Using logic and reason to oppose abortion...

[questioner4]

Okay, even though I've been questioning my faith for over a year, I am still firmly pro-life - although I believe 'traditional' pro-lifers go about it the wrong way. I believe thast abortion is wrong, because I oppose discrimination on all grounds. I believe it is being discriminatory to deny basic human rights to the smallest humans, simply because they are still dependant on the mother. It really would be nice to hear people oppose abortion on grounds other than the Bible.

Anyway, what do you guys think? Are you a 'non-traditional pro-lifer'? If you are Christian and pro-life, can you think of any non-Biblical reasons to oppose abortion?

[juliod]

I think there should be a distinction between elective and medically required abortions.

There is, and always will be. But the issue is a red herring as for as the abortion debate is concerned. The question is whether the state is empowered to inprison doctors for performing a certain procedure. The question as to elective vs necessary is only relevant if abortion is fully legal. If the anti-abortionists succeed in getting abortion linked to murder, then "medically necessary" will not be sufficient.

I'm trying to grasp how your view would work in practice. I guess your view is the woman can have the baby removed whenever she wants and if it lives it lives. If not its an abortion.

I'm not really taking a position on elective abortions, merely saying that it needs to be legal at any time, as it effectively is. I don't know if there are any examples of women wanting to have an elective abortion at a point where the fetus may be capable of survival and development.

DanZ

[juliod]

Sperm are only part of the process of making a human.

Nope. They are human, 100%. They are even free-living and can survive outside their father.

In any case, they contain the DNA you were using in your attempt to oppose abortion. Now you say that DNA is unimportant. Are you retracting your claim?

I have only recognized the truth in the science of DNA to prove a persons worth.

So an embryo is not a human. It seems you are retracting your statement. Fine.

Before I stigmatize the above, what "victory" are you declaring?

That there is no argument based on logic and reason opposes abortion.

I was a mid-twenties "wild and crazy guy," when I saw "The Silent Scream" I almost had a nervous breakdown.

Many medical procedures are very unsettling. I saw a doco on a woman with a facial deformity having her facial bones cut free from her skull and shifted a few centimeters. It was really gross. I recommend that you never ever look into infectious diseases.

Should abortion be a birth control method?

Yup. It's safe and effective. I think they should be performed free and the women given a reward of $50 to show social approval of the process.

DanZ

[AlAyeti]

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Sperm are only part of the process of making a human.

Nope. They are human, 100%. They are even free-living and can survive outside their father.

In any case, they contain the DNA you were using in your attempt to oppose abortion. Now you say that DNA is unimportant. Are you retracting your claim?

You know little of DNA. We're on the web right now. Please, you're embarassing this deabte. Also, trying to prop up my argument from your mouth (so to speak) is a very rookie debate tactic. Grabbing at straws are we?

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I have only recognized the truth in the science of DNA to prove a persons worth.

So an embryo is not a human. It seems you are retracting your statement. Fine.

Again all of the DNA "of" a human being "half from the mother and half from the father" is present at the moment of "conception." You can verify that all by yourself. Your tact is a bit flawed and I'm am being untypically polite here.

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Before I stigmatize the above, what "victory" are you declaring?

That there is no argument based on logic and reason opposes abortion.

Pure scientific fact is usually where you would find both reason and logic.

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I was a mid-twenties "wild and crazy guy," when I saw "The Silent Scream" I almost had a nervous breakdown.

Many medical procedures are very unsettling. I saw a doco on a woman with a facial deformity having her facial bones cut free from her skull and shifted a few centimeters. It was really gross. I recommend that you never ever look into infectious diseases.

Note that the doctors you are presenting are observing the Hypocratic oath in the surgery and saving a life. And, violating that oath is what an abortionist would do from killing unborn children. You can look that up while you are surfing the net looking up DNA.

I watch these kinds of operations quite often on Discovery. The saving of lives is a joy to me.

When have you watched an abortion? There is no joy in abortion just cold hard facts of a cold hard trash can for a little child to spend its few moments of life, and the beginning of a lifetime of regret fot its "mother." You should do that research too, while your at it!

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Should abortion be a birth control method?

Yup. It's safe and effective. I think they should be performed free and the women given a reward of $50 to show social approval of the process.

I'll ignore the pitiless cruelty as I know it is presenteed for carnival horror effect but, abortion safe and effective? Than why the need for all of the horror stories about how unsafe "illegal" abortions were?

DanZ,

[juliod]

Again all of the DNA "of" a human being "half from the mother and half from the father" is present at the moment of "conception." You can verify that all by yourself. Your tact is a bit flawed and I'm am being untypically polite here.

Aside from quoting irrelevant items, the other problem you seem to have is in not answering the actual question. Do you support criminal prosecution for people who make frozen embryos but make no attempt to incubate and birth them?

You know little of DNA.

I may know little about DNA (Me: Ph.D. Bolecular Biology) but you are flitting back and forth as to whether DNA is the determinant of "life". You need to make a decision. If you stick to your original claim, then you need to deal with the existance and death of all the millions of sperms and the eggs that never become embryos. By your view, my existance denies a million other people the chance to live. That would make each one of us the worst genocidal maniacs the world ever knew.

Pure scientific fact is usually where you would find both reason and logic.

Pure scientific fact says that abortion is a safe and effective means of birth control.

Than why the need for all of the horror stories about how unsafe "illegal" abortions were?

Because illegal abortions were exceptionally unsafe. That's another point for my side. There's no way to stop women from seeking abortions. You can only stop them from having them in a safe and legal setting.

If you wanted to reduce abortions you should be pushing for sex ed and contraception. But you can't do that because it might lead to "hedonism".

So, as a conservative, you only have a choice between making things bad or making things worse.

DanZ

[AlAyeti]

Quote:
Again all of the DNA "of" a human being "half from the mother and half from the father" is present at the moment of "conception." You can verify that all by yourself. Your tact is a bit flawed and I'm am being untypically polite here.

Aside from quoting irrelevant items, the other problem you seem to have is in not answering the actual question. Do you support criminal prosecution for people who make frozen embryos but make no attempt to incubate and birth them?

I would prosecute people turning them into products. I have pity and compassion for men and women wanting to have children and seeking the invitro method that created those human embryo's. I would view their destruction as incredible sadness and would hope for adoption. That is a natural choice as well.

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You know little of DNA.

I may know little about DNA (Me: Ph.D. Bolecular Biology) but you are flitting back and forth as to whether DNA is the determinant of "life". You need to make a decision. If you stick to your original claim, then you need to deal with the existance and death of all the millions of sperms and the eggs that never become embryos. By your view, my existance denies a million other people the chance to live. That would make each one of us the worst genocidal maniacs the world ever knew.

That is absurd. Natural processes are a far cry from complicity in murder. Sperm lives and dies every day in the natural order of things.

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Pure scientific fact is usually where you would find both reason and logic.

Pure scientific fact says that abortion is a safe and effective means of birth control.

It is murder in the first degree and neither safe or effective for the human being being aborted. A simple ultrasound can show you "who and what" is being killed in an abortion.

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Than why the need for all of the horror stories about how unsafe "illegal" abortions were?

Because illegal abortions were exceptionally unsafe. That's another point for my side. There's no way to stop women from seeking abortions. You can only stop them from having them in a safe and legal setting.

Certainly your side wins one for a heartless pitiless choice. No denying that. There is a way of stopping good women from having abortions. Raise them.

If you wanted to reduce abortions you should be pushing for sex ed and contraception. But you can't do that because it might lead to "hedonism".

Crap role models and liars leads to hedonism. If I could show abortions to pregnant women that would reduce many abortions. Especially show the woman her child within her. I know women that have had abortions and they never looked at an ultrasound.

So, as a conservative, you only have a choice between making things bad or making things worse.

That would be by becoming a Liberal.

[juliod]

I would prosecute people turning them into products. I have pity and compassion for men and women wanting to have children and seeking the invitro method that created those human embryo's. I would view their destruction as incredible sadness and would hope for adoption. That is a natural choice as well.

Is that yes or a no, to the question of procecuting people who make embryos that don't become live babies?

Is it permissible in your view to implant 4-6 embryos when you know that most or all of them won't survive? Isn't that also murder in your view?

Natural processes are a far cry from complicity in murder. Sperm lives and dies every day in the natural order of things.

So do people, fetuses, and babies. The death rate is still 1, you know.

It is murder in the first degree and neither safe or effective for the human being being aborted.

Society does not now, and has not ever, accepted that view. There is no argument based on logic and reason that leads to this view.

There is a way of stopping good women from having abortions.

"Good" women. Again, we see how the anti-abortion view revolves around condemning other people. No logic and reason there.

If I could show abortions to pregnant women that would reduce many abortions.

Scare tactics aren't based on logic and reason.

So far, only Shieldaxe has suggested limits on abortion based on logic and reason, and he still wishes it to be legal. Apparently there isn't a logic and reason case against abortion.

DanZ

[ShieldAxe]

I think there should be a distinction between elective and medically required abortions.

There is, and always will be. But the issue is a red herring as for as the abortion debate is concerned. The question is whether the state is empowered to inprison doctors for performing a certain procedure. The question as to elective vs necessary is only relevant if abortion is fully legal. If the anti-abortionists succeed in getting abortion linked to murder, then "medically necessary" will not be sufficient.

Yup. I realize they will take a mile if they can get it. If they can chip away they'll do that.

I'm trying to grasp how your view would work in practice. I guess your view is the woman can have the baby removed whenever she wants and if it lives it lives. If not its an abortion.

I'm not really taking a position on elective abortions, merely saying that it needs to be legal at any time, as it effectively is. I don't know if there are any examples of women wanting to have an elective abortion at a point where the fetus may be capable of survival and development.

DanZ

I don't know either but its bound to come up.

[AlAyeti]

Quote:
It is murder in the first degree and neither safe or effective for the human being being aborted.

Society does not now, and has not ever, accepted that view. There is no argument based on logic and reason that leads to this view.

I'm part of society. So are the millions of Pro-Life advocates that believe that abortion is murder without doubt.

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There is a way of stopping good women from having abortions.

"Good" women. Again, we see how the anti-abortion view revolves around condemning other people. No logic and reason there.

I know, I know, "b -- - - hes and h-'s" are now rolemodels. MTV ahoy!

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If I could show abortions to pregnant women that would reduce many abortions.

Scare tactics aren't based on logic and reason.

Scare tactics or education and knowledge? You know, good ol' empiricism.

em-pir-i-cism (m-pr-szm)
n.
1. The view that experience, especially of the senses, is the only source of knowledge.
2.
a. Employment of empirical methods, as in science.
b. An empirical conclusion.
3. The practice of medicine that disregards scientific theory and relies solely on practical experience.

em-piri-cist n.

So far, only Shieldaxe has suggested limits on abortion based on logic and reason, and he still wishes it to be legal. Apparently there isn't a logic and reason case against abortion.

As much as I like arguing and taking sides, It's hard to imagine . . . that anyone could deliver a child feet first . . . look at those perfect little toes . . . heels . . calf muscles . . . little bitty thighs . . . tiny little backside . . . small tiny back . . . spine completly formed leading up to perfectly defined shaoulder blades . . . little bitty neck . . .

. . . and

. . . just as the little child's head is about out, stop there, take a pair of scissors, jam into the base of the babies skull and as its arms and legs flail out in four directions, take a vacuum tube, jam it up and into the childs brain and turn on the suction and empty the contents of its skull of its brain. Then the dead child slips easily out of its mother and into the hands of the abortionist for just the amount of time it takes this person to drop the lifeless body into a trash can.

Using logic and reason and empiricism, it is impossible to think that abortion is legal in a civilized and highly edicated "society."

[juliod]

Al, you've lost me completely with your latest reply.

I still don't know if you think that DNA makes a person. I still don't know if you think the formation of an embryo makes a person.

I'm sure that refering to "bad" women as "whores" and "bitches" makes you feel superior to them, but it just underlines the point that the anti-abortion position is based on condemnation of others and has nothing to do with abortion by itself.

You say "empiricism" as if that word by itself was an argument. The empirical facts are that abortion is a safe and effective means of birth control.

DanZ

[AlAyeti]

Al, you've lost me completely with your latest reply.

I am not surprised at all.

I still don't know if you think that DNA makes a person. I still don't know if you think the formation of an embryo makes a person.

Yes DNA makes a person. Ask the people on death row if it is proof of personhood and can define if a crime was comitted. Yes, an embryo is a person, with the same DNA at conception as when he or she dies of old age.

You have never heard the Pro-Life position before? It's easy to look up.

I'm sure that refering to "bad" women as "whores" and "bitches" makes you feel superior to them, but it just underlines the point that the anti-abortion position is based on condemnation of others and has nothing to do with abortion by itself.

I certainly do not feel superior, I just have a perspective that is based on pure empiricism of the worth of human beings.

You say "empiricism" as if that word by itself was an argument.

Look at your reply here:

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If I could show abortions to pregnant women that would reduce many abortions.

"Scare tactics aren't based on logic and reason."

Scare tactics? Looking at facts is somehow frightening and are lacking logic and reason?

If women were shown what is happening to the "mass of cells" within them, then abortion and sexual promiscuity would dwindle to something that happens to only the most debased of people. You certainly presnt that women that have abortions are being unjustly labeled as "bad." So let us see what is happening in the good choice of abortion.

Do you fear the truth? What is the problem? It is joyous to watch a doctor hack off a growing mass of cells off of the face of an afflicted person. What is the difference in showing the arms and legs and head being ripped away from a little growing nothing within a woman? You are claiming it is a good thing right?

The empirical facts are that abortion is a safe and effective means of birth control.

That is a mantra of secularism and reapeated for a reason. I know why. To hold the thought in a human mind for an instant of what is being done to healthy and beautiful children is to also be aborted from the mind in an instant.

So far, only Shieldaxe has suggested limits on abortion based on logic and reason, and he still wishes it to be legal.

Abortion should of course be legal for reasons other than birth control and convenience. That eliminates 99%. The incredible sadness that accompanies a couple grieving the loss of a child from a natural miscarriage is the place to find a rational place to reason out this issue. But to slaughter children for the rights of people to go on about their business is not logical nor is it human.

Apparently there isn't a logic and reason case against abortion.

Not in a mind that will not contemplate the worth of life. Also that the hypocrisy of being able to decide the issue of abortion is galringly obvious. That means that the person allowed to kill a child within the womb is not contemplating that they came from that same condition.

Not only is it barbaric, it is also mindless.