Baptist Church Excludes Democrats

[perfessor]

http://www.wlos.com/

I don't get it. Didn't Jesus ply his trade among tax collectors, prostitutes, and other "sinners"?

East Waynesville Baptist asked nine members to leave. Now 40 more have left the church in protest. Former members say Pastor Chan Chandler gave them the ultimatum, saying if they didn't support George Bush, they should resign or repent. The minister declined an interview with News 13. But he did say "the actions were not politically motivated." There are questions about whether the bi-laws were followed when the members were thrown out.

So my question for debate: Should the East Waynesville Baptist Church lose its tax-exempt status?

I say they should, since the pastor has turned the church into an arm of the Republican party.

[AlAyeti]

I defend Christians and Christianty from unfounded statements defining Christianty by non and anti-Christians. I am confident that I do it with sound reasoning. I wish it did not come off as cockiness but it obviously does.

You post was excellent for many reasons . . .

Interesting debate you two. One thing Al. You repeatedly assert, and rightfully so, that atrocities done in the name of Jesus have no foundation in the gospels. Therefore it's not Christians that are doing them.

Not really. I judge their actions in light of what the Gospels say. I would cart them off to jail or not decry their execution for being murderers. But, almost all of the people doing the fighting had never read the Gospels. Anti-Christians always fail to use logic when laying blame on Christians.

You further speak of other faiths like Islam, and go on to others like atheism and "secularism" (whatever that means) and speak of atrocities without attending to them the way you do for Christianity.

Secularist America and Europe have slaughterd many peoples and took their lands. Millions more died in those conquests. Islam literally always has taught that it is OK to kill in the name of allah. Jihad is Jihad and we all know it.

Do you belive that Islam, atheism, and "secularism" have inherent apathy toward murder (et. al.) or that they somehow inherently advocate it?

100% Yes. Secualism and atheism has slaughtered more human beings in just the name of abortion than have ever fought in any wars. Islam cares nothing for the suffering it causes to people that will not "submit" to Islam. (I hope you know that "Islam" means "submit.") Unarmed Christian missionaries died today to bring food and clothing to other people. More than likely killed by Chinese atheists or Muslims. Today!

Not a word of condemnation by anyone except Christian voices.

Also, this whole Christian v.ssecularar thing fails to attend to the reality that one cannot separate Christianity from the economic, political, environmental world from which it was created. Further practicing Christians live, eat, breath, and act in a secular society (here in the U.S.). Christians are necessarily every bit as secular as everyone else. The divide for some comes on "secularism" which is only the advocacy of disabling the government to make any law to establish one a religion over another, or against freedom of religion. That's the extent of "secularism."

I think this is 100% correct. secualrism means "butt out!"

But, if secularists would stop outlawing and silencing Christians, than there would be thousands more Christians added daily in a lot of churches.

So, I'm just wondering how it is we got to the point where Christians are somehow outside the boundaries of society, outside the secular, the profane etc. If that were the case, which it isn't, Christianity would lose touch with the most basic teachings of Jesus.

Christians are traitors. Perversion and nastiness is attempted to be shaken off when a person becomes a follower of Christ. People that want to do sick and sinful things don't like other people to challenge that.

Anyway, the whole, who killed more people bit, is really a mute point.

The h-ll it isn't!

It doesn't matter who killed more because it doesn't change anything.

The h-ll it doesn't!

We can stop abortion, communism and Jihad today. They are still killing endless numbers of humans. Today!

Atrocitieses were done in the name of Christianity, atrocities have also been done in the name of economic and political expansion and power plays, and atrocities have been an entangled mixture of the two.

Only Christians have their noses pushed into the dirt about it. Christians have apologized a million times over. UNARMED Christians are feeding the world's poor as we speak. And they are being killed by Muslim's and atheists today.

One cannot readily separate religion from society, religion from economy, religion from politics. It's embedded in everything we do whether we choose to attend to it or not. All our actions and decisions, beliefs, and faiths are woven from experiences with each other, regardless of the setting.

Then advocate for laws that will protect Christians from Musli atrocities commited today and secular outlawing the free expression of Christianty!!!

We're creating a false reality in trying to define religion, in this case Christianity, against society, or secular society. This simply is not the reality.

Reality proves that it is ONLY Christians being attacked.

What do you all think?

We need a worldwide movement to force secularists, atheists and Muslims to act like Christians towards the wrongs they do to other people!!!

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Here is my main problem with your views. You refuse to become accountable for other Christians dubious deeds, under the belief their brand of Christianity is not linked with yours. But the reality is, all brands of Christians are related from an outsiders viewpoint. Consequently, all Christians are considered responsible for the actions of a few. By neglecting to bring reproach upon reprehensible deeds of years past, one may assume you condone them.

Think of it this way. A select few individuals take part in a conspiracy in an otherwise respectable organization. Do not the innocent members of that organization make a point of criticizing the criminal actions of the other few? If not, the entire organization's reputation is greatly tainted. A small number of people can ruin the credibility of an entire body. You see it all the time. This seems to be exactly what is currently happening to Christianity and Islam alike. The objectionable actions of a small faction (both past and present) hold the entire mass accountable.

Make a point of distancing yourself from these things, don't try to pretend they do not exist.

You seem ready to discount absolutely any criticism of your subscribed religion. You commonly offer rash generalizations depicting every Christian as caring, loving, and charitable. In reality, there are MANY Christians of highly disputable character- even of your own brand. Ignoring these faults is no step towards abolishing them. What are my chances of eliminating a personal defect by pretending it does not exist? Absolutely none.

Please, allow me to dispense of an unequivocal statement to counter your sweeping ones: Many Christians are horrible people. It is Christianity in fact, that influences a number of those people to be horrible to begin with.

Accept this, and you have taken the first step towards its remedy.

Now c'mon. That is not fair. What I do is to show the nonsense of atheists perpetuating the myth that Christianty somehow wrought such terror on the world. In comparison of the hundreds of millions that have been slaughtered by other belief systems, namely atheism and secularism, indeed the shoe is on the other much more bloody foot.

And yet, both feet are bloody. Determining the whose is the bloodiest is irrelevant; a non-issue.

Instead of playing the blame game, let's accept the facts. Athiests commit crimes. Christians commit crimes. They are both wrong. I assume we agree up to this point?

They are utterly absurd because no one can show anywhere in the New Testament, support for what Hitler or any genocidal maniac perpetrated on anyone. You can find scriptural support for killing non-believers in the Koran but the teachings of the Son of God are clear and unmistakeable. In fact, Hitlers scientists measured the skulls and other parts of Jewish people to measure the evolutionary quality of them. That is on film.

From Mein Kampf:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

A speech in 1922:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."


Now, there is signifigant evidence suggesting Hitler did not actually hold these beliefs to heart. However, he used them to justify his anti-jew advocacy. These quotes helped in gaining the country's support, and cannot be negated as a major factor leading to World War Two.

As I stated before, whether he submitted to true Christian fundamentals matters not. He still used the Bible to support his convictions, and consequently, the rest of the organization (us) should make a point of debunking his views so as not to become held accountable for his actions. Many people do blame Christianity for such events.

No they didn't. They literally ignored the text.

For the most part, but not entirely. From what I have seen, they took particular verses (such as the one in Luke) and blew them out proportion. They ignored every other verse that contradicted that belief.

[AlAyeti]

Here is my main problem with your views. You refuse to become accountable for other Christians dubious deeds, under the belief their brand of Christianity is not linked with yours.

Yet not one atheist will accept the carnage totaling in the tens or hundreds of millions by communist atheists and secualrists. Why should I, a Christian that lives by the words of Christ Jesus, believe that those that do not are really Christians? What ever happened to proof and evidence?

But the reality is, all brands of Christians are related from an outsiders viewpoint.

An outsider I'm thinking, that can understand English, can read the Gospels for himself and decide quite easily if murdering anyone in the name of Christ, can be justified from the words and teachings of Christ. It and they cannot. That is somehow hard for you to agree with?

Consequently, all Christians are considered responsible for the actions of a few. By neglecting to bring reproach upon reprehensible deeds of years past, one may assume you condone them.

It seems to me looking at the history of Chriatian atrocities that 90% or more are laid at the feet of the Catholic Church. OK I'll hold them accountable BY the words of Christ.

Think of it this way. A select few individuals take part in a conspiracy in an otherwise respectable organization. Do not the innocent members of that organization make a point of criticizing the criminal actions of the other few?

No offense man, but do you understand what "protest - ant" literally means? It means people not agreeing with what is going on by those who claim to be followers of Christ and are doing "bad things."

If not, the entire organization's reputation is greatly tainted. A small number of people can ruin the credibility of an entire body. You see it all the time. This seems to be exactly what is currently happening to Christianity and Islam alike. The objectionable actions of a small faction (both past and present) hold the entire mass accountable.

Then please hold Humanists to the same standard. Their members have literally invented weapons of mass destruction. You do know the Nobel Peace prize is named after the inventor of dynamite?

Make a point of distancing yourself from these things, don't try to pretend they do not exist.

I don't. I compare the hundreds of millions of people killed by atheists and secularists and Muslims et al. That of course means I notice and acknowledge the wrongs done by Christians that would not follow the teachings of Jesus. I think the number of people over the last two thousand yesr was a little over two-million. Compared to 50-million children murdered by secular laws sincew Roe vs. Wade I am more than happy to use the scales of justice anytime.

And atheists don't apologize or hold each other accountable LIKE you see Christians doing. In fact the large numbers of denominations proves that point.

You seem ready to discount absolutely any criticism of your subscribed religion. You commonly offer rash generalizations depicting every Christian as caring, loving, and charitable.

What are you talking about? I hold every Christian myself included, to the words of Christ Jesus. That is why Democrats and Liberals have to be asked to leave.

In reality, there are MANY Christians of highly disputable character- even of your own brand.

And how do we prove it? By using the words of Christ!

Ignoring these faults is no step towards abolishing them. What are my chances of eliminating a personal defect by pretending it does not exist? Absolutely none.

The only defect in Christianty is from personal choices made by Christians to not folow the words and teachings of Christ. Marrying men together would be a good place to see the defect in some "Christians."

BUT: Is Benedict Arnold considered an America patriot or a traitor to America?

Please, allow me to dispense of an unequivocal statement to counter your sweeping ones: Many Christians are horrible people. It is Christianity in fact, that influences a number of those people to be horrible to begin with.

This is either a statment made out of ignorance or bigotry. Please prove where in the Gospels a Christian can find a starting place to do horrible things?

Accpet this and you have taken a step towards being enlightened.

Determining the whose is the bloodiest is irrelevant; a non-issue.

Please tell this to the bobbleheads (freethinkers-humanists-atheists-agniostics- yada0yada), that keep bringing up Christian atrocities that happened what, five hundred years ago?

While we have been typing away, Muslims have killed people and women have had their children slaughtered for their convenience.

Where are the bobbleheads towards those atrocities? I mean right now!

Instead of playing the blame game, let's accept the facts. Athiests commit crimes. Christians commit crimes. They are both wrong. I assume we agree up to this point?

Me? I blame both. But not equally because Christians are not killing anyone or harming anyone today or yesterday. So please feel free to play the blame game where it is apporopriate. Use the Bible and the Gospels (and the law) against Christians, and I will use the Five O'Clock news and print media to back up my facts.

From Mein Kampf:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

I'd ask if you're joiking but I know you're not.

Jesus was a Jew. Hitler was an Aryan. Look up both religions.

A speech in 1922:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."

Have you ever read the Gospels. It is quite evidence Adolf never did.

Please show this fighter-Jesus from the pages of the New Testament. You will see that the Jesus in the Bible is not the one Hitler was referencing. Please "test all things" that I present.

Now, there is signifigant evidence suggesting Hitler did not actually hold these beliefs to heart. However, he used them to justify his anti-jew advocacy. These quotes helped in gaining the country's support, and cannot be negated as a major factor leading to World War Two.

Hitlers Christianity must have fallen on deaf ears to the Christians that protected Jewish people in their own homes. Many that went to the Concentration Camps or were shot in those homes alongside of the Jews theye were protecting.

As I stated before, whether he submitted to true Christian fundamentals matters not. He still used the Bible to support his convictions, and consequently, the rest of the organization (us) should make a point of debunking his views so as not to become held accountable for his actions. Many people do blame Christianity for such events.

And in an honest court of law would any Christian that lives by the teachings of Christ be proved guilty of any blame. Many Christian organizations debunked what Hitlers stormtroopers were doing and they were killed.

For the most part, but not entirely. From what I have seen, they took particular verses (such as the one in Luke) and blew them out proportion. They ignored every other verse that contradicted that belief.

That literally defines what is happening in Liberal Christian "Churches" at this very moment.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

An outsider I'm thinking, that can understand English, can read the Gospels for himself and decide quite easily if murdering anyone in the name of Christ, can be justified from the words and teachings of Christ. It and they cannot. That is somehow hard for you to agree with?

I find it quite easy to agree with. Others however, do not.

This argument was intended to depict another's perspective, not my own. If you do not understand the arguments of others, you do not fully understand your own. I'm not sure you really understand the opposing argument.

It seems to me looking at the history of Chriatian atrocities that 90% or more are laid at the feet of the Catholic Church. OK I'll hold them accountable BY the words of Christ.

So we are shifting the blame to the Catholics now? What of the other 10%?

I am inclined to believe that people that bear such an attitude shoulder some of the blame for Christian attrocities. They seem to be too busy finding a scapegoat to actually focus on the stem of the problem and work toward it's eradication.

Then please hold Humanists to the same standard. Their members have literally invented weapons of mass destruction. You do know the Nobel Peace prize is named after the inventor of dynamite?

I might suggest the same thing of you. Under your idealogy, Christians who do not agree with the actions of other Christians are in no way accountable for those Christian's actions. Rightfully so. However, you contend that ALL Humanists are accountable for the abominable actions of a few.

In essence, you characterize Christians, but generalize non-Christians. Doesn't seem very fair. Not all Humanists support killing, WMDs, and other things of the like. Very few do, as a matter of fact. So why do you speak of them as such?

I do my best to hold all people to the same standard. I do not believe I contradict that statement in asking all Christians to take notice and apologize for the heinous acts of a small faction amoung their number. I would suggest that all Humanists do likewise.

I think the number of people over the last two thousand yesr was a little over two-million. Compared to 50-million children murdered by secular laws sincew Roe vs. Wade I am more than happy to use the scales of justice anytime.

I do not understand these "scales of justice". Person A commits one murder. Person B commits 50. Do not both persons recieve life sentences?

There are no scales. Merely justice. This is the mentality taught in the Bible.

"Whoever is guilty of breaking one of Gods laws is guilty of breaking them all".

A sinner is a sinner, is a sinner, is a sinner.
Murderers and liars will be condemned to the same degree.

What are you talking about? I hold every Christian myself included, to the words of Christ Jesus. That is why Democrats and Liberals have to be asked to leave.

That is not what I meant.

What I alluded to, was that you seem to readily discount any criticism brought about your brand of Christianity, even when there is substantial evidence backing that claim. You and so many other Christians live in a constant state of denial, which tends to allow your problems to further manifest.

Please note that I do not state this as a fact, but merely an observation. I may be wrong, and if so, I appologise. I only state what I percieve.

The only defect in Christianty is from personal choices made by Christians to not folow the words and teachings of Christ.

For the most part, but granted, mistranslation is also a factor.

BUT: Is Benedict Arnold considered an America patriot or a traitor to America?

Sorry, but the relevance of this question seems to have escaped me. Could you explain more thoroughly?

Most people view him as a traitor. I am not quite convinced. I suppose that is another argument entirely.

This is either a statment made out of ignorance or bigotry. Please prove where in the Gospels a Christian can find a starting place to do horrible things?

Luke 19:27.

This verse, mistranslated and taken out of context, can (and has) provided for a perfect onset of Christian attrocities.

Accpet this and you have taken a step towards being enlightened.

Surely you don't think that I consider there to be places in the Bible that advocate violence?

If that is the case, I was 'enlightened' quite some time ago. From the very first time I read the Bible through, to be precise.

Me? I blame both. But not equally because Christians are not killing anyone or harming anyone today or yesterday.

Advocating a theocracy is not harming anyone? Berating non-believers is not an unwarranted form of abuse?

The assertion that people are not currently killing in the name of Christianity is inaccurate as well. What of Eric Robert Rudolf and company?

I will use the Five O'Clock news and print media to back up my facts.

Personally, I would not consider those particularly reliable sources. Occasionally. Perhaps.

I'd ask if you're joiking but I know you're not.

I am merely quoting the exact words of dear Adolf.

That literally defines what is happening in Liberal Christian "Churches" at this very moment.

And many conservative churches alike.

[AlAyeti]

Luke 19:27.

This verse, mistranslated and taken out of context, can (and has) provided for a perfect onset of Christian attrocities.

A verse, mistranslated and taken out of context. Isn't that my very point against what Liberals and Hitler have done?

Excuse me for thinking you just proved my position.

Luke 19:27 is a parable about people that a King trusted as letting Him down. This might be another good place to find my position against what liberals are doing strengthened against Churches that celebrate sinners and not try to convince them to repent.

What Church holds celebrations of diversity that highlights a couple of adulterers getting divorced to marry their fellow adulterers?

This argument was intended to depict another's perspective, not my own. If you do not understand the arguments of others, you do not fully understand your own. I'm not sure you really understand the opposing argument.

I have been censured for giving what I get on these boards. There is very little civil debate. Who are we kidding. I am very well aware of the stakes here. I can just as easily switch to play the Devil's advocate but that would literally mean helping demons and not seen as a good philosophical undertaking. Look at the thread that lists "in jest" 200-plus funnies against Christianity. It is not meant as anything but proving some boobleheadism of the secular movement.

I see agreement with many Liberal issues but, if I nod in the slightest then I am also seen as one of them selling out the Lord of Glory and the Gospel of life. Liberals are dead on correct about the poor and the needy but they have too many parasites in their body of believers that bring death too so many as well.

Quote:
It seems to me looking at the history of Chriatian atrocities that 90% or more are laid at the feet of the Catholic Church. OK I'll hold them accountable BY the words of Christ.

So we are shifting the blame to the Catholics now? What of the other 10%?

In a court of law, facts are supposed to have weight on guilt are they not?

I am inclined to believe that people that bear such an attitude shoulder some of the blame for Christian attrocities. They seem to be too busy finding a scapegoat to actually focus on the stem of the problem and work toward it's eradication.

How have I not held Catholics to the same Gospel accountabilty that I do for Liberals and Adolf Hitler? And athesists and their "ilk?"

I'm applying a consistency that should at least show fairness. It is just bunk that the Bible can be "translated" to mean a bunch of different things. Marriage and family are prime examples. Espesially from the Gospels. And as a Christian the Gospels are the last word because the come from the Son of God. Yes love is the key, but how much love is there in not telling someone to stop a life of sexual deviance or a life of violence?

Under your idealogy, Christians who do not agree with the actions of other Christians are in no way accountable for those Christian's actions. Rightfully so. However, you contend that ALL Humanists are accountable for the abominable actions of a few.

In essence, you characterize Christians, but generalize non-Christians. Doesn't seem very fair. Not all Humanists support killing, WMDs, and other things of the like. Very few do, as a matter of fact. So why do you speak of them as such?

I do my best to hold all people to the same standard. I do not believe I contradict that statement in asking all Christians to take notice and apologize for the heinous acts of a small faction amoung their number. I would suggest that all Humanists do likewise.

Non-Christians generalize Christians and do so with effortless ignorance. The many denominations speaks to the issues we are discussing.

Humanists and their belief sytem has killed more humans than have ever fought in wars. That is just facst. Abortion is championed by Humanists. I do not believe there is any justification from the Gospels for abortion for convenience. Or, to change the family, or, to marry two men together or two women.

I do not understand these "scales of justice". Person A commits one murder. Person B commits 50. Do not both persons recieve life sentences?

I just return the atrocities comparison every time a bobbleheaded secularists claims Christianty is so bad.

There are no scales. Merely justice. This is the mentality taught in the Bible.

I believe that evidence is indeed wieghed and the correct judgment is made. Even in the Bible.

"Whoever is guilty of breaking one of Gods laws is guilty of breaking them all".

"All of us like sheep have gone astray." Repentance must preced forgiveness and returning from straying. Is this not the Gospel message? Then how can a Christian celebrate sin ans sinners within the Church? I can see why people like homosexuals hate Christians, but I don't understand Christians violating the Gospels and celebrating sin and sinners, literall keping people astray!


A sinner is a sinner, is a sinner, is a sinner.
Murderers and liars will be condemned to the same degree.

[AlAyeti]

Sorry, I hit submit instead of SpellCheck.

A sinner is a sinner, is a sinner, is a sinner.
Murderers and liars will be condemned to the same degree.

Not according to Jesus. The condemned man next to Him on the cross made it to paradise that day. The woman caught in adultery was admonished to "Go and sin no more." What seems to escape people in that scene is that she was held accountable for her actions. Jesus did not condemn her, though He still gave her Godly advice. In fact, to give some credence to Liberal views, why was she prostituting herself anyway? To live probably.

Although I have never bought time with a hooker it would be very Christian to pay one to listen to the Gospel. But if I was a Liberal Christian, I would be getting her a lawyer to sue for her rights to continue being a prostitute.

Certainly not Godly (Jesus) advice.

It seems that all the thief and the whore had to do was recognize Jesus for Who He was. And of course going and not sinning. Probably easier for the condemned man that went on to Paradise

Quote:
What are you talking about? I hold every Christian myself included, to the words of Christ Jesus. That is why Democrats and Liberals have to be asked to leave. .

That is not what I meant.

What I alluded to, was that you seem to readily discount any criticism brought about your brand of Christianity, even when there is substantial evidence backing that claim. You and so many other Christians live in a constant state of denial, which tends to allow your problems to further manifest.

Please note that I do not state this as a fact, but merely an observation. I may be wrong, and if so, I appologise. I only state what I percieve.

I fight criticism fairly. I have never denied anything even to the fact of being brutally descriptive of facts.

Never need to apologize to me. We are cyberspace debaters. Personal insults? How?

Quote:
The only defect in Christianty is from personal choices made by Christians to not folow the words and teachings of Christ.

For the most part, but granted, mistranslation is also a factor.

Marriage has no way of being mistranslated. In fact Christians are always seeking the oldest manuscripts to always seek the best translation. Very open-minded. But never given any credit. I believe skeptics have been very useful to the cause of Biblical truth.

(But I in no way admire or respect most of them. Just the truth of some of their points. But the whole, who created God? thing is stupid to me. Who created a house? A tree has never fallen and never will to become a house. And creation the whole observable universe is "infinitely" more complicated to building a house.)

Quote:
BUT: Is Benedict Arnold considered an America patriot or a traitor to America?

Sorry, but the relevance of this question seems to have escaped me. Could you explain more thoroughly?

Most people view him as a traitor. I am not quite convinced. I suppose that is another argument entirely.

Arnold wasn't a traitor to his county. He was British after all. Christians are traitors to mankind and other people that try to build a false Church. Think about the analogy.

Advocating a theocracy is not harming anyone? Berating non-believers is not an unwarranted form of abuse?

Christians are only voting their conscience. Isn't that a Liberal-Secular mantra?

The assertion that people are not currently killing in the name of Christianity is inaccurate as well. What of Eric Robert Rudolf and company?

It is terrible what he admitted doing to the Olympics and at the gay bar. Innocent people shouldn't be fought against. And again Rudolh went against the teachings of Jesus. I hope he repents. And yes he should spend the rest of his life in jail.

Quote:
I will use the Five O'Clock news and print media to back up my facts.

Personally, I would not consider those particularly reliable sources. Occasionally. Perhaps.

They certainly speak for the homosexual agenda. It is not debateable that Christians unarmed and innocent are being slaughtered in massive numbers worldwide and no one is speaking out against it. The forces of Satan are indeed united in silent voice.

I am merely quoting the exact words of dear Adolf.

And I used the qoutations from Jesus the Messiah against Hitler.

He is condemned.

Conservative Churches are holding those same quotes of the Lord to better example of what is to "being" a Christian, than what Liberal churches are doing . . . as we speak. It is just a fact.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Okay. I began to respond quote by quote as we have been doing, but suddenly realized that I don't even remember what the original issue is. Over the past couple pages this argument seems to have turned both circular, and pointless. Let's go back to the beginning for a moment:

Okay, just one problem.

You single out merely secularists as committing crimes against humanity. Lets not forget the many Christians that have done equal (or worse).

From here the discussion shifted from rich people, to Christian attrocities. You claim that more people have died by the hands of seculiarist/humanist/athiests. I claim that the difference in numbers does not matter; both sides are guilty. You then assert that those Christian crimes cannot be labeled as "Christian", being that they strictly go against the teachings of Christ. I agree, yet suggest we should still take accountability for them, distance our beliefs from theirs, and in doing so hopefully stifle any future fiendish outbreaks in the name of Christ. I hold this true under the idea that publicly condemning such actions (rather than brushing them off as being either irrelevant or myth) sets a standard that possible future oppressive Christians will be more prone to follow.

Anyway, if you feel like starting the debate over from this point, I will be willing to retort. But I am not getting anything out of the current circular digression, and would imagine that you arn't either.

Now, a few unrelated things.

I have been censured for giving what I get on these boards.

Just FYI, you often give substantially more than you get. Sometimes I think you mischaracterize our arguments with those of the typical agressive anti-Christ liberals in the media and workplace. Not everyone is out to get you.

A sinner is a sinner, is a sinner, is a sinner.
Murderers and liars will be condemned to the same degree.

Not according to Jesus. The condemned man next to Him on the cross made it to paradise that day. The woman caught in adultery was admonished to "Go and sin no more." What seems to escape people in that scene is that she was held accountable for her actions. Jesus did not condemn her, though He still gave her Godly advice. In fact, to give some credence to Liberal views, why was she prostituting herself anyway? To live probably.

I was always under the impression that "paradise" in the given context refers to what we would call "purgatory". This seems to make more sense, seeing as no one really goes to heaven until Christ comes again. There is also no evidence in the text depicting the condemned man repenting and changing the way he thinks and acts. He was even making fun of Jesus just before his death, remember?

The woman caught in adultery recieved forgiveness; a staple of Jesus' teachings that everyone may recieve. Therefore, how is her sin recieving any greater treatment than another? Any sin can be forgiven.

I don't see how either of these verses show that there are different levels of sin, as you insist.

Certain sins vary in level of severity, but any one sin (no matter how severe) can keep you from the kingdom of heaven. Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death". A liar will be condemned. A mass murderer will be condemned.

In this way, seculiarists and Christians alike will both suffer for the attrocities they commit, no matter who has wrought more.

Advocating a theocracy is not harming anyone? Berating non-believers is not an unwarranted form of abuse?

Christians are only voting their conscience. Isn't that a liberal-Secular mantra?

There must be something ethically wrong with one whose concience tells them to curse and forcibly conform those who do not agree with them...

[melikio]

There must be something ethically wrong with one whose concience tells them to curse and forcibly conform those who do not agree with them...

Likely ANYONE who does what you point out above, is NOT expressing LOVE.

And far too often, that is what has become of those who are (extreme) "fundamentalist Christians", "Ultra Right-Wing Conservatives", or "anti-religious Liberals".

One of the BEST examples of how UN-HELPFUL people can really become to humanity, are certain Islamic extremists, who will kill (wantonly), to gain THEIR place in Heaven. Not that certain "Christians" haven't done that also, but the Islamists are the more prominent and extreme examples of it today. And this is definitely not indicting ALL of any particular group. Even so, most reasonable human beings KNOW which actions help others (as opposed to actions which cause pain and suffering). God didn't put us here, to "PLAY GOD". (IMO)

People can TALK all they want to about Jesus being a "liberal" or a "conservative", but in the end I think ALL endeavors will be measured in a way that escapes mankind's perceptions.

The BEST clues for truth I've ever seen (personally), tend to associate themselves with LOVE. And the LOVE I'm referring to, points to and aligns itself with ACTIONS, not mere "words" (whether from a book, or memorized by some human). What people DO (how they treat others overall), speaks clearly enough.

Actions DO typically speak louder/clearer than words, and love is best expressed through actions. No games there; you either HELP people overall, or you DO NOT. And one's intentions are exceedingly more difficult to explain with "words", than by "actions". DO NOT say: "Love the sinner; hate the sin." and then SHOW that you actually HATE the "sinner". Do not scream to the TOP of one's lungs so exclusively about homosexuality, when remarriage (typically adultery) is barely "winked" at. Do not project the illusion that children are SUFFERING from anything more than unloving mothers/fathers and broken families.

If hypocrisy and double-standards are allowed to run rampant within Christianity, then love will be "tainted" severely. From what I've seen, the truth is a companion of true love. It is a mitigator of what AILS EVERYONE in this world (sin). And whether you believe in Christ or NOT, the REAL LOVE of a REAL FOLLOWER of God, can accomplish far more than "religion" and "moral dictates" ever will.

Real (unconditional) love affects people from the inside out; it is effective and properly-packaged truth, prepared for human consumption. People who try to take a feeding tube, and force-feed ANYTHING (good or bad), will most likely be opposed. And while some see that as "rebellion", I see it as people being HUMAN. At the very least, it is an expression of the free-will imparted unto us by the Creator...at most...a DIVINE SAFEGUARD against tyrants (religious or otherwise) holding absolute-power over mankind (which IMO is God's providence, and no one else's).

And truly, if I have to take my chances between God's grace, and the relgious dogma some are apt to spout...I'll cling tightly to Jesus/God (faith, hope and LOVE). Not that God doesn't see that I'm sinful, but that He knows me inside and out (completely); and He really cares.

-Mel-

[micatala]

Yet not one atheist will accept the carnage totaling in the tens or hundreds of millions by communist atheists and secualrists. Why should I, a Christian that lives by the words of Christ Jesus, believe that those that do not are really Christians? What ever happened to proof and evidence?

BUt Al, you are consistently the one who ignores logic, proof, and evidence.

Atheists are not all of one belief. There are not 'churches of atheism' that teach atheist doctrine. They are not bound be common doctrines except for the commonality of disbelieving that God exists.

In my view, neither atheists nor Christians should feel any compunction to answer for the crimes of anyone else, whether the anyone is an atheist or a Christian or not. We each answer for our own crimes. For those of us who are Christians, this is the Biblical view. God only asks us to answer for our own actions, not for the actions of others. Obviously it is up to you how you want to act, but I would suggest that for you to lay the blame for the crimes of Stalin or Lenin at the feet of 'atheists in general' is un-Biblical. You are judging all atheists for the crimes of a few.

Even if some atheists try to lay the blame for the crimes of particular Christians at the feet of all, in my view, we as Christians should 'turn the other cheek' at least to the extent that we do not respond in kind by throwing the same type of illogical and untrue assertions back. Yes, I think it is appropriate to say that not all Christians are responsible for the crimes of the few. BUt then, leave it at that.

I think PP has a point in that it would be useful for us as Christians to at least acknowledge the truth that some CHristians commit crimes or atrocities, and that in our view these people are not following the teachings of Christ. WE can use these opportunities to teach others of the true Christian teachings of peace and love.

If we respond by making similar ridiculous attacks, then (IMHO) we only show that we too are not following Christ's teachings.

[AlAyeti]

What I point out by comparing atrocities is that the freethinker rarely is.

Calling out the two and half million people that have died in Christian started wars is only applicable to some kind of point if it gets compared to what atheists have done.

Russia alone, with Lenin and Stalin should make a rationally thinking person not want to see an atheist on the street. Let alone petitioning the Supreme Court to outlaw Christian speech.

This thread is about a Pastor that did the right thing by asking Democrats that voted for John Kerry to leave his church.

Why the debate needed to find its way off that track is unfortunate. Democrats cannot be supported by Christians by their stance on abortion alone. There is no doubt that abortion is used for birth control. No reasonable person believes that the 45-million plus abortions since Roe v. Wade were the result of rape or incest and pregnancy is obviously not a life threatening endeavor in the Western world.

Now, the special interest groups of anti-Christians have so filled the ranks of Democrats that it can never be held to moral accountability. Hollywoodites flock to the Democrats like fleas to a dog. Hollywood literally poisons the minds AND BODIES of our children.

America's reaction to Kerry was not against a man that may ot not be a heinous guy. It was a referendum against the licentiousness legislated into acceptability by Democrats.

How many MTV employees are Liberals? That now means Democrat.

Americans will slide into complacency yet again, and the Democrats may sneak back into power. But if the Democrats legalize same-sex marriage and America's children come home with lubes and condoms and manuals on how to safely fist each other, instead of homework, then we'll see fine Pastors like the one in this thread eject more Democrats from good churches like those fleas on a hound.

The issue for Christians is simple. If you come into a Christian church, than be a Christian.

Loving your neighbor as yourself doesn't mean voting for Sodom and Gomorrah to literally rise from the ashes and become a powerful political force to charge Churches with hate crimes for preacing the Bible the way it is written.

It is that simple.