AlAyeti wrote:. . . And, compare. Let the scales of justice weigh the worth of ideologies that promote killing of innocent people. Russia. China, Cuba, Cambodia, N. Korea et al, the ACLU and Roe vs. Wade!
Christianty has no such teachings. Judge those that violate the teachings of Christ two ways. Societal laws or the Gospels. I OK with either. This puts a lot of non-godians where they belong.
Agreed. Christianity has no teachings to promote or justify people performing criminal or genocidal atrocities.
NEITHER DOES ATHEISM!!!!!!!!!!!
Therefore, let us set aside this silly 'football match' as bernee has put it.
No problem. And you see the worlds poor and starving are being fed by Christians. As of right this moment.
Again, agreed. However, Muslims also have a doctrine of helping the poor and starving, and many Muslims follow it religiously.
Al wrote:The KKK is an Aryan religious movement. It can be shown by evidence to not be following the Gospels.
Agreed, now be fair and apply the same logic to the groups you are smearing.
Quote micatala:
My main point continues to be that it is not appropriate to smear an entire group of people for crimes that are committed by only a few people. The only time I could see this being appropriate is if the entire group identity was tied up in or included particular 'criminal acts.'
AlAyeti:
Humanism IS an religion. Study its history.
This is both debatable and irrelevant. Atheism is not the same as humanism. In addition, humanism does not include the promotion or justification of criminal or genocidal acts as part of its doctrine. Therefore, as with Christianity, we should not unfairly smear all humanists for the crimes of a few.
We ESPECIALLY should not smear a whole group for the crimes committed by a few people WHO ARE NOT EVEN A PART OF THE GROUP.
(Excuse my shouting.
).
ALAyeti wrote:In history, where Atheism has gone, millions and millions have been slaughterd. That is following the evidence.
Quote micatala:
In both cases, you have a large group of people (well, much, much larger in the case of Christianity) that are very diverse in their beliefs, outlooks, and actions, even though there is some commonality of belief (or non-belief) as well.
China, Russia, N. Korea, Cuba, SE Asian communist countries, ALL Athiest. Certainly what would qualify as a VERY large group of people. Billion-plus I'm getting on my calculator.
Again, irrelevant. How many of these billions of people are committing atrocities? My guess would be almost none. IN fact, many of them are arguably the victims of their regimes, which are either downright oppressive, or in some cases at least very restricitive or unsupportive of the needs of the people they rule.
How many of these people are actually atheist, or have adopted atheism of their own free will? You need to put away your calculator and learn how to stop over-generalizing and mislabeling.
Quote micatala:
In neither case does the 'group identify' have anything to do per se with the atrocities or crimes that have been cited in an attempt to smear the groups.
AL Ayeti:
I'm feeling pretty comfortable in front of a healthy minded jury.
With all due respect, given the over-generalizations and logical problems in your statements, I think you are deceiving yourself.
Quote micatala:
The vast majority of atheists are peaceful, law-abiding citizens, just as is the case with Christians.
AL:
I agree with you. But, Atheists en mases continue to perpetuate the myth of Christian atrocities without any reference to other peoples that have killed their victims in millions and millions. I just point out facts. Anyone can see from my "judgmental" perspective, that neither Christians that kill . . . or Muslims, Atheists, Secualrists (or anyone else), that continue to murder to this day, get off my hook.
Agreed. Some atheists do smear Christianity without looking at the actual reasons particular atrocities were committed.
The problem is you don't distinguish between the 'facts' and your own misguided assignment of responsibility to whole groups of people who are in no way responsible for the acts you lay at their feet. Yes, it is proper to hold those who perform evil actions responsible for those actions. We are all agreed on this, I think. THe problem with both bernee's cited list and your accusations is that you then use these examples to smear whole groups of people who do not share in the responsibility for the evils committed.
You rightly point out that there is no Christian doctrine that justifies the evils cited, but then you ignore that the same is true for the other groups you cite. In the case of atheists, there is not even any 'doctrine' as such to be considered.
You also seem to ignore any other contributing factors to the atrocities that are or have been committed.
WHy did Russia have a communist revolution? Could it be because of the oppressive conditions that existed for many people under the Czar?
What do we have Muslim extremists? Could it be because European colonialists divided up their lands with no consideration for the people living in them, and exploited these people and their lands for their own economic and political gain for decades upon decades?
Why does Iran support terrorism? Could it be because we overthrew their democratically elected leader, Mossadeq', in the 1950's and installed the Shah, who subsequently implemented a brutal and inhumane dictatorship?
You are not looking at all the evidence or facts. You are only looking at narrowly selected facts which you feel support your accusations and assertions, and you ignore evidence to the contrary. You also apply these facts to situations and people that are not relevant to the facts themselves.
If I seem like I am constantly opposing you, it is because of these problems, not because you are a Christian or because you have conservative views. I don't even disagree with all of your views.
