Can religion really claim to guide on morality?

[SolidSnake]

I have a question I would much appreciate some ideas on from those of faiths and also those of no faith.

"Can religious leaders and followers of a religion claim with conviction and a clear conscience that their faith be the very compass of morality that we all should follow?"

Isn't there a huge amount of hypocrisy in this? There are many quotes and teachings in holy books that fly in the face of what we would call moral and even by todays standards we would feel were totally immoral.

[Ragna]

Hello, I was just shocked by an apparent contradiction. You say this:

Shall I offer any other evidence? Absolutely not. Don't even ask because I won't give it. Jesus said it shouldn't be done. Something about not sharing one's treasure with a bunch of pigs. I'm sure YOU understand the meaning well enough.

Do you feel like the quote below can apply to what you say above? (Extend "religious bigotry" to "bigotry" in itself.) Why or why not?

Religious bigotry and hatred is evidenced by a lack of respect, illogic and unreasoning rejection of any example or evidence. It is the measure of one who has a mean and destructive character.

Emphasis mine

[otseng]

You have the choice of looking at my finger or gazing into the sky.
I give you the sky and I give you the finger.

Something about not sharing one's treasure with a bunch of pigs. I'm sure YOU understand the meaning well enough.

Ever hear the joke about the dead atheist? All dressed up and no place to go.

Moderator Warning
Please review our Rules.

I consider these comments flamebait and indirect attacks. This is a place for civil discussion, not for disguised derision.

______________

Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[TomD]

"Can religious leaders and followers of a religion claim with conviction and a clear conscience that their faith be the very compass of morality that we all should follow?"

Isn't there a huge amount of hypocrisy in this? There are many quotes and teachings in holy books that fly in the face of what we would call moral and even by todays standards we would feel were totally immoral.

The first thing to realise is that a compass points somewhere, so the moral compass points to an eschatalogical end, but the difference between that of Christianity and that of Buddhism are radically different, even though many of the moral values espoused by the two traditions are common to each.

The first requirement is to separate the word of the holy book in question from its expression in a cultural context. Christianity's history is littered with examples of this, and the inheritance of a cultural misogyny is a huge stumbling block we're going to have to tackle at some point.

In my experience, 'fundamentalism', be it of the kind evidenced in certain Islamic states, or the Christian kind evidenced in the US, flies in the face both of the Word of Scripture, and the Tradition that espoused it.

I don't think there are many quotes and teachings in holy books that fly in the face of contemporary moral values? There are certainly those that reflect the moral norms of the day, that we find unacceptable today, but have you discussed this issue with informed commentators of the respective traditions to ensure you have the right understanding?

I do think however there are many contemporary moral values that fly in the face not only of the sacra doctrina of the world, and which they would view as immoral.

God bless,

Thomas

[Choir Loft]

I have a question I would much appreciate some ideas on from those of faiths and also those of no faith.

"Can religious leaders and followers of a religion claim with conviction and a clear conscience that their faith be the very compass of morality that we all should follow?"

Isn't there a huge amount of hypocrisy in this? There are many quotes and teachings in holy books that fly in the face of what we would call moral and even by todays standards we would feel were totally immoral.

The flag of hypocrisy is always saluted by those who seek to justify their own anti-social attitudes and behavior. Morality was the cement of society long before there were Christians.

Morality, like art, means drawing a line someplace.
Oscar Wilde

"What is "real"? How do you define "real"?
This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back.
You take the blue pill -- the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe.
You take the red pill -- you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."
Morpheus, from THE MATRIX

Do you like milk?
The liquid is nothing more than a cow's secretion.
Urine is also a cow's secretion.
Both liquids are secretions.

Judgment is the difference. One is good to drink and one is not.
Fools sit on the fence and debate the morality of drinking one or the other.
The wise man judges and acts upon that which is wholesome.

[Autodidact]

If course, there seems to be a some unsupported claims in this. Can you show that God even exists, must less 'holds his hand out in a gesture of reconsilation'?

Can you show that 'hatred is employed'?? Doubting the word of people who make claims in a God's name they can't show to exist is not hatred.

Can I show that God exists? Easy.

The fact that I am typing these words is proof positive, physical and certain.
I would have died six times or more if not for the direct intervention of providence.
Because HE lives, I live.

Can you provide any support for this assertion?

The Invisible Pink Unicorn exists, and I can prove it. I would have died 100 times while reading your post, had She not intervened to save me with Her magical magic.

Does that argument work for you?

[Autodidact]

Humans are not part animal, we are animals.

In so far as you speak for yourself, I agree.
Other people, not so much.

The use of the adjective pure in your argument sounds a whole lot like the true Scotsman argument.

What are you, an English teacher or somebody who likes to show how clever he is by picking apart a sentence one word at a time?

Your analysis proves nothing except that you are adept at avoiding the point.
Still, that's something - when logic fails you've got to look good somewhere along the line.

Once. Just once, I'd like to read a reply from some self-styled religious bigot that was original. Instead the world is treated to conceited blather. These people think they're being clever when all they succeed in doing is publishing adolescent tripe. They write like a broken record. How refreshing it would be if they conjured up something new to say. Alas, that is not to be.

There are problems with religion because people are involved. The nature of man is to go his own way. The problem is that man is like the lemming; all grimly determined that their path is the right one and all headed for self-destruction despite warnings and signs to the contrary.

richardP wrote "Absolute power corrupts, absolutely."

So then what can be said of an omnipotent being. Omnicorrupt?

This is a clear and present example of conceited bigotry masquerading as humor. The phrase I quoted is a common one and refers to corruption in human leadership.

Your hatred of logic and religious folk is so obscene that you cannot even force yourself to admit the point of a simple four word quote.

"When a man points to a bird in the sky, it is the fool who examines his finger."
- Anonymous

Should a person not practice good morals irrespective of religious faith? Can a person of faith justify bad behavior on the basis of that faith?

I suppose an irreligious person could practice good behavior. You certainly can't. Your revulsion of all persons who believe in something higher than themselves, yes and even God Himself, borders on demonic obsession.

In the middle ages, the common belief was that the earth was the center of the universe. In all the years since and in all the progression of science, philosophy and politics we still see evidence of people that believe something similar.

Denying God, they believe that the universe revolves around themselves. There is nothing beyond their own limited understanding and no vision beyond their own self-imposed blindness, no purpose in life beyond that of the needs of the stomach.

Ever hear the joke about the dead atheist? All dressed up and no place to go.

God holds His hand out in a gesture of reconciliation all day long. But night is coming when mercy will end and justice must be paid. To deny God with an argument so thin that hatred must be employed to defend it is self-defeating. It is not good to live in rejection of God.
No man can war with a god and win.
Wise up, wise guy.


You have the choice of looking at my finger or gazing into the sky.
I give you the sky and I give you the finger.
Make your choice.
-30-

You have provided an excellent example of religious morality, thank you. Your post is basically a series of unprovoked insults and petty anger. Good job.

[Choir Loft]

If course, there seems to be a some unsupported claims in this. Can you show that God even exists, must less 'holds his hand out in a gesture of reconsilation'?

Can you show that 'hatred is employed'?? Doubting the word of people who make claims in a God's name they can't show to exist is not hatred.

Can I show that God exists? Easy.

The fact that I am typing these words is proof positive, physical and certain.
I would have died six times or more if not for the direct intervention of providence.
Because HE lives, I live.

Can you provide any support for this assertion?

The Invisible Pink Unicorn exists, and I can prove it. I would have died 100 times while reading your post, had She not intervened to save me with Her magical magic.

Does that argument work for you?

God reveals Himself.

Only to those,
whom He chooses.

The world knows Him not,
for He has hidden Himself,
from the world.

He reveals Himself only to those whom He loves.
To them His hand is merciful and full of grace.


"Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men in whom he is well pleased."

Luke 2:14

--> 'IN WHOM HE IS WELL PLEASED' <--

Those who God does not love,
do not know Him.
Neither do they,
know His children.

There is no light upon them,
that sit in darkness,
in the shadow of death.

Their food is bitterness.
Their breath speaks hatred of God,
their destiny - endless wailing against the Holy One.
They cannot find the way of peace.

Chained by bonds of pride,
they are restrained from cries for mercy,
else they may find it.

The god of this world blinds them.
They stumble in error.
They dwell in the land of lies,
their only future is death.

If they should cry unto Heaven,
and seek the Faithful One,
with all their heart,
the Almighty would hear them,
and come to them,
and heal their pain,
and lift them up,
and give them life, and hope and joy.

Instead they live alone,
devouring their own flesh,
drinking their own blood,
cursing the darkness,
waiting for death's cold hand.

Darkness yields to death and death to eternity without hope.

For death is near to every man.
No one turns back,
once they cross the line.

Call upon God while you may,
yield humbly to Him if He answers.

Embrace Him when He comes,
and He will embrace you.
Great things will he reveal,
beginning with Himself.

[Autodidact]

If course, there seems to be a some unsupported claims in this. Can you show that God even exists, must less 'holds his hand out in a gesture of reconsilation'?

Can you show that 'hatred is employed'?? Doubting the word of people who make claims in a God's name they can't show to exist is not hatred.

Can I show that God exists? Easy.

The fact that I am typing these words is proof positive, physical and certain.
I would have died six times or more if not for the direct intervention of providence.
Because HE lives, I live.

Can you provide any support for this assertion?

The Invisible Pink Unicorn exists, and I can prove it. I would have died 100 times while reading your post, had She not intervened to save me with Her magical magic.

Does that argument work for you?

God reveals Himself.

Only to those,
whom He chooses.

The world knows Him not,
for He has hidden Himself,
from the world.

He reveals Himself only to those whom He loves.
To them His hand is merciful and full of grace.


"Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men in whom he is well pleased."

Luke 2:14

--> 'IN WHOM HE IS WELL PLEASED' <--

Those who God does not love,
do not know Him.
Neither do they,
know His children.

There is no light upon them,
that sit in darkness,
in the shadow of death.

Their food is bitterness.
Their breath speaks hatred of God,
their destiny - endless wailing against the Holy One.
They cannot find the way of peace.

Chained by bonds of pride,
they are restrained from cries for mercy,
else they may find it.

The god of this world blinds them.
They stumble in error.
They dwell in the land of lies,
their only future is death.

If they should cry unto Heaven,
and seek the Faithful One,
with all their heart,
the Almighty would hear them,
and come to them,
and heal their pain,
and lift them up,
and give them life, and hope and joy.

Instead they live alone,
devouring their own flesh,
drinking their own blood,
cursing the darkness,
waiting for death's cold hand.

Darkness yields to death and death to eternity without hope.

For death is near to every man.
No one turns back,
once they cross the line.

Call upon God while you may,
yield humbly to Him if He answers.

Embrace Him when He comes,
and He will embrace you.
Great things will he reveal,
beginning with Himself.

So if I understand you, God is going to inflict eternal torment on me for not believing in Him, but He's deliberately hiding from me? Because He doesn't love me, so He wants me to experience eternal torture? Is that all correct?

[Autodidact]

If course, there seems to be a some unsupported claims in this. Can you show that God even exists, must less 'holds his hand out in a gesture of reconsilation'?

Can you show that 'hatred is employed'?? Doubting the word of people who make claims in a God's name they can't show to exist is not hatred.

Can I show that God exists? Easy.

The fact that I am typing these words is proof positive, physical and certain.
I would have died six times or more if not for the direct intervention of providence.
Because HE lives, I live.

Can you provide any support for this assertion?

The Invisible Pink Unicorn exists, and I can prove it. I would have died 100 times while reading your post, had She not intervened to save me with Her magical magic.

Does that argument work for you?

God reveals Himself.

Only to those,
whom He chooses.

The world knows Him not,
for He has hidden Himself,
from the world.

He reveals Himself only to those whom He loves.
To them His hand is merciful and full of grace.


"Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men in whom he is well pleased."

Luke 2:14

--> 'IN WHOM HE IS WELL PLEASED' <--

Those who God does not love,
do not know Him.
Neither do they,
know His children.

There is no light upon them,
that sit in darkness,
in the shadow of death.

Their food is bitterness.
Their breath speaks hatred of God,
their destiny - endless wailing against the Holy One.
They cannot find the way of peace.

Chained by bonds of pride,
they are restrained from cries for mercy,
else they may find it.

The god of this world blinds them.
They stumble in error.
They dwell in the land of lies,
their only future is death.

If they should cry unto Heaven,
and seek the Faithful One,
with all their heart,
the Almighty would hear them,
and come to them,
and heal their pain,
and lift them up,
and give them life, and hope and joy.

Instead they live alone,
devouring their own flesh,
drinking their own blood,
cursing the darkness,
waiting for death's cold hand.

Darkness yields to death and death to eternity without hope.

For death is near to every man.
No one turns back,
once they cross the line.

Call upon God while you may,
yield humbly to Him if He answers.

Embrace Him when He comes,
and He will embrace you.
Great things will he reveal,
beginning with Himself.

So God exists, but you can't demonstrate it to me because for His own reasons He chooses to hide from me, so I just have to take your word for it?

btw, ditto for IPU. She exists, but she doesn't want Richard to know about it. I'm just letting you in on the secret out of the goodness of my heart. Take my word for it. Sound good?

[Goat]

God reveals Himself.

Only to those,
whom He chooses.

That is an interesting claim. I assume that you believe you are one that God reveled himself to.

Can you show evidence that this is so, without resorting to more unsupported claim, or ad hominem attacks?

The world knows Him not,
for He has hidden Himself,
from the world.

He reveals Himself only to those whom He loves.
To them His hand is merciful and full of grace.

Poetry and preaching is not debate. Can you show what you claim is true?

"Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men in whom he is well pleased."

Luke 2:14

<snip bible verses>
--> 'IN WHOM HE IS WELL PLEASED' <--

And your evidence that the writer of the Gospel of Luke was correct, and that this is a 'guide to morality'? Why do you consider this rhetoric a guide to morality? What does it actually say beside 'believe because i say so?'