Christians: Why Do You Believe?

[Danny McGee]

Hello, I'm Danny.

This is my first post here, and I'd like to get to know the community a bit before I jump into the debate forums.

I'm an atheist/agnostic (more on that later if you'd like to know the details), and I love debating with those of religious persuasions (particularly Christians). To offer some backstory, I was a very devout Christian for a long time. It's difficult to pin exactly how many years because I was born and raised in the Church; it seems silly to say that I was born a Christian, but I did profess Christ as my savior and deeply believe that I had a personal relationship with God as far back as I can remember before I lost my faith.

To make a very long story short, when I was about 16 I stumbled onto a popular Christian message board which had a very active forum for theological debate. Through debating there, I slowly morphed my way from a Pentecostal (from the Church of God denomination) into a reformed Calvinist that rather fancied the PCA but didn't really believe in the usefulness of denominations beyond being a label by which to easily define and categorize one's particular set of beliefs.

There were a handful of atheists on that site, and eventually I started debating with them as well. Finally, shortly after my 18th birthday, I could no longer satisfy the new doubts that had formed as a result of these discussions, and I announced my apostasy. I've identified as an atheist now for the better part of the last seven years. If you'd like to know more about my history, I penned a much longer article on the subject about five years ago on Newsvine. I won't post a direct link because I don't want to be confused for a spammer, but suffice to say that it's easy enough to find if you'd like to look for it.

I find myself lately missing the time I spent debating and discussing these sorts of topics in a fair and reasoned environment. It's my opinion that frank debate with your intellectual and philosophical rivals is necessary for the maintenance of a healthy and informed worldview. So, I did a quick Google search, stumbled across this site, and figured I'd join the discussion.

I'm strongly opinionated and can tend to come off as abrasive sometimes in discussions like these, so my intention with this thread is to get to know some of you before I start debating in earnest, so that I'm not just interacting with a bunch of anonymous names on a website.

So, what's your story? How did you come to believe what you believe, and what is it exactly that you believe? This is mainly directed at Christians, because Christianity is what I'm most familiar with, but feel free to chime in otherwise if you'd like.

[McCulloch]

You're not old enough to have been a very devout Christian for a long time. It just seemed like a long time to you.


I am a Humanist. I prefer that label to atheist, agnostic, agnomist [I don't believe in gnomes] or ignostic [I don't know what is meant by the term God, many definitions are illogical, vague or contradictory], all of which also apply, since it describes what I do believe rather than what I don't.

We have a user group for Former Christians if you wish to join. We even have our own discussion forum, which we ironically call The Outer Darkness. You will find some of our stories in the Introductions.

Welcome to the debates.

[sleepyhead]

So, what's your story? How did you come to believe what you believe, and what is it exactly that you believe? This is mainly directed at Christians, because Christianity is what I'm most familiar with, but feel free to chime in otherwise if you'd like.

Hello Danny,

For me the most important thing while on these forums is to improve our critical thinking skills. Some of the non theists here chose to only want to focus on the various versions of Christianity. IMO if they don't branch out a little bit there not going to improve their critical thinking skills.

I was raised as a Catholic, converted to one branch of the Mormon faith, then I converted to another branch of the Mormon faith and then I was in the library and read a book about Edgar Cayce. The EC material now forms a major part of my understanding of the whys and wherefores of my existence on earth.

[Adstar]

Hello, I'm Danny.

This is my first post here, and I'd like to get to know the community a bit before I jump into the debate forums.

I'm an atheist/agnostic (more on that later if you'd like to know the details), and I love debating with those of religious persuasions (particularly Christians). To offer some backstory, I was a very devout Christian for a long time. It's difficult to pin exactly how many years because I was born and raised in the Church; it seems silly to say that I was born a Christian, but I did profess Christ as my savior and deeply believe that I had a personal relationship with God as far back as I can remember before I lost my faith.

To make a very long story short, when I was about 16 I stumbled onto a popular Christian message board which had a very active forum for theological debate. Through debating there, I slowly morphed my way from a Pentecostal (from the Church of God denomination) into a reformed Calvinist that rather fancied the PCA but didn't really believe in the usefulness of denominations beyond being a label by which to easily define and categorize one's particular set of beliefs.

There were a handful of atheists on that site, and eventually I started debating with them as well. Finally, shortly after my 18th birthday, I could no longer satisfy the new doubts that had formed as a result of these discussions, and I announced my apostasy. I've identified as an atheist now for the better part of the last seven years. If you'd like to know more about my history, I penned a much longer article on the subject about five years ago on Newsvine. I won't post a direct link because I don't want to be confused for a spammer, but suffice to say that it's easy enough to find if you'd like to look for it.

I find myself lately missing the time I spent debating and discussing these sorts of topics in a fair and reasoned environment. It's my opinion that frank debate with your intellectual and philosophical rivals is necessary for the maintenance of a healthy and informed worldview.

Why must you look upon the other as your rival?

So, I did a quick Google search, stumbled across this site, and figured I'd join the discussion.

I'm strongly opinionated and can tend to come off as abrasive sometimes in discussions like these,

Why do you carry these attitudes?

so my intention with this thread is to get to know some of you before I start debating in earnest, so that I'm not just interacting with a bunch of anonymous names on a website.

So, what's your story? How did you come to believe what you believe, and what is it exactly that you believe? This is mainly directed at Christians, because Christianity is what I'm most familiar with, but feel free to chime in otherwise if you'd like.

Well i had a different start in life to you. I was born into a catholic family or should i say with a devout catholic dad. My mother while believing in God as far as i know was never into the catechism and praying the hail Mary and all the rest of the religious addons that come with the catholic church. Anyway i grew up catholic did 10 years as an altar boy and said probably 10,000 hail marys. Was 17 when i became uninterested in the catholic church. This does not mean i did not believe in the existence of God but i became frustrated with the ceremonial and repetitious nature of the catholic church. About 8 years later i met a seven day adventist at work and we talked a few times about God, he never pushed his SDA beliefs on me, I sensed he was a bit like me, a believer in God but not very religious in the sense of seeing his church as being in a direct line of authority from God. Anyway we got to talking about the bible and i mentioned i would like to get my hands on one for a read. The best thing about my experiences in the catholic church was the small readings from the bible that happened amongst all the ceremonies that P'd me off.

Anyway this guy got me a Bible NKJV for free and i read it. I read it all. By the time I finished it i understood the Way of salvation through the Messiah Jesus and had accepted Him as my Redeemer. As a catholic i had never known about The salvation of the Messiah Jesus. The catholic church was pretty much a mourning death cult focused on performing acts of penance to pay for sins to earn salvation. I came to understand through actually reading the Bible ( I had never done this as a catholic) that salvation was a gift given by God to those who acknowledged their need for it and trusted in God to provide it. It was not the bondage of working to pay for my own sins through penance and purgatory, making myself acceptable to God by earning eternity with Him.

So ummm that’s about it. Oh i did go through the "seeking the truth church" phase after i renounced catholicism but i found most churches had there own "stumbling stones". I came to understand that the "Body of Christ" was a spiritual body of believers guided by the Holy Spirit and not by some tax exempt harlot/church of the state/satan.

Ok i think you have got my basics. Might see you around some time.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[riverslivnwtr]

welcome Danny even though you were here before me, I think.

I am Pentecostal by experience..

My initial experience with God was a terrifying while under the influience of Colombian pot I was 21 and not very religious ; I was brought up in the Church but rebelled at the age of 13; blaming God for my grandmothers death...

three years later a Pentecostal approaches me while I am reading the bible at work..Don't ask why I was reading that's another story..anyway I experienced the Holy Ghost as described in the bible. in john 7:37 -39...

instantly upon receiving the Holy Spirit , I knew that I had found what every person on the earth is looking for.. When I would say that to people and they would ask what is that.. I would say Jesus and I noticed their answer, oh. they would say oh as if there was something else....and I realized that they had not known jesus in that way..but if you did...you would never leave...

[Fides et Veritas]

So, what's your story? How did you come to believe what you believe, and what is it exactly that you believe? This is mainly directed at Christians, because Christianity is what I'm most familiar with, but feel free to chime in otherwise if you'd like.

Hey Danny,

I am a bit late to the party as you are no longer new here and I am. So... I would say welcome but I am not sure if I should so... um... HI!!

So, as to what you were asking about.

I was raised in the Worldwide Church of God, under Herbert W. Armstrong. When he died in 1986, the guy who took over (Joseph W. Tkach) started unraveling the truths that Mr. Armstrong restored. The Church soon splintered and I found myself in one of the breakaways called the Philadelphia Church of God. It was pastored by Gerald R. Flurry.

I attended there from 1992 to 1997. I left the Church and went hog wild crazy. Unless you want the full sob story of what all I went through we'll suffice it to say that it was a Dark time in my life. After all the roller coasters, burnt bridges and bumps, bruises, scrapes and near death experiences, I met my wife. I have a beautiful son and daughter and I have a good job.

Now I am studying again to return to the Church that I should never have left.

That about sums it up.

Have any questions or particular debates that I can help you with I would be happy to assist.
Though I must warn you I also am aggressive. I can also reach a point where too many stupid opinions set me off (got in trouble once already). I always endeavor to be civil but once I reach my breaking point I generally just tell go off on you and walk away. I am trying to fix that but I seem to have a serious problem with stupidity.

Anyways.

Hope to see you around!

[gospelsaves]

Hi Danny,
I don't reply on here often. I just check it once in a while.
Let me tell you a little about me. I am a Christian. I consider myself to be very logical. I'm a software engineer by profession. I tend to see things very black/White....on/off...true/false. So I became a Christian after asking a lot of hard questions, and reading a lot in the bible....really just coming to my own conclusion. I think sometimes there is this myth that Christians are not logical, but that's not the case at all. I had some really hard questions for people, and nobody but people who believed in God were able to give me solid answers.

Here is my story...
With in just a few years almost everyone I knew and loved as my family died. I was raised by my grandparents, and in 91' my grandfather died, in 98' my grandmother died, in 02' my aunt died, in 04' my mom died, in 06' my uncle died. And I can keep going... I slipped into severe depression because I though surely there has got to be more to life than this. We can't just be here for a short part of time, then just die. There has got to be more to life than this! Most of those few people I mentioned died what I consider young, like well under the age of 75'.

I slipped into a severe depression for obvious reasons. Then I got a bad report from the doctor and thought I was about to die. And I literally remember being in a room crying over the fact that I knew IF I died there would be 2 people at my funeral. I had two people I was living with at the time because I had just moved, and pretty much everyone else that I was really close to was already dead! That would slip anyone into depression.

That got me to seeking to find out what in the world is the purpose of me being here. I remember praying something like "God if you are really real, you need to show me because I don't really see the purpose of living anymore, eveyone I know and love is dead. What do I have to live for? to work? to find some more people to love who could just die too?...what really is the point?"

I can tell you for a fact that everyone who didn't believe in God, didn't have a clue of what to say to me to make me feel any better. They would tell me things like "try to keep busy", "try to make new friends", "try to find new hobbies you like to do", or "try to go be with nature". I'm sorry to say, but you loose everyone you love, your health, and your finances...none of those things are going to make you feel any better.

If somebody looses everything what do you say to them? There are people who like me have had their entire family wiped out. What do you say to somebody like that? "Go make new friends"....I think, how could you look somone in the eye and say something that cruel? But people sure did it. For the most part people don't care about stuff. They care about their friends and family. Atheists, and Agnostics will say that. They care about their friends and family. So what happens when your entire family and friends get wiped out? It's happens, I'm living proof of it. In the bible, it happened to a guy named Job. People loose their entire family in natual disasters all the time. Nobody but people who believed in God, in Jesus were able to say anything to me that was of any comfort. They told me that this was not God's final plan for humanity. And gave me hope of seeing them again one day in Heaven. That told me that God loves me and even if everyone I loved died, he would always be with me and love me. That was comforting.

I look at people now who have everything taken from them in a natural disaster, and they don't care about stuff. Let's say you decide to do some humanitarian work and you go help in a country like Haiti where entire families are wiped out by that earthquake, and there is one sole survivor. And as a stranger from a foriegn land you are looking in the eyes of someone who lost their entire family and friends. And you've never seen so much pain in someones eyes in all your life. They are crying inconsolably. Everyone they know and care about is dead. And you don't believe in God, what do you say?

Being on the receiving end of that...people who didn't believe in God didn't have anything of comfort to say to me. You don't care about food, clothes, house, job...you just want to know how am I suppose to go on with everyone that I love gone.

[gnik]

I just realized that I didn't get around to posting anything of a story about myself yet.

Well, I have to say that My life so far has been in three staged.

I was born into a Christian house hold. My parents held the belief that if they told us what to believe, then we wouldn't have any reason to believe. They wanted my brother, sisters, and I to grow up as people who came to God of our own choice, and believe what we believe, not what people told us to. I went to church and everything was fine, but I really didn't know anything about right from wrong, although having a good understanding of God. I knew what was right ans wrong only by memorizing what I had learned from the bible.

When I got to about 12 years old, I started to look into different things a bit more. I don't remember really what happened, and some of it I can't post here, and some of it I wont post here. But I went through a hard time for the rest of my school years. I remember some situations where God proved himself to me. in ways that I can never discount, and nothing anyone can say will ever make me not believe. However shortly after that, I went through some really hard times. I ended up turning away from God. I still believed in him. but I hated him. I did some bad things during that time, but I don't know what. I eventually came back to God in late high school, but I didn't trust God for allowing me to do what I did.

After high school I started to look at what I could do with my life. I really felt like i needed out of the town I grew up in. I searched online for things that interested me. Before I really made any progress, I woke up one day and had lost my memory of what had happened before the previous Christmas. I only knew about 6 months of my life. I still had this need to get out though. With my memory loss, I didn't remember things that I had become accustomed to thinking. I lost my filters I had made to keep me from thinking about some things. Within a week, I found that I was gay. I found a website that had people I really got along with, and got the idea to travel around and meet one of them. I left home and went to several areas before returning just a month after I left. I had me a friend online when I was gone. he wanted to meet me in person, and lived near where i lived. we met up and I eventually moved in with him. After living there about half a year, I regained most of my memories from before I was 12. After I lived with this person I had met for a little over a year, I moved out. I moved in with someone that I had a crush on after talking to for only a month. We are going out now, and very happy. About half a year ago I regained a lot more of my memories about the time frame that I don't remember, and I realized that God had lead me down a path that was hard, but had made me a much better person. Without every hardship I had in my life, I wouldn't be the person I am now, and I am really happy with who I am, and where I am. But I never would have been open without both the hardship, and the memory loss.

I came to the conclusion that each hardship in my life is beyond my understanding, but lead me to a better place. So now when I go through hardships, I know that I will get through and will end up in a better place in this life.

So that's a bit about my back story. I hope to get to know you a bit better soon. (go make enough posts to do private messages )

[Goat]

Hi Danny,
I don't reply on here often. I just check it once in a while.
Let me tell you a little about me. I am a Christian. I consider myself to be very logical. I'm a software engineer by profession. I tend to see things very black/White....on/off...true/false. So I became a Christian after asking a lot of hard questions, and reading a lot in the bible....really just coming to my own conclusion. I think sometimes there is this myth that Christians are not logical, but that's not the case at all. I had some really hard questions for people, and nobody but people who believed in God were able to give me solid answers.

Ah.. this is a very interesting point.. .. you admit you have a very binary way of thinking. There is, however, things more than binary, and also.. just because someone what seems to be a definite answer, doesn't mean that answer is RIGHT. a 'solid answer' does not necessarily mean a 'correct answer'.

Among the techies, I noticed your pattern of thinking among software engineers and also mechanical and electrical engineers.

[gospelsaves]

Hi Danny,
I don't reply on here often. I just check it once in a while.
Let me tell you a little about me. I am a Christian. I consider myself to be very logical. I'm a software engineer by profession. I tend to see things very black/White....on/off...true/false. So I became a Christian after asking a lot of hard questions, and reading a lot in the bible....really just coming to my own conclusion. I think sometimes there is this myth that Christians are not logical, but that's not the case at all. I had some really hard questions for people, and nobody but people who believed in God were able to give me solid answers.

Ah.. this is a very interesting point.. .. you admit you have a very binary way of thinking. There is, however, things more than binary, and also.. just because someone what seems to be a definite answer, doesn't mean that answer is RIGHT. a 'solid answer' does not necessarily mean a 'correct answer'.

Among the techies, I noticed your pattern of thinking among software engineers and also mechanical and electrical engineers.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I didn't come to just believe because someone told me something. I did a lot of looking for myself.

Indeed you are right, a solid answer does not mean a correct answer, but I was going to keep searching until I found the the correct answer! Again that's my very logical brain. If there is a problem, then there is a solution. With me it started with a question, "Is there a problem with evil/wickedness (call it whatever you fancy) in this world?"

Again I see things very black and white. So FOR ME that was an easy answer, YES/True. So then what are the viable solutions? Begin to take a look at every philosophy, religion...what have you...and look at how they begin to first even identify the problem and then take a look at their solution. You can't solve something that you can't clearly identify.

There are some clear tangents on just identifying the problem. Most religions start out with stating that man is inherently good. Christianity starts out with man being inherently wicked. Follow both paths down the rabbit hole, and see where they lead you. We are through the looking glass indeed!

After searching, I had a hard time being convinced that man was inherently good. If we are that 'good' why aren't things getting better on this planet? If we have this inherent goodness in us the over the course of time, things should be looking a lot better here on Earth. Did people just go into movie theaters and shoot random people for no reason 40 years ago? Did kids go into classrooms and just decide to fire on them with guns for no reason 40 years ago, at the rate that it's happening today? Did you hear about people hijacking planes and crashing them into buildings 40 years ago? I don't know your age, but I don't recall any of that growing up. My parents and grandparents didn't reall any of that growing up.
We are not in Kansas anymore!

Well then the arguement came that MOST people are good. Some people are crazy, and do crazy things. Ok, I'll give you that. By HUMAN standards let's say most people are good. The problem with that is to destroy this entire planet, you don't need most people to be good....you need EVERYONE to be good. It only takes 1 crazy person with a nuke to detroy life as we know it. ONE....not 1 million, ONE! One crazy person to kill all life on the planet. So it does me no good whatsoever that MOST people are good. I need EVERYONE on this entire planet to be 'good'. I need an answer that causes everyone to be good.

Then the question comes up..... what is good? Well for starters I think destroying all life on the planet is NOT GOOD! BAD, VERY VERY BAD INEED!!!! Problem with that is one persons war is another persons revolution. One person can see taking over with world domination as being good ...for them! You can't even get humans to agree on what 'good' is. Those people who flew planes into buildings thought they were doing 'good'. So it was clear to me that goodness/correct behavior/acting right could not be defined by humanity. It had to come from a source outside humanity. Because you are never going to get ALL of humanity to agree on what is 'good'. And again you need EVERYONE to agree on this else one person who may not agree may decide to just eradicate everyone else. Please realize I'm summing this up...I didn't come to these conclusions overnight. But after searching for a long time, I couldn't conclude for myself that man had any inherent goodness. So then that lead me to eliminate any philosophy/religion that thinks that.

Christianity is the only one that starts with man's inherant badness....with laws goverened by God (not human stardards). You don't teach your children to lie, steal....they figure that out all own their own. You have to teach them NOT to lie, NOT to steal. There is that inherent badness.

This is just some of why I believe. For me it just makes the the most logical sense.
The bible says that the reason for the evil in the world is sin. Breaking God's commandments. My littly logical brain can understand that. There is a law, you break it, there are consequences. I can grasp that. If we are all inherently bad then we are all guilty. I understand that. Then I had to ask what would happen to humanity if everyone is guilty. God's answer was Jesus. Someone else pay the sin debt, someone else take that punishment. I could understand that.

That is why I believe.