian one? Like the Christian Heritage Party of Canada? Do you believe that the Christians with their obviously superior ethical and moral basis should abandon the governance of our countries to the heathens and anti-christians and then complain when Christian principals are not adhered to in politics?

[MagusYanam]

That, I have made clear many, many times. I am not an Evangelist or a pastor. I was urged to come to this website to debate hypocrites, anti-Christians and non-Christians. I just use the language and methods of today.

Then you lose. Have you ever stopped to consider why you are on probation? You can't debate successfully with the language that is so popular today - the language of preschoolers who think argument is insult and vice versa. Don't use that language, use the language of civility and respect. That's the only language that will win you debates.

You need to see the truth. Abortion for any reason and at any time and without any oppostion IS the Democrat Platform on the issue. Again, do the research. Call the Democrats.

You will be shamed for speaking in ignorance. Here it is, the official Democratic Agenda:

Security, Opportunity, and Responsibility

* Keeping America Safe at Home
* Strength Overseas
* Honoring Our Troops, Veterans, and Their Families
* A Strong Economy
* Education
* Retirement Security
* Affordable Health Care
* Honest Government
* Election Reform
* Protecting Our Environment
* Civil Rights

The Democratic Party is committed to keeping our nation safe and expanding opportunity for every American. That commitment is reflected in an agenda that emphasizes the security of our nation, strong economic growth, affordable health care for all Americans, retirement security, honest government, and civil rights.

To learn more about the Democratic Party's commitment to security, opportunity, and responsibility, read about our agenda below.
Security

Keeping America Safe at Home

Democrats are unwavering in our commitment to keep our nation safe. That's why we led the fight to create the Department of Homeland Security and continue to fight to ensure that our ports, nuclear and chemical plants, and other sensitive facilities are secured against attack.

Democrats support fair immigration reform that keeps our borders secure. Democrats are also united to ensure that the world's most dangerous weapons stay out of the hands of terrorists. We will expand the pace and scope of programs to eliminate and safeguard nuclear materials, enhance efforts to keep these and other deadly materials out of the hands of terrorists, and assist state and local governments in equipping and training those responsible for dealing with the effects of terrorist attacks involving weapons of mass destruction. Read more about this topic...

Strength Overseas

Our nation stands as a shining example to all the world of freedom and democracy, a unique honor that comes with a responsibility to lead.

Democrats believe that strong international alliances are the cornerstone of our foreign policy. The threat from international terrorism and rogue states requires a new era of alliances led by the United States, based on mutual respect and shared vision. Read more about this topic...

Honoring Our Troops, Veterans, and Their Families

Democrats believe we must support our troops by modernizing our military to that it better meets the threats of the 21st century. We need to make sure we never send them to war without telling them the reasons they are being sent, giving them clear goals, supplying them with the best equipment available to keep them safe, and keeping our commitments to them when they return from war.

We will also continue to stand up for the families of those who serve our country, including income security and access to affordable health care. Read more about this topic...
Opportunity

A Strong Economy

If you want job creation, a strong economy, and a fiscally responsible federal government, there's only one choice: vote for Democrats. History has proven that Democrats know what it takes to keep our economy growing.

* Expanding economic opportunity. Democrats believe that the most effective means of increasing opportunity for our families is a high quality, good paying job. We are committed to expanding economic opportunity to all Americans and creating the new jobs of the future.
* Fiscal responsibility. The Democratic Party believes in balanced budgets and paying down our national debt, while Republicans continue to put huge burdens on future generations by borrowing hundreds of billions of dollars from foreign nations.
* Fair trade. Creating jobs at home means opening markets abroad. The Democratic Party supports fair trade agreements that raise standards for workers abroad while making American business more competitive. We will also fight for stronger enforcement of our existing trade agreements.

Read more about this topic...

Education

Democrats know that the key to expanding opportunity is to provide every child with a world-class education. We want to meet our responsibilities to America's children by ensuring that our schools have the resources they need to help our kids meet high standards.

Democrats will also help expand educational opportunities for college by providing relief from skyrocketing college tuition, increasing the size and access to Pell Grants and supporting proven programs that encourage more young people to attend and succeed in college. Read more about this topic...

Retirement Security

Democrats believe that after a life of hard work, you earn a secure retirement. Our commitment to protecting the promise of Social Security is absolute. We will not allow anyone to endanger Social Security or take even a single step toward dismantling it. We are open to any and all ideas that ensure that the current and future generations of retirees receive the benefits they were promised without heaping trillions onto our national debt.

Democrats also recognize that Americans rely on more than just Social Security for a secure retirement. Democrats will continue to fight for genuine pension reform that protects working families from future Enron-style abuse. We also want to work on new ways to help hard-working Americans create retirement savings. Read more about this topic...

Affordable Health Care

In the wealthiest, most powerful nation on earth, no one should have to choose between taking their child to a doctor or paying the rent. Democrats are committed to making sure every single American has access to affordable, effective health care coverage.

We can make sure every American has that access while preserving the high quality of our health care and keeping the choices that we enjoy. We can leave decisions about health care to patients and doctors, keeping the government and insurance companies out.

Democrats will not stop fighting this battle until every single American has access to the health care they need. Read more about this topic...
Responsibility

Honest Government

The Democratic Party is committed to genuine reform that protects our rights and ensures that elected officials act ethically -- not just within the law, but within the spirit of the law.

An honest and ethical government requires constant vigilance and a continuous dedication to reform. Democrats support reform principles that preserve the people's trust in government.

It was overwhelming support from Democrats that allowed the McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform to pass. Democrats continue to making protecting and promoting our right to vote a top priority. And Democrats in Congress are leading the fight for a meaningful ethics process that holds everyone -- including the leadership -- responsible for their actions. Read more about this topic...

Election Reform

A fundamental tenet of our democracy is our right to vote and to have that vote counted. But we must be vigilant in protecting those rights and ensuring that our voting system works for every American.

Democrats are determined to reforming the voting system in this country to create federal standards for our elections. Our voting system must include verification, accountability, and accuracy. Democrats want to increase access to polls with Election Day registration, shorter lines, and early voting. We also want to modernize election equipment and increase impartiality. Read more about this topic...

Protecting Our Environment

The Democratic Party believes that it is our responsibility to protect America's extraordinary natural resources. The health of our families, the strength of our economy, and the fate of our world all depend on our stewardship of the environment.

We reject the false choice between a healthy economy and a healthy environment. We know instead that farming, fishing, tourism, and other industries require a healthy environment. We know new technologies that protect the environment can create new high-paying jobs. We know a cleaner environment means a stronger economy.

Far too many Americans live with unhealthy air or water quality. Democrats will fight to strengthen the laws that ensure we have clean air to breathe and clean water to drink. And Democrats will make sure these laws our enforced. Rising rates of asthma and mercury poisoning are just two of the dire consequences of ignoring environmental problems.

Democrats know that a sensible energy policy is key to a strong economy, our national security, and a clean environment. Democrats are committed to the next generation of affordable and renewable energy for the 21st center and to conservation measures -- like increased CAFE standards -- that will immediately reduce our dependence on foreign oil. Read more about this topic...

Civil Rights & Justice

Democrats are unwavering in our support of equal opportunity for all Americans. That's why we worked to pass the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act and will work to ensure reauthorization of the Voting Rights Act in 2007.

On every civil rights issue, Democrats lead the fight. Democrats support expanding opportunities in jobs, health care benefits, and education. We support vigorous enforcement of civil rights laws. Read more about this topic...

This comes straight from www.democrats.org, and this is what I vote for when I do vote. I vote for a healthy environment, fiscal responsibility, honesty in public policy and sufficiency for even the poorest members of society. Nowhere in the platform does it support 'abortion for any reason'.

I, as a Christian, cannot go to Christ on judgment day and talk about my marching with Planned Parenthood.

Too bad. I was taught as a Christian that on the Last Day I shall be held accountable for my own actions, not for the actions of others, even if they are my associates.

I pray forgiveness of what I have done and what I would be supporting others to do. Abortion is without any rational argumment a form of birth control. Magus, you support that with a vote.

I've told you what I support with my vote. Abortion as birth control is not it, as I have demonstrated.

[AlAyeti]

Magus,

Have you ever bought a used car?

You get promises and have to deal with reality when you shift the car a few days later after the gimmick wears off.

I hear Democrats and then I see what they do. My country is Gomorrah becuase of those people.

I'm a big boy and I know exactly why I am on probation.

My head doesn't wobble along with the crowd either.

I know exactly what the disciple felt in the garden next to Jesus when he was arrested. You know the guy with the sword.

I know I should be nicer but it's hard to see what traitors and the rabble do to the Lord of glory. Still.

But I believe my positions are understood by 99% of my fellow-debaters.

AlAyeti wrote:
That, I have made clear many, many times. I am not an Evangelist or a pastor. I was urged to come to this website to debate hypocrites, anti-Christians and non-Christians. I just use the language and methods of today.


Then you lose. Have you ever stopped to consider why you are on probation? You can't debate successfully with the language that is so popular today - the language of preschoolers who think argument is insult and vice versa. Don't use that language, use the language of civility and respect. That's the only language that will win you debates.

Lose what Magus? Respect? From whom?

Win what? An argument that has been waged for two thousand years? Even I am not the confident.

I am just confident that all the bad things in the Bible are coming true. Which, of course, means all of the good things are true too!

How does that Newsboys song go?

Woo hoo wooo hoo woohoo woo hoo. And the people say . . .

[MagusYanam]

Magus,

Have you ever bought a used car?

You get promises and have to deal with reality when you shift the car a few days later after the gimmick wears off.

I hear Democrats and then I see what they do. My country is Gomorrah becuase of those people.

Hey, you asked me to do the research and 'call the Democrats', so that's what I did. And I presented the evidence, which is more than can be claimed for you.

My parents gave me some tips on buying a used car. They told me to listen to the dealer, look for myself at the car, drive it around and get it looked at by a third party (a mechanic, preferably) on the test drive. I've got my own opinions on the Democrats, my own observations on local and national politics, and the opinions of people whom I trust with my life (my parents) to work from.

Democrats are gimmicky, as we can expect them to be. They waver on a lot of issues. But they are far and away preferable to the alternative, especially as concerns use of public land, use of public funds and use of international power. Which would you buy - the shiny Benz with the really bad repair record or the beat-up Corolla that still runs? I put my vote with the people that best represent my interests. The Democrats' Corolla has been running since the 'thirties, and it hasn't stopped yet.

I'm a big boy and I know exactly why I am on probation.

A 'big boy' learns from his mistakes.

Lose what Magus? Respect? From whom?

Win what? An argument that has been waged for two thousand years? Even I am not the confident.

Then I ask again, what are you here for? If you're not here to convince people, and you're not here to figure things out for yourself, and you're not here to participate in serious, civil debates, then what is it that you're aiming for? Are you just trying to be the biggest bully on the block? Because that's what it looks like from here.

I know exactly what the disciple felt in the garden next to Jesus when he was arrested. You know the guy with the sword.

And guess what Jesus did? He rebuked Simon Peter (as he had to do every so often) and bade him sheathe his sword after he had struck off Malchus' ear. What would Jesus had done if Simon Peter had refused to obey? That's the position the moderators are in.

[AlAyeti]

AlAyeti wrote:
Magus,

Have you ever bought a used car?

You get promises and have to deal with reality when you shift the car a few days later after the gimmick wears off.

I hear Democrats and then I see what they do. My country is Gomorrah becuase of those people.


Hey, you asked me to do the research and 'call the Democrats', so that's what I did. And I presented the evidence, which is more than can be claimed for you.

Clap, clap, clap, clap. Fair enough. (I believe I present evidence more than often.) Nero for example. My compliment does not come with a surrender though.

My parents gave me some tips on buying a used car. They told me to listen to the dealer, look for myself at the car, drive it around and get it looked at by a third party (a mechanic, preferably) on the test drive. I've got my own opinions on the Democrats, my own observations on local and national politics, and the opinions of people whom I trust with my life (my parents) to work from.

If you are listening to your parents than I have no place but respect to view your opinions. I'm a fundamentalist remember?

Democrats are gimmicky, as we can expect them to be. They waver on a lot of issues. But they are far and away preferable to the alternative, especially as concerns use of public land, use of public funds and use of international power.

It is there similarity with socialist countries that worries me. Gas is expensive enough. If we go commie with incrediblly high taxation, it'll be ten-dollars a gallon and Kennedy, Kerry, Boxer, Feinstein and Pelosi, will still be filthy rich.

Which would you buy - the shiny Benz with the really bad repair record or the beat-up Corolla that still runs? I put my vote with the people that best represent my interests. The Democrats' Corolla has been running since the 'thirties, and it hasn't stopped yet.

In California the Libs are in the Beemers and Benz and the gated communities and the poor Republicans are still driving their old trucks in the San Gabriel Valley where they can somewhat still afford houses. Wait until you see what has happened to your parents' Democrat party in the peoples republic of nutballs.

AlAyeti wrote:
I'm a big boy and I know exactly why I am on probation.

A 'big boy' learns from his mistakes.

My reaction to defend myself and other Cristians from the same tired relentless dwarfish screed of secular chaos gets the better of me. I'm sure it will cost me.

AlAyeti wrote:
Lose what Magus? Respect? From whom?

Win what? An argument that has been waged for two thousand years? Even I am not the confident.

Then I ask again, what are you here for? If you're not here to convince people, and you're not here to figure things out for yourself, and you're not here to participate in serious, civil debates, then what is it that you're aiming for?

Seriuos? I'm very serious. Defending marriage and family from the moral-carcinogen inherent in hedonistic Liberalism is as serious as it gets. When chaos becomes a civil right, I do not want the Lord finding His people with a ballot of acceptance in their hands. Civil debate is not having to agree with every leftist godless evolutionary dribble that masquerades as frethinking in one after another, after another, after another "debate" between "debaters."

There is a solid unpassable line that seperates Christ from a chimp.

Are you just trying to be the biggest bully on the block? Because that's what it looks like from here.

Really? Who is Goliath from "your" side on these boards? It seems that you agree with everything the garden-variety Darwinist does. I philosophically challenge my opposition, it is fairly enjoyable and in that there is sin I do agree. But laughter is also good for the health. And I do so enjoy some reactions. I'm not looking for a pity-party. Trust me I haven't suffered so much as a bruise of my belief system.

AlAyeti wrote:
I know exactly what the disciple felt in the garden next to Jesus when he was arrested. You know the guy with the sword.

And guess what Jesus did? He rebuked Simon Peter (as he had to do every so often) and bade him sheathe his sword after he had struck off Malchus' ear. What would Jesus had done if Simon Peter had refused to obey?

Very well said. I submit to truth and truth only.

That's the position the moderators are in.

Really!!? They sit back and watch 200-plius insults directed at Christians be posted as a thread discussion. They let pet-atheists post absurdities for no other reason but denigrate one individual.

Like I wrote, I'm a big boy and I know what was done and why. I should have known better than to put my neck into a noose and not expect it to be yanked.

But me being a bully? One guy on a playground surrounded while some look in from time to time, is hardly the defintion of "the" bully.

If your Democrat party would rid itself of the death of the unborn and the redefining of family and marriage to include what it cannot, I would sign up tomorrow. Also the taxation thing is bad as well. Oh, and the Unions connection. And also getting rid of the insulting senator from Massachusetts wouldn't be a bad idea either. And Leahy and the othrs I already mentioned.

[MagusYanam]

Democrats are gimmicky, as we can expect them to be. They waver on a lot of issues. But they are far and away preferable to the alternative, especially as concerns use of public land, use of public funds and use of international power.[/quote]

It is there similarity with socialist countries that worries me. Gas is expensive enough. If we go commie with incrediblly high taxation, it'll be ten-dollars a gallon and Kennedy, Kerry, Boxer, Feinstein and Pelosi, will still be filthy rich.[/quote]

The reason why gas is so expensive has nothing to do with our current taxation policy (or if it does, you should thank your stars it's not already ten dollars a gallon). It's a supply issue - our useful supply of fossil fuel is diminishing rapidly and our demand is getting even higher. We're expected to hit peak production in less than twenty years, and when that happens, no tax policy, no matter how scant, is going to help the price of gas come down from five or ten dollars a gallon.

If you don't have reasonably high taxation, you lose all social coherence. Government breaks down, people stop investing in it and you have, in essence, anarchy, chaos and a Hobbesian state of nature. The government needs to keep functioning smoothly and productively in order for our society to maintain itself. To do that, it needs money - and it can't get that anywhere other than its citizenry. High taxation does not equal communism; in many cases it equals fiscal responsibility and good governance.

California's not a good measure for anything political, really, since you have Hollywood and San Fransisco and the San Gabe Valley all in relatively short distance from one another.

Especially since in New England, it's the Republican defence contractors who drive the Bimmers and the Benzes - the rest of us drive Dodges or Toyotas (if we can afford them). In the Midwest, we have no real 'gated communities' and everyone drives inexpensive cars, usually of American make. There's a reason the Midwest has a reputation for being the common-sense centre of this country.

And guess what? Most of us up here are De-Mo-Crats!

Defending marriage and family from the moral-carcinogen inherent in hedonistic Liberalism is as serious as it gets.

Liberalism morally carcinogenic? If that's the case, all the moral bastions of conservatism must be deluged with radon, since I'm not seeing most of the vulgarity, racism, violence, anti-intellectualism and greed in this country coming from this side of the public debate, that's for sure.

[AlAyeti]

The reason why gas is so expensive has nothing to do with our current taxation policy (or if it does, you should thank your stars it's not already ten dollars a gallon). It's a supply issue - our useful supply of fossil fuel is diminishing rapidly and our demand is getting even higher. We're expected to hit peak production in less than twenty years, and when that happens, no tax policy, no matter how scant, is going to help the price of gas come down from five or ten dollars a gallon.

Innovation will take its natural course. Oil and cars are not the only way to get to and fro. But taxing people to pay for insane social programs should be fought at every level.

If you don't have reasonably high taxation, you lose all social coherence.

Social coherence? Please define THAT.

Government breaks down, people stop investing in it and you have, in essence, anarchy, chaos and a Hobbesian state of nature.

Thomas Hobbes? His golden rule is not a Christian concept.

Taxation IS NOT people investing in society. It is robbing good people to pay for the lazy to stay lazy. That is if current Liberalism is any guide. Chaos and anarchy exist in the most "Blue" cities in America!

The government needs to keep functioning smoothly and productively in order for our society to maintain itself.

Limited government, VERY limited government!

To do that, it needs money - and it can't get that anywhere other than its citizenry.

Business runs the economy. An employed citizenry. California is suffering a stream of wage earners leaving that state because high taxation is oppressive.

High taxation does not equal communism; in many cases it equals fiscal responsibility and good governance.

That is pie-in-the sky thinking. New Orleans is a perfect example that "government" is worthless to "run things." Good people are the best answer.

California's not a good measure for anything political, really, since you have Hollywood and San Fransisco and the San Gabe Valley all in relatively short distance from one another.

I will not gloat too long for the validation of my views in that response.

Especially since in New England, it's the Republican defence contractors who drive the Bimmers and the Benzes - the rest of us drive Dodges or Toyotas (if we can afford them).

Mmmm, I think that rich Libs dominate the East. I've been to Massachusetts.

In the Midwest, we have no real 'gated communities' and everyone drives inexpensive cars, usually of American make. There's a reason the Midwest has a reputation for being the common-sense centre of this country.

I'm looking at the possibilty of a life in the midwest. I do not want to and will not raise my children in California. To me Liberal means the worst in terms of children. I am an empiricist, unfortunatley, and California is sickening when it comes to what it does to kids. It leads the nation by far in abortions.

And guess what? Most of us up here are De-Mo-Crats!

Yes, "Con-Serv-A-Tive De-Mo-Crats." There is a Lutheran chuch on every block in Illinois. And on every other corner is a similar church. That is out in the suburbs away from the Leftists in Chigago. If the Dems could rid themselves of the sexual deviants and abortionist parasites that infest all-things Democrat, I would campaign for whoever ran on their ticket. And I did well for Bush in Florida I can tell you proudly.

AlAyeti wrote:
Defending marriage and family from the moral-carcinogen inherent in hedonistic Liberalism is as serious as it gets.

Liberalism morally carcinogenic? If that's the case, all the moral bastions of conservatism must be deluged with radon, since I'm not seeing most of the vulgarity, racism, violence, anti-intellectualism and greed in this country coming from this side of the public debate, that's for sure.

Violence? Racism? Vulgarity? Anti-Intellectualism? Greed?

How many conservatives use the term "Bitches and ho's" to describe women? How many gang-land slayings are there in those mid-west towns you know so well? How much prostitution is going on in suburbia?

If you go county by county in American politcs, the places you find the vast majority of Violence, Racism, Vulgarity, Anti-Intellectualism, Greed and other perversions, IS IN BLUE CITIES!

Please test that.

In fact, if you look at American politics BY COUNTIES, America looks like a GOP universe.

[ENIGMA]

The reason why gas is so expensive has nothing to do with our current taxation policy (or if it does, you should thank your stars it's not already ten dollars a gallon). It's a supply issue - our useful supply of fossil fuel is diminishing rapidly and our demand is getting even higher. We're expected to hit peak production in less than twenty years, and when that happens, no tax policy, no matter how scant, is going to help the price of gas come down from five or ten dollars a gallon.

Innovation will take its natural course. Oil and cars are not the only way to get to and fro.

For most of the people in suburbia who work downtown, it pretty much is.

While I was over in Europe, someone asked me why Americans don't use public transportation more. I described the extent of MARTA, the Atlanta metro system.

They laughed for about a minute straight. I don't blame them.

Every city in Europe that I visited (Barcelona, London, Paris, Oslo), a large portion of the city was easily within walking + metro distance. Getting from home to work in that fashion seems to be a fairly plausible option for many, if not most of those living there.

Unless you live in Five Points and work at Hartsfield Airport, then good luck doing that here.

Taxation IS NOT people investing in society. It is robbing good people to pay for the lazy to stay lazy. That is if current Liberalism is any guide. Chaos and anarchy exist in the most "Blue" cities in America!

Spoken like one whose main objection to just shooting the "lazy" would be the cost of ammo and expenditure of time and energy.

The government needs to keep functioning smoothly and productively in order for our society to maintain itself.

Limited government, VERY limited government!

We currently have the worst of both a limited government and a big government. Namely, big government since of all the various programs that the government has created that require funding (such as the ones to protect Montana from a terrorist attack. Thank you, Dept. of Homeland Security), and a funding shortage because of all the cash we're pumping into Iraq, which will likely simply be another country effectively governed by Sharia Law by the time we leave.

High taxation does not equal communism; in many cases it equals fiscal responsibility and good governance.

That is pie-in-the sky thinking. New Orleans is a perfect example that "government" is worthless to "run things." Good people are the best answer.

No, New Orleans is a perfect example of why the notion that leaving relief efforts to the private sector where the local private sector happens to be situated in an area that recently became part of the gulf is an idiotic idea, and terminally so when used as a basis for action by the President and the head of FEMA.

Liberalism morally carcinogenic? If that's the case, all the moral bastions of conservatism must be deluged with radon, since I'm not seeing most of the vulgarity, racism, violence, anti-intellectualism and greed in this country coming from this side of the public debate, that's for sure.

Violence? Racism? Vulgarity? Anti-Intellectualism? Greed?

How many conservatives use the term "Bitches and ho's" to describe women?

Eminem counts as a conservative in my book.

Should I cite lyrics or would you care to concede the point?

In fact, if you look at American politics BY COUNTIES, America looks like a GOP universe.

...and if we count all the trees, we get a huge boost for the Green party.

[AlAyeti]

AlAyeti wrote:
Quote:
The reason why gas is so expensive has nothing to do with our current taxation policy (or if it does, you should thank your stars it's not already ten dollars a gallon). It's a supply issue - our useful supply of fossil fuel is diminishing rapidly and our demand is getting even higher. We're expected to hit peak production in less than twenty years, and when that happens, no tax policy, no matter how scant, is going to help the price of gas come down from five or ten dollars a gallon.

Innovation will take its natural course. Oil and cars are not the only way to get to and fro.

For most of the people in suburbia who work downtown, it pretty much is.

While I was over in Europe, someone asked me why Americans don't use public transportation more. I described the extent of MARTA, the Atlanta metro system.

They laughed for about a minute straight. I don't blame them.

Every city in Europe that I visited (Barcelona, London, Paris, Oslo), a large portion of the city was easily within walking + metro distance. Getting from home to work in that fashion seems to be a fairly plausible option for many, if not most of those living there.

Unless you live in Five Points and work at Hartsfield Airport, then good luck doing that here.

And Europe has used other means of transportation. It will become necessary for America inevitably. The only problem will be the Democrats lying in wait to legislate and tax the living garbage out of the companies wanting to bring in the new technology.

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Taxation IS NOT people investing in society. It is robbing good people to pay for the lazy to stay lazy. That is if current Liberalism is any guide. Chaos and anarchy exist in the most "Blue" cities in America!

Spoken like one whose main objection to just shooting the "lazy" would be the cost of ammo and expenditure of time and energy.

I am a Born-Again Fundamentalist Christian and that remark is a personal afront and you know it. Violence is not allowed to a Christian.

If morality and role models replaced those in a licentious culture that views the term "my baby's daddy" as some kind of respectable jargon, then there would be solid families raising fine children. Right now in Democrat strong-hold cities, this is not the case.

From welfare to nuclear familes is a conservative doctine but is seen as racism and a hate crime by Liberals. President Bush has tried to make overtures to reward "marriage and family" and the Liberal Democrats went all-out to denigrate that concept. And some of these Democrats and Liberals say they are Christians. Family and marriage and how to treat children is well-defined by Christ Himself.

Chrsitians bring truth. The bullets and violence you mentioned is easily defined for what it is by reading the Gospels. You may want to see who in these Democrat cities are actually using guns and bullets.

The government needs to keep functioning smoothly and productively in order for our society to maintain itself.

Limited government, VERY limited government!

We currently have the worst of both a limited government and a big government. Namely, big government since of all the various programs that the government has created that require funding (such as the ones to protect Montana from a terrorist attack. Thank you, Dept. of Homeland Security), and a funding shortage because of all the cash we're pumping into Iraq, which will likely simply be another country effectively governed by Sharia Law by the time we leave.

I couldn't agree more with your assement of Iraq. But if Muslim's do not have a desire for freedom all we can do is give it to them and watch them cast it away. Still, the soldiers of America have done what American heroes always have.

High taxation does not equal communism; in many cases it equals fiscal responsibility and good governance.

That is pie-in-the sky thinking. New Orleans is a perfect example that "government" is worthless to "run things." Good people are the best answer.

No, New Orleans is a perfect example of why the notion that leaving relief efforts to the private sector where the local private sector happens to be situated in an area that recently became part of the gulf is an idiotic idea, and terminally so when used as a basis for action by the President and the head of FEMA.

New Orlleans is a perfect example of the Perfection inherent in Christianity. While local goverment was devoid of worth and federal government was pure red-tape, Christians were feeding and clothing and housing VICTIMS. Even secualr TV could not stop the stories of the masses of people helped by Church after Church after Church.

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Liberalism morally carcinogenic? If that's the case, all the moral bastions of conservatism must be deluged with radon, since I'm not seeing most of the vulgarity, racism, violence, anti-intellectualism and greed in this country coming from this side of the public debate, that's for sure.

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Violence? Racism? Vulgarity? Anti-Intellectualism? Greed?

How many conservatives use the term "Bitches and ho's" to describe women?

Eminem counts as a conservative in my book.

Should I cite lyrics or would you care to concede the point?

Yes. Now after I talked with Matthew, I would show him the door and how that his views on family and mariage line up more accurately with Liberal-Progressive-Democrat politics. Please reference the term "My baby's daddy?" I do believe this is Eminems demographic as well. No? Don't bother conceding the point.

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In fact, if you look at American politics BY COUNTIES, America looks like a GOP universe.

...and if we count all the trees, we get a huge boost for the Green party.

Do you mean the trees that should be used to build houses for the por instead of "projects" we see in all of those blue "cities?" The trees that greenies live in to deny "progress" and evolution?

I love politics don't you?

[otseng]

Spoken like one whose main objection to just shooting the "lazy" would be the cost of ammo and expenditure of time and energy.

Please avoid making comments on a personal level. Thanks.