Liberal Christians only believe some "fundamentalism?

[AlAyeti]

There are now political Christians wanting to "re-claim" Christianity from whatever the "Right" is, or has done to it. Claiming that their way of Christianity is more like what Jesus would want.

But many of these Liberal positions hold to funadamentalism on the poor, the needy and anti-war and violence, but oppose Biblical truth on many other issues.

Why do Liberal Christians deny the truths of the New Testament on marriage and children as defined by Jesus himself?

Liberals will teach about condom usage but decry the Biblical truth about abstaining from sex until marriage as something ignorant or intolerant?

Why are not Liberal Christians funding missionaries to go to Muslim and other countries to spread the Gospel exactly the way Jesus described and exactly the way it is presented in the Gospels?

How can Liberal Christians support a womans right to kill her unborn child and encourage a woman to go and do it, while at the same time, denying the same rights of choice on the matter be given equal recognition to the father of the child?

How and why can Liberal Christians call themselves Christians while only preaching and teaching some immutable Christian positions and not all?

[AlAyeti]

Mel,

Don't just try to insult me, please feel free to use the textual soures I use to make my point valid.

I read the Tanakh often. I have several different printings of the Jewish Publication Society's printing of the Bible used in Jewish Synagouges. I do this to get a proper perspective.

How is this not the educated thing to do? Gaining knowledge is usually seen as a good thing.

You should read a New Testament. You can even start anywhere within one.

Again, my side of the debate can be challenged by using the sources I site, can't they?

I am confident, that you will observe that it will not support the Liberalizing of same-sex marriage, drug use, euthanasia, "easy divorce," and what the Israelites would call a "Sodomite" leading the congregation.

I'm confident that I have just used accurate references.

All things Liberals advocate, even, preaching those teachings inside their Churches. Where, I found (as a Christian) they were embracing hypocrisy so not in keeping with either the Tanakh or New Testament, that I do not go in those kinds of Churches.

You are welcomed to use my sources to disprove me. I welcome the enlightenment. Though I am confident about the validity of my position, can stand the testing of them.

[Cathar1950]

that story is in two places about Sodomites, only it is Benjamenites. The Act were used to dominate subjected people not sexual in nature. I hear that republican right wing people do it but they think they are not gay if they are the doer and not the doee. Just because Paul says it does not make something true. Your truth is very subjective as is your interpretations. You might want to keep that in mind with a little humility.
Only using your sources is kind of the "easy road".

[melikio]

Mel,

Don't just try to insult me, please feel free to use the textual soures I use to make my point valid.

I read the Tanakh often. I have several different printings of the Jewish Publication Society's printing of the Bible used in Jewish Synagouges. I do this to get a proper perspective.

How is this not the educated thing to do? Gaining knowledge is usually seen as a good thing.

You should read a New Testament. You can even start anywhere within one.

Again, my side of the debate can be challenged by using the sources I site, can't they?

I am confident, that you will observe that it will not support the Liberalizing of same-sex marriage, drug use, euthanasia, "easy divorce," and what the Israelites would call a "Sodomite" leading the congregation.

I'm confident that I have just used accurate references.

All things Liberals advocate, even, preaching those teachings inside their Churches. Where, I found (as a Christian) they were embracing hypocrisy so not in keeping with either the Tanakh or New Testament, that I do not go in those kinds of Churches.

You are welcomed to use my sources to disprove me. I welcome the enlightenment. Though I am confident about the validity of my position, can stand the testing of them.

Al, pay attention please.

Those "quotes" you submitted, are not of things I have said.

You were NOT responding to me.

-Mel-

[melikio]

I'm confident that I have just used accurate references.

We can ALL have "sources", Al.

There is a big difference between certitude based primarily in faith, and views of reality made through education and experience. And I am fairly certain myself, that God understands how reality integrates with our hearts and minds. YOU don't get to define that; no matter how RIGHT you think/believe you are. That's God's.

Most Christians should understand that what they "believe", makes what they believe valid (according to God's will), in a spiritual way, but not necessarily in other ways. That is, just as my faith in God CANNOT be directly translated to an unbeliever, so it goes with your views of homosexuality based upon anything that requires (your view of) "faith".

As soon as you "quote" the Bible to me (and many others), the issue of "faith" is literally INJECTED into the equation. And where you are dealing with the soul of anyone other than YOURSELF, then God's providence will take precedence over what YOU and like-minded believers may "think". In other words, YOU and YOURS do not control reality in any absolute fashion, God does. (Although I think I'm "right", it is still a statement of "faith".)

Not even all Christians believe as YOU do. Somehow, you are "right"; who but God Himself, could ever argue with you?

LOL. It is impossible (except by a miracle or series of them), to change a person's mind according to what we THINK is "right" or "true". I've seen and experienced what I'm saying here, from racism to social status. People believe what they are apt to believe, or desire to believe.

It's not YOUR JOB, to enforce "truth" for God except in your own heart and mind. Because I'll tell you what I know:

If you approached me with the anti-gay attitude I'm picking up from your posts, then you will have as much time with me as it takes for me to distance myself from you. Yes, I will tuck my tail and run...not because I'm afraid of people with your view, but because there is no guarantee what a direct conflict between us will lead to; the "foot-dusting" works BOTH WAYS.

Here, in the arena of words, a wider range of ideas and views can be explored, that is usually not true of one-on-one encounters. It's kind of sad, but that is what I've found in reality. I know people who are defintely "Christians", who would quickly disagree with you. Not as much because of what you say, but because of the perception of the kind of person you might be. No one really wants to deal with that, unless they are in agreement with the perceptions your words generate.

As I have previously implied, I agree that some or many "Christians" will see homosexuality as wrong and/or sinful. But you, on the other hand, CANNOT seem to grasp the reality that some of those same "Christians" could/would chastise YOU, for the effect of the kinds of things you say. And I really don't have any evidence of you wanting to show the compassion to soften the BLOWS to others you would inflict (morally, socially, mentally and spiritually); it's as IF you yourself do NOT deserve the same (but you do, by God's standard). As I implied before, the worst ways homosexuals and others can be hurt, are not necessarily LIMITED to what can be defined as physical. It's NOT YOUR JOB (or anyone's) to PUNISH homosexual people. Perhaps, there is much ore to the FACT that you refuse to separate "homosexuals" and "pedofiles". And how right would it be for me to associate ALL "HETEROSEXUALS" with "pedophilia". By using the same logic and effect your comments tend to exude, anyone could reach the same (fallable) conclusion you appear to rest upon.

I'm not perfect, but I am generally patient and easy-going; I've learned that from receiving a couple of decades of feedback as a person. I DO NOT PUSH (nor am I a push-over). You don't seem to accept that there are perceptions and aspects of "morality", which are God's providence to attend and define for individual human beings. And that is exactly where I (and many others) will challenge you.

If you weren't basically encouraging or advocating for the further oppression of homosexual people (if indirectly), then I would just accept that you hold the beliefs you do. But as an American, who is not a religious absolutist, I think the religious views of people can be challenged (even if they are my own religious beliefs). In fact, I have absolute FAITH, that God's will is immutable, even if my personal understanding of it is not.

People who claim to know God's will, should accept that not everyone they wish would know the SAME, shall. IF you believe someone is lost AL, then at some point you have to accept that; not torture them socially, morally, religiously...etc., in an attempt to get them to see things YOUR WAY (even if you firmly believe you are "right").

You see, (real) LOVE leaves room for people to decide something other than what YOU (and those who think the way you do for whatever reason/s) might believe. IF this were not generally true, then Jesus would have instructed ALL FOLLOWERS to force unbelievers in any way they could, to comply and/or submit to His teachings.

So, right or wrong Al, there IS a point where our individual autonomy and wills are meaningless. And I don't believe in the God that destroys every person who doesn't fit the absolute pictures of morality some Christians or other religious people try to paint. Even moreso, I believe that God is ACTIVE, and according to His PROVIDENCE and will, making the changes INSIDE of all human beings that suit Him. Yeah, all of that is based upon FAITH, Al... and I'm not going to expect anyone else to embrace it...although I believe I'm close enough to being "right". I DO UNDERSTAND, that you see things very differently, and accept that you are only speaking from that which YOU know and understand.

Even so, I would almost be willing to place a BET, upon the likelihood that God would "adjust" even your immutable perceptions of THE truth. At that point, you'll need to rely on grace, just like everyone else who THINKS they are "right".

-Mel-

[AlAyeti]

that story is in two places about Sodomites, only it is Benjamenites. The Act were used to dominate subjected people not sexual in nature. I hear that republican right wing people do it but they think they are not gay if they are the doer and not the doee. Just because Paul says it does not make something true. Your truth is very subjective as is your interpretations. You might want to keep that in mind with a little humility.
Only using your sources is kind of the "easy road".

Please define your post. Is it OK to anally rape a person? I don't care what political party you use.or, what kind of sex perpetrated during a rape. Please justify the act.

The Benjaminaites didn't want to search out the rapists and murderers of a woman in a town mentioned in the final paragraphs in Judges.

I'm trying to make sense of you meandering.

Please help out.

[AlAyeti]

Here I go here I go here I go again . . .

Quote:
I'm confident that I have just used accurate references.

We can ALL have "sources", Al.

And mine come from outside my sex life.

There is a big difference between certitude based primarily in faith, and views of reality made through education and experience. And I am fairly certain myself, that God understands how reality integrates with our hearts and minds. YOU don't get to define that; no matter how RIGHT you think/believe you are. That's God's.

So we get to pit Doctorate pros against each other. That isn't working. What you are describing is what the homosexual community should embrace. Start its own Churches rather than to force others to submit.

Most Christians should understand that what they "believe", makes what they believe valid (according to God's will), in a spiritual way, but not necessarily in other ways. That is, just as my faith in God CANNOT be directly translated to an unbeliever, so it goes with your views of homosexuality based upon anything that requires (your view of) "faith".

I have consistently left faith to those that can look at their body in the mirror and violate its design.

As soon as you "quote" the Bible to me (and many others), the issue of "faith" is literally INJECTED into the equation.

I ONLY use the Bible to prove that Liberal Christianity has left the building. I use science to step away from ever being considered a bigot on sexuality.

And where you are dealing with the soul of anyone other than YOURSELF, then God's providence will take precedence over what YOU and like-minded believers may "think". In other words, YOU and YOURS do not control reality in any absolute fashion, God does. (Although I think I'm "right", it is still a statement of "faith".)

I'm sure that is why the homosexual agenda has seen the road to its promised land is through liberal politicians and progressive activist judges. They cannot exist in the light of scripture.

Not even all Christians believe as YOU do. Somehow, you are "right"; who but God Himself, could ever argue with you?

And? When Christians will not agree, that usually follows the founding of a NEW Church denomination. I wish homosexuals would do that instead of destroying what is left of any good Churches.

LOL. It is impossible (except by a miracle or series of them), to change a person's mind according to what we THINK is "right" or "true". I've seen and experienced what I'm saying here, from racism to social status. People believe what they are apt to believe, or desire to believe.

I agree. I never thought that people were right about children being the targets of the homosexual agenda. And now we have "Questioning Youth" and of course all of those "school programs" to guide children into the path of . . .?

It's not YOUR JOB, to enforce "truth" for God except in your own heart and mind. Because I'll tell you what I know:

If you approached me with the anti-gay attitude I'm picking up from your posts, then you will have as much time with me as it takes for me to distance myself from you. Yes, I will tuck my tail and run...not because I'm afraid of people with your view, but because there is no guarantee what a direct conflict between us will lead to; the "foot-dusting" works BOTH WAYS.

I wish you could make that promise for the entire homosexual agenda and its every encroaching intolerance for Christians that believe in the Bible.

Here, in the arena of words, a wider range of ideas and views can be explored, that is usually not true of one-on-one encounters. It's kind of sad, but that is what I've found in reality.

You would be surprised how much I care about people. That is what you would find "in real life." Especially the rights of children to live their lives without being sexualized until they have enjoyed their childhood. Until the homosexual agenda declares children off limits consider my stance always on the other side of the issues.

I know people who are defintely "Christians", who would quickly disagree with you. Not as much because of what you say, but because of the perception of the kind of person you might be. No one really wants to deal with that, unless they are in agreement with the perceptions your words generate.

Protect children from a sexual agenda and we'd be just fine.

As I have previously implied, I agree that some or many "Christians" will see homosexuality as wrong and/or sinful. But you, on the other hand, CANNOT seem to grasp the reality that some of those same "Christians" could/would chastise YOU, for the effect of the kinds of things you say.

I am shedding no tears. I present very valid positions from historical and scientific avenues. If the truth hurts someone it certainly isn't me. Unfortunately, we Christians are not allowed to talk to those "Questioning Youth" by the laws put into place by supporters of the homosexual agenda.

I would be more than glad to hear what your Christians have to say about that!

And I really don't have any evidence of you wanting to show the compassion to soften the BLOWS to others you would inflict (morally, socially, mentally and spiritually); it's as IF you yourself do NOT deserve the same (but you do, by God's standard).

Let's just stay on the path of facts and reason. "I" am not advocating teaching children to endure a sexualization of their youth.

As I implied before, the worst ways homosexuals and others can be hurt, are not necessarily LIMITED to what can be defined as physical. It's NOT YOUR JOB (or anyone's) to PUNISH homosexual people.

This crosses the line to a personal attack. I have consistently presented that adults can do what they want in the privacy of their own homes or, even their communities.

Once it becomes a matter of society than it is open to every opinion. We Christians endure this every day. I thought this was all about human rights!

Perhaps, there is much ore to the FACT that you refuse to separate "homosexuals" and "pedofiles".

I try to separate my views from heretical Christianity. Homosexuals need to have children's rights to not have to be subjected to sexual behavior unless it is in the confines of anatomy and physiology lessons. Otherwise, every point of view should have "EQUAL" say on the matter. Which, of course Christians do not. Hmm, how convenient! This is a "Christian nation" but Christians have to shut up about what happens to their children in PUBLIC schools.

And how right would it be for me to associate ALL "HETEROSEXUALS" with "pedophilia". By using the same logic and effect your comments tend to exude, anyone could reach the same (fallable) conclusion you appear to rest upon.

Pederasty and homosexuality are connected. It is a fact of history. Past and present. CNN did an expose on this just a few years back. Men from all over the world descended on the Iron bloc countries to "buy" boys.

That stigma has to be wiped away by the homosexual agenda of human rights NOT any other. The facts speak for themselves. "WHAT" is sold in the sex slave trade. CHILDREN.

That is my only position.

I'm not perfect, but I am generally patient and easy-going; I've learned that from receiving decade of feedback as a person. I DO NOT PUSH, nor am I a push-over. You don't seem to accept that there are perceptions and aspects of "morality", which are God's providence to attend. And that is exactly where I (and many others) will challenge you.

Have I wanted anything less? Please the facts. The facts. I am ready.

If you weren't basically encouraging or advocating for the further oppression of homosexual people (if indirectly), then I would just accept that you hold the beliefs you do.

That is a purposely presented false statement about my position. I view the acts and not the person. I go nowhere near the condition of the soul either. I will report this personal attack if you chose to continue down that path.

But as an American, who is not a religious absolutist, I think the religious views of people can be challenged (even if they are my own religious beliefs).

Now we are in complete agreement. I challenge Liberal Churches as doing what cannot be justified by the very scriptures they supposedly base their beliefs.

In fact, I have absolute FAITH, that God's will is immutable, even if my personal understanding of it is not.

Again my views and yours are in concert. But, I do assert that I can read words and understand them just how they are written. Especially in anatomy, physiology and biology and the Gospels.

People who claim to know God's will, should accept that not everyone they wish would know the SAME, shall.

I started this thread topic only to show that the sexualization of society bears a strikingly similar comparison to Sodom, Greece and Rome. And, it does.

IF you believe someone is lost AL, then at some point you have to accept that; not torture them socially, morally, religiously...etc., in an attempt to get them to see things YOUR WAY (even if you firmly believe you are "right").

This is debatingchristianty.org. I am no where or at anytime proselytizing or preaching. Just presenting one side of a debate.

You see, (real) LOVE leaves room for people to decide something other than what YOU (and those who think the way you do for whatever reason/s) might believe.

Jesus mentions this very thing upon His entry into Jerusalem.

Please refrain from personalizing my positions. I think you are trying the modern-day tactic of prosecuting ME instead of the issues at hand. I have never once condemned you to an eternal hell or whatever. I am an empiricist. What a person "does" can be seen. "Why" a person does what they do is on them.

IF this were not generally true, then Jesus would have instructed ALL FOLLOWERS to force unbelievers in any way they could, to comply and/or submit to His teachings.

So I am to allow the teachings of sexual deviance to children in schools go unchallenged? I think pedophile "Priests" should give everyone a heads up to complete mistrust who or what is teaching and leading our children.

So, right or wrong Al, there IS a point where our individual autonomy and wills are meaningless.

In hell?

And I don't believe in the God that destroys every person who doesn't fit the absolute pictures of morality some Christians or other religious people try to paint.

I don't either. Jesus was amazed at the faith of many. Paul says that there are other people that by their actions obey the law of God. This is just down from where he rails on about unnatural sex acts and those that do them

Even moreso, I believe that God is ACTIVE, and according to His PROVIDENCE and will, making the changes INSIDE of all human beings that suit Him.

My desire is that everyone lives a long an peaceful life. That will give them opportunity to see the truth. But, I want that freedom given to children not be faced with sex acts presented as diversity lifestyle.

Yeah, all of that is based upon FAITH, Al... and I'm not going to expect anyone else to embrace it...although I believe I'm close enough to being "right". I DO UNDERSTAND, that you see things very differently, and accept that you are only speaking from that which YOU know and understand.

I am confident that words have meanings and actions have meanings. I am a skeptic of the homosexual agenda. If someone can be a freethinker on God, how much more appropriate to question sexual deviance and obvious sexual aberrations.

Humans are not Bonobos and shouldn't want to be. But, that is what some enlightened freethinkers present as an intelligent argument on justifying sexual deviant behavior. I do not think this should be taught to children.

Even so, I would almost be willing to place a BET, upon the likelihood that God would "adjust" even your immutable perceptions of THE truth. At that point, you'll need to rely on grace, just like everyone else who THINKS they are "right".

My perception will change when a man (or woman) can eat a hotdog through their eye scocket. Until that time my confidence that anatomy is a good source of logic on what children should be taught on sexuality will not and I'm asserting, can not be changed.

I don't think that the God of the Bible (or the fairy tales preached of evolution), will ever change the imutable fact on sexual matters.

I only need to rely on Grace for my salvation. Which is another immutable fact.

[Cathar1950]

No it is not ok to rape any one in any way anal or not.
Oh, good post Mel!
The story was a recurring theme and the crime was inhospitality and degradation . It is not about Homosexuality.

[AlAyeti]

How did Paul know?

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Very modern day. Even more the stuff that precedes this amazing bit of prediction.

[melikio]

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Al, you fit nowhere on this list? (If not, PROVE IT ABSOLUTELY, or consider showing a bit more "humility" than you do.)

I've seen all of those things apply to the very people who would refer to themselves as being "holy". They judge/condemn, and aren't better by one iota in their hearts.

And I think I'd better address this:
Mel said:

If you weren't basically encouraging or advocating for the further oppression of homosexual people (if indirectly), then I would just accept that you hold the beliefs you do.

Al responded:

That is a purposely presented false statement about my position. I view the acts and not the person. I go nowhere near the condition of the soul either. I will report this personal attack if you chose to continue down that path.

Al, you cannot claim that your views have no effects beyond that which YOU calculate. That is EXACTLY why I consistently mention to you, the effects that your comments can/do have upon human beings. IF I had ZERO FACTS, I would share one insurmountably-important fact with you:

I and other homosexual people are human beings and DO have feelings. Human beings can intuitively sense the EFFECTS of comments directed AT or around them. And I've implied to you MANY MANY times, that I go for the throat or neck of your comments (the effect they have on people), not YOU. The quality of the conversation would be instantly BORING, if that was what I intended to do. I don't enjoy hurting people, but I DO want them to be aware of and compassionate concerning the PAIN and BURDENS others are enduring with as they NAVIGATE through this life; it's called COMMUNICATION.

And I really do apologize if I hurt your feelings; I DO regard feelings. Even so, I can't help but wonder why you would seemingly distance yourself from what others feel, when you lay your heavy dogma upon them. It's interesting for me, reading and responsing to your comments:

It's as if I see a completely DIFFERENT TRUTH in the biblical quotes you present, when I compare it to the overall effect (emotionally and spiritually) of what your posts convey. And that's one reason I really don't quote the Bible much, because that (effect) happens a lot in various fora.

By God's grace, it's like He's given me the defenses to ward off the FIRE/BRIMSTONE type of comments that people so easily propagate and believe to be affective for Christ. I know I'm a sinner; I know I'm gay and I'm not going to lie about what I believe (or not), just to fit into someone's "Christian" categorization.

Again, sorry if you believe/think I'm attacking you, but I'm not. I've seen thousands of posts by Christians who generally believe that God is on THEIR SIDE. He may be, but He is also an advocate for many who are trying or wanting to make their way through life period. He's not as "partial" and "exclusive" as certain Christian groups/interests try to paint Him as being; I have not taken His grace completely for granted (I'm forever grateful). I say this in faith, and it really bothers some people that Jesus could or would come to the level where liberals (less than "perfectly" religious AND conservative) might reside. Well, all I can tell you (I have not tangible proof for you here on the net) is that Jesus has always been here with me, and MANY other "liberals".

And he's not likely waiting around, to see who gets into office or makes it to the Supreme Court; He already knows. But He is watching hearts, and He also knows how INEFFECTIVE certain comments are, which DO NOT reflect the love He gave us FREELY.

You know, I haven't met one real believer, who isn't FULLY aware that they need God's grace from moment-to-moment. I may be gay; and I am a "sinner"...but that (Jesus' love) is where I started, and that is where everything I know which is "Christian" is referenced to. Not politics, or the popular moral-outrage of any given era.

I don't KNOW God's perfect will, and I'm not ashamed to say so...especially after what I've been through as a human being.

-Mel-

[Cathar1950]

That pretty much is what people always say of the enemy no matter what side they are on. They must have had it all back then too. Every one on the other side is always satan. He also thought the kingdom was coming soon(in his life time) and after the gentiles were save all the Jews would be saved too. It always sounds like the end to someone. It maybe for all we know an astroid could hit. Sure sounds like Rome to me. Maybe Paul was just a troubled person. Luther sure was and he identified with what he thought was Paul's thinking. Anti-Jewish and all. Luther was anti-everyone.