Baptist Church Excludes Democrats

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perfessor
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Baptist Church Excludes Democrats

Post #1

Post by perfessor »

http://www.wlos.com/

I don't get it. Didn't Jesus ply his trade among tax collectors, prostitutes, and other "sinners"?
East Waynesville Baptist asked nine members to leave. Now 40 more have left the church in protest. Former members say Pastor Chan Chandler gave them the ultimatum, saying if they didn't support George Bush, they should resign or repent. The minister declined an interview with News 13. But he did say "the actions were not politically motivated." There are questions about whether the bi-laws were followed when the members were thrown out.
So my question for debate: Should the East Waynesville Baptist Church lose its tax-exempt status?

I say they should, since the pastor has turned the church into an arm of the Republican party.
"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist."

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micatala
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Post #401

Post by micatala »

AlAyeti wrote:. . . And, compare. Let the scales of justice weigh the worth of ideologies that promote killing of innocent people. Russia. China, Cuba, Cambodia, N. Korea et al, the ACLU and Roe vs. Wade!

Christianty has no such teachings. Judge those that violate the teachings of Christ two ways. Societal laws or the Gospels. I OK with either. This puts a lot of non-godians where they belong.
Agreed. Christianity has no teachings to promote or justify people performing criminal or genocidal atrocities.

NEITHER DOES ATHEISM!!!!!!!!!!!

Therefore, let us set aside this silly 'football match' as bernee has put it.
No problem. And you see the worlds poor and starving are being fed by Christians. As of right this moment.
Again, agreed. However, Muslims also have a doctrine of helping the poor and starving, and many Muslims follow it religiously.
Al wrote:The KKK is an Aryan religious movement. It can be shown by evidence to not be following the Gospels.
Agreed, now be fair and apply the same logic to the groups you are smearing.
Quote micatala:
My main point continues to be that it is not appropriate to smear an entire group of people for crimes that are committed by only a few people. The only time I could see this being appropriate is if the entire group identity was tied up in or included particular 'criminal acts.'
AlAyeti:
Humanism IS an religion. Study its history.
This is both debatable and irrelevant. Atheism is not the same as humanism. In addition, humanism does not include the promotion or justification of criminal or genocidal acts as part of its doctrine. Therefore, as with Christianity, we should not unfairly smear all humanists for the crimes of a few.

We ESPECIALLY should not smear a whole group for the crimes committed by a few people WHO ARE NOT EVEN A PART OF THE GROUP.
(Excuse my shouting. :blink: ).



ALAyeti wrote:In history, where Atheism has gone, millions and millions have been slaughterd. That is following the evidence.
Quote micatala:
In both cases, you have a large group of people (well, much, much larger in the case of Christianity) that are very diverse in their beliefs, outlooks, and actions, even though there is some commonality of belief (or non-belief) as well.

China, Russia, N. Korea, Cuba, SE Asian communist countries, ALL Athiest. Certainly what would qualify as a VERY large group of people. Billion-plus I'm getting on my calculator.
Again, irrelevant. How many of these billions of people are committing atrocities? My guess would be almost none. IN fact, many of them are arguably the victims of their regimes, which are either downright oppressive, or in some cases at least very restricitive or unsupportive of the needs of the people they rule.

How many of these people are actually atheist, or have adopted atheism of their own free will? You need to put away your calculator and learn how to stop over-generalizing and mislabeling.
Quote micatala:
In neither case does the 'group identify' have anything to do per se with the atrocities or crimes that have been cited in an attempt to smear the groups.
AL Ayeti:
I'm feeling pretty comfortable in front of a healthy minded jury.
With all due respect, given the over-generalizations and logical problems in your statements, I think you are deceiving yourself.
Quote micatala:
The vast majority of atheists are peaceful, law-abiding citizens, just as is the case with Christians.


AL:
I agree with you. But, Atheists en mases continue to perpetuate the myth of Christian atrocities without any reference to other peoples that have killed their victims in millions and millions. I just point out facts. Anyone can see from my "judgmental" perspective, that neither Christians that kill . . . or Muslims, Atheists, Secualrists (or anyone else), that continue to murder to this day, get off my hook.
Agreed. Some atheists do smear Christianity without looking at the actual reasons particular atrocities were committed.

The problem is you don't distinguish between the 'facts' and your own misguided assignment of responsibility to whole groups of people who are in no way responsible for the acts you lay at their feet. Yes, it is proper to hold those who perform evil actions responsible for those actions. We are all agreed on this, I think. THe problem with both bernee's cited list and your accusations is that you then use these examples to smear whole groups of people who do not share in the responsibility for the evils committed.

You rightly point out that there is no Christian doctrine that justifies the evils cited, but then you ignore that the same is true for the other groups you cite. In the case of atheists, there is not even any 'doctrine' as such to be considered.

You also seem to ignore any other contributing factors to the atrocities that are or have been committed.

WHy did Russia have a communist revolution? Could it be because of the oppressive conditions that existed for many people under the Czar?

What do we have Muslim extremists? Could it be because European colonialists divided up their lands with no consideration for the people living in them, and exploited these people and their lands for their own economic and political gain for decades upon decades?

Why does Iran support terrorism? Could it be because we overthrew their democratically elected leader, Mossadeq', in the 1950's and installed the Shah, who subsequently implemented a brutal and inhumane dictatorship?

You are not looking at all the evidence or facts. You are only looking at narrowly selected facts which you feel support your accusations and assertions, and you ignore evidence to the contrary. You also apply these facts to situations and people that are not relevant to the facts themselves.

If I seem like I am constantly opposing you, it is because of these problems, not because you are a Christian or because you have conservative views. I don't even disagree with all of your views.

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Post #402

Post by AlAyeti »

You are not looking at all the evidence or facts. You are only looking at narrowly selected facts which you feel support your accusations and assertions, and you ignore evidence to the contrary. You also apply these facts to situations and people that are not relevant to the facts themselves.
No I am not. I am stopping them right where atheists and other anti-Christians try to stop Christians. Pushing back is totally fair.

(It is pitiful to present "Then where did God come from?" When the person saying it refuses to beleive in a god. Why not just go bumbly down the road of life living until the last breath and the beginning of the decay process? Why do Atheists care anyway? I mena about anything? They are just smart apes aren't they? That is their beliefs back at them and not belittling. I've been to a zoo. No great debates from Mr or Mrs Gorilla.

What about the Crusades? I stop the insanity right there and interject what about Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, Lenin et., etc.. Cognitive dissonance seems to work both ways.

Atheism? 0 x 1 =

Equals what?

That is the same question as the origin of God, but with mathematical proof. Please excuse me if I see atheism in the same light as ignorance as they do of us myth believers.

And when they cannot make me get all fussy, what do I get? "You're being mean."

Two and a half million people killed by Christians compared to hundreds of millions killed by atheists and Muslims. Both are mean but one is far more mean.

They sling questioning, I sling questioning. Why am I the intolreant one? Why do we kid ourselves that Bernee just wants to ask questions? I wasn't born yesterday.

I was heading to a college newspaper to debate FEMA not paying back Christian Churches. If these Americans that helped people within the walls of their Churches DID NO CHURCHIN', then it is the height of discrimination to not pay them back financially. If, they sought Christian converts, then, the lunch and clothes are on the Church. But, it seems that after reading my points, the subject was changed. I don't mind the day off, but I minded the intolerance meted out to Christians.

The intolrant ones melt away when you shine their skeptics lamp on their nature.
If I seem like I am constantly opposing you, it is because of these problems, not because you are a Christian or because you have conservative views. I don't even disagree with all of your views
I don't mind being put on probation all that much. I have a hard time being nice to people that I know are intolerant and lie about being tolerant. And I get huffy and insulting. But, I wish the fairness applied to them as well. I don't seek martyrdom and I don't turn the other cheek often.

The problem is totalitarianism of non and anti-Christians. Skeptics are the best thing for the Church. But the little school-yard bully within each atheist thinks you have to give them your lunch money forever on, if you agree with them on anything.

Bullies cry as loud as their little victims once you push them down. I have debatingchristianty.com and many radio conversations to prove that.

Comparing atrocities is fair play. Everytime the Crusades is brought up or everytime someone calls Islam the religion of peace, or mentions the fine secular minds of the past. In the light of truth and historical facts, Christianty shines as the greatest example of goodness the world has seen to date. And, viewing what secualrism and Islam has done to the family and children, Christ will indeed reign forever.

Just like the Bible says.

It is my right to defend that position.

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Post #403

Post by The Persnickety Platypus »

Pushing back is totally fair.
Hebrews 10:30
"I alone have the right to take revenge."

Romans 12:17
"Don't pay people back with evil for the evil they do to you."
I don't seek martyrdom and I don't turn the other cheek often.
Matthew 5:39
"But I tell you not to oppose an evil person. If someone slaps you on your right cheek, turn your other cheek to him as well."
Just like the Bible says.
Indeed.





I think your comparison of atrocities will only be fair when you acknowledge the fact that many Christians have likewise wrought insufferable amounts of evil upon society. But you seem to be in denial of that.

The exact number of deaths attributed to both sides is nothing but a petty detail as far as I am concerned. The only thing we need take note of is that BOTH sides are condemnable by common moral standards.

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Post #404

Post by bernee51 »

AlAyeti wrote: The day when Christians are not shot to death by Muslims and Hindus, imprisoned in China, and given the right of free exchange of ideas, would see a more peaceful day dawn for in Islamic, Hindu and Communists (atheists) countries.

Not too much Christian Jihad going on in the Bible Belt.
Your comment outlines my point exactly - you are a consumate and addicted label-maker.

The world will never have peace as long as your ilk are in power.
AlAyeti wrote: I agree, the barbarism of the Arabs continues to this day as accurately as described (as usual) in the Bible.
Did the bible describe the barbarity and genocide of 'christian' colonisers of the America's?

You show yourself to be a racist as well as a homophobe.

AlAyeti wrote: I'm more than willing to get out that scales of justice to measure your assertion.
Your scales are not balanced Al. They have the weight of your beliefs on one end.
AlAyeti wrote: What harm do the Ten Commandments actually do?
To my mind - none. it is what some people do in what they believe is in the name of them that is harmful.
AlAyeti wrote: I thought I spelled it our rather elementary. Why does others believing in something that doesn't exist bother Atheists?
Their belief does not bother me at all Al. They can believe in whatever fairy tale they wish. I just reserve the right to call it a fairy tale if i wish. If they wanna listen Ok - if they don't - I couldn't give a rat's.
AlAyeti wrote: The rule of law is clearly derived by Judeo-Christian concepts.
And the Judeo-Christian concepts are derived from...?
AlAyeti wrote: What ever happened to Democracy? In America.
Then why do you spend millions in lives and dollars trying to enforce it on the rest of the world.

Iraq - democracy at the point of a gun.
AlAyeti wrote: You have a calculator handy I'm assuming?
The worth of your arguments is in no need of a calculator.
AlAyeti wrote: You "blame Christians" in the sentence below.
AlAyeti wrote:
Even you have observed the poor being fed in India by peaceful UNARMED missionaries.

And I have seen the harm done.
No - I blame the ideology - the label-makers such as yourself.
AlAyeti wrote: I'm confident that the Dalit will be raised to first class citizens in the Christian community. Please enlighten the audience to their status within good ol' Hinduism. I'm thinking your direct empiricism will be valuable.
I agree - Hinduism has not been kind to 'the underclasses' - but that mindset has a long history - not only in India. 'Christian' slavers come to mind.

That said - I take it you are aware of the Hundu Government's 'affirmative action' policies re. the 'underclass' Guaranteed palces in educationa nd government.

In general, as far as pluralist tolerant nations go - India leaves many western nations - including our own - floundering as wannabes.
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"

William James quoting Dr. Hodgson

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Post #405

Post by McCulloch »

AlAyeti wrote:What harm do the Ten Commandments actually do?
bernee51 wrote:To my mind - none. it is what some people do in what they believe is in the name of them that is harmful.
Bernee, I have to disagree with you.
Exodus 20 wrote:You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me, and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
The foundation of Judeo-Christian religious intolerance. There is only one God; other gods are false and evil; idols should be destroyed.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Literalists

Post #406

Post by melikio »

The foundation of Judeo-Christian religious intolerance. There is only one God; other gods are false and evil; idols should be destroyed.
Not really.

I've found that most people who are very "difficult" (must have their way, always "right", believe they know "more" than most others...etc.), are the WORST with ANY philosophical or religious meme. People like that (religious or not) are the source of intolerance in general. I've met Atheists and Christians BOTH, who were know-it-all a-holes. It had a LOT MORE to do with their perosnalities than their philosophical or religious views.

Some people are as happy with things being "exclusive" as "inclusive"; in these modern times, they tend to be Conservative and Liberal (respectively).

And the realists seem to be stuck somewhere near the "middle". Those who realize and understand that they don't know EVERYTHING, or have absolute automony over anything, are typically "moderators".

I don't see the reasoning behind making Christianity into something so "exclusive", that it runs COUNTER to the very things Jesus' life promoted.

I think/believe that Jesus gave people an answer to authoritarian religiosity, that those with MASSIVE religious egos simply cannot or will not abide.

-Mel-
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-

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Re: Literalists

Post #407

Post by McCulloch »

Mel,

You are absolutely correct except for one thing. We were discussing the ten commandments. AlAyeti asked, "What harm do the Ten Commandments actually do?" which to my mind is a question that can only be asked by someone who is faithful or someone who has not very familiar with them. The first and second commandments, in my view are the foundation of Judeo-Christian religious intolerance and properly belong to those who would impose their particular religion on the rest of us by placing their commandments on public monuments. Can a Hindu or Atheist feel that unbiased fair justice will be meted out in a court where the very walls have inscribed in them the assertion that their belief in god, gods or no god, is to be condemned?
melikio wrote:I don't see the reasoning behind making Christianity into something so "exclusive", that it runs COUNTER to the very things Jesus' life promoted.


Didn't Jesus say that no one comes to the Father except through him? Christian theology may be inclusive, compared to other religions in existence when it came to be, in relation to social status, race, ethnicity and gender. But I cannot see where Jesus and his apostles teach religious toleration.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Post #408

Post by AlAyeti »

I'm somehow not shaking in my sandals.
AlAyeti wrote:

The day when Christians are not shot to death by Muslims and Hindus, imprisoned in China, and given the right of free exchange of ideas, would see a more peaceful day dawn for in Islamic, Hindu and Communists (atheists) countries.

Not too much Christian Jihad going on in the Bible Belt.

Your comment outlines my point exactly - you are a consumate and addicted label-maker.

The world will never have peace as long as your ilk are in power.


Those that hold the freedom of democracy or the missionaries feeding the worlds poor? My label on Jihad comes out of their mouths of Muslims. I'd prefer to listen to the Beatitudes. But, in Muslim countries just being a Christian will get you shot.
AlAyeti wrote:

I agree, the barbarism of the Arabs continues to this day as accurately as described (as usual) in the Bible.

Did the bible describe the barbarity and genocide of 'christian' colonisers of the America's?

You show yourself to be a racist as well as a homophobe.
Though this is another personal attack that you seem to get away with with no accountability, I would like you to create another thread and prove your statements. I am not afriad of you in the slightest.
AlAyeti wrote:

I'm more than willing to get out that scales of justice to measure your assertion.

Your scales are not balanced Al. They have the weight of your beliefs on one end.
2 and a half million people killed by Christians violating the teachings of Christ versus hundreds of millions killed by atheists and others well-defined. The scale is indeed not equal. My beliefs are open to the public.
AlAyeti wrote:

What harm do the Ten Commandments actually do?

To my mind - none. it is what some people do in what they believe is in the name of them that is harmful.
I agree. But ignoring them has wrought untold numbers to experience the horror of violating God's laws.
AlAyeti wrote:

I thought I spelled it our rather elementary. Why does others believing in something that doesn't exist bother Atheists?

Their belief does not bother me at all Al. They can believe in whatever fairy tale they wish. I just reserve the right to call it a fairy tale if i wish. If they wanna listen Ok - if they don't - I couldn't give a rat's.
I admire your freedom of speech. Please allow me the same right. My fellow Americans sponsored this idea over the entire free earth. While people that CAN escape from oppresive countires flee to America as first choice. Of course those that want sex with minors and the age of sexual consent lowered, go to Canada or Europe.
AlAyeti wrote:

The rule of law is clearly derived by Judeo-Christian concepts.

And the Judeo-Christian concepts are derived from...?
The Living God. Yeah yeah, I know "where did he come from." You go to the end of all universes and turn lef- - uh, I mean . . right.
AlAyeti wrote:

What ever happened to Democracy? In America.

Then why do you spend millions in lives and dollars trying to enforce it on the rest of the world.

Iraq - democracy at the point of a gun.
As opposed to Saddam's poisoned gas? (I can't believe that opening was supplied by you.) I believe we have many diverse Iraqi people fighting with us. Saddam had his rapists and genociders only.
AlAyeti wrote:

You have a calculator handy I'm assuming?

The worth of your arguments is in no need of a calculator.


I have proven the worth of atheism in history. It is very heavy indeed. Not like gold but certainly like the lead in Russian and Chinese and Cambodian guns.

AlAyeti wrote:

You "blame Christians" in the sentence below.
Quote:
AlAyeti wrote:
Even you have observed the poor being fed in India by peaceful UNARMED missionaries.

And I have seen the harm done.

No - I blame the ideology - the label-makers such as yourself.
It was anti-Christians that invented the word "Christian" and use it the way "freethinkers" use it today. Look it up. The Bible, as usual, is honest about history.
AlAyeti wrote:

I'm confident that the Dalit will be raised to first class citizens in the Christian community. Please enlighten the audience to their status within good ol' Hinduism. I'm thinking your direct empiricism will be valuable.

I agree - Hinduism has not been kind to 'the underclasses' - but that mindset has a long history - not only in India. 'Christian' slavers come to mind.
Are we talking about the Christian slavers that bought those slaves from the Muslims that originally enslaved them? Or, are we talking about the Christian political movement called Abolition? Look up the song Amazing Grace and see "what kind" of man wrote this most endearing Christian hymn.
That said - I take it you are aware of the Hundu Government's 'affirmative action' policies re. the 'underclass' Guaranteed palces in educationa nd government.
I am very aware of the Caste system. Try again Bernee.
In general, as far as pluralist tolerant nations go - India leaves many western nations - including our own - floundering as wannabes.
Hindus and Muslims are doing very little murdering and bombing of each other in America Bernee. Yet, in India the smoke is still clearing.


It's good to have this time together.

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Post #409

Post by AlAyeti »

P-P,

God Bless you for your Godly advice. But, these boards are not the place for proseletyzing. I am neither a Pastor nor Evangelist. I throw stones like a shepard protecting the flock.
Quote:
Pushing back is totally fair.

Hebrews 10:30
"I alone have the right to take revenge."
I am not speaking for God. I am countering arguments.
Romans 12:17
"Don't pay people back with evil for the evil they do to you."


I always urge repentance to believers and urge non-believers to look into the Bible for themselves. Anti-Christians . . .? Well . . . I'll try to work on your advice. It's just hard. Bullies are so fun to make cry.
Quote:
I don't seek martyrdom and I don't turn the other cheek often.

Matthew 5:39
"But I tell you not to oppose an evil person. If someone slaps you on your right cheek, turn your other cheek to him as well."
Quote:
Just like the Bible says.

Indeed.


No one is forcing me to deny Christ nor have I ever denied Him. That would entail being silent when being attacked for my beliefs.

I think your comparison of atrocities will only be fair when you acknowledge the fact that many Christians have likewise wrought insufferable amounts of evil upon society. But you seem to be in denial of that.
I have judged everyone with the same scale. I hold everyone accountable for breaking the law.
The exact number of deaths attributed to both sides is nothing but a petty detail as far as I am concerned.


But NOT as far as I'm concerned. Only Christians have apologized. I see nothing from Humanist orgs and the World will wait a long time for Islam to stop the carnage.
The only thing we need take note of is that BOTH sides are condemnable by common moral standards.
What morals from people with no god or one that writes to kill infidels?

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Post #410

Post by bernee51 »

McCulloch wrote:
AlAyeti wrote:What harm do the Ten Commandments actually do?
bernee51 wrote:To my mind - none. it is what some people do in what they believe is in the name of them that is harmful.
Bernee, I have to disagree with you.
Exodus 20 wrote:You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me, and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
The foundation of Judeo-Christian religious intolerance. There is only one God; other gods are false and evil; idols should be destroyed.
Thanks for pointing that out McC...

Thought the major harm still comes from those that wish to force such intolerances on the world at large.
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"

William James quoting Dr. Hodgson

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

Nisargadatta Maharaj

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