God and the U.S. Political Parties

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micatala
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God and the U.S. Political Parties

Post #1

Post by micatala »

Those who follow the U.S. politcal scene are certainly more than aware of the role that religion and moral issues have been playing. The 'conventional wisdom' is that the Republicans are perceived as more in line with Christianity, at least according to them. Republicans have certainly played up the so-called moral issues of abortion and gay-marriage, arguably to their benefit.

The Democrats have begun to respond to this perception. In my home town in a very Red state, a billboard recently went up proclaiming something like "Jesus cares for the poor. So do we. Grassroots Democrats."

So, the question is, to put it a little baldly

Which party is really more Godly?

Obviously 'Godly' is a loaded word, and I am not going to help you all much be restricting the definition. In the U.S. context, it would often be interpreted with respect to traditional Christian notions of God, especially conservative notions. However, debaters should feel free to make their own cases for what they consider Godly and why. Evidence from a variety of religious traditions is appropriate.

Now, I certainly have my own opinion, but I will say at the outset that I think there is ample evidence that can be cited for both parties that they support 'Godly' policies, and also that there will be ample evidence that each party supports ungodly policies.

I will note that this thread is arising out of some discussions in the Pat Robertson thread. Here is a relevant portion that can serve as initial examples of how the Republicans (in the sense that the religious right and the Republican party are allies) act in un-Godly ways.
AlAyeti wrote:
Please list the blindness and hypocrisy of the religious Right?
micatala wrote: Although this is off-topic (since the topic is Pat Robertson), it is a legitimate question.

Item 1: This is an old one, but is courtesy of Pat himself, as well as Ronald Reagan. Both Pat and Ronald in the 1980's, although claiming to be supporters of democracy, instead supported the Contras in Nicaragua. The Contras were largely run by the CIA and ex-thugs of the former Somosa dictatorship. Somosa and company had ruled Nicaragua with a brutal fist for some 50 years prior to the Sandinista Revolution. Reagan had the audacity to call the Contras "the moral equivalent of our founding fathers." THis has got to be one of the most blatantly hypocritical political statements of all time.

Item 2: Many in the religious right have supported the war in Iraq, and have done so regardless of the rationale that has been offered for it. They have also done so despite the fact that a large number of innocent civilians have been killed. It is arguably hypocritical, given the teachings of Jesus, for a Christian of any stripe to support war.

Item 3: The religious right is all over homosexuals for deigning to suggest they should be allowed to get married. They cite Biblical passages like those in Romans. They conveniently forget that the passages mentioning homosexuality in the New Testament all (check me on this, but I believe it is ALL) mention a multitude of other sins. Most of the other sins are given little if any mention, and no one seems to be pushing for laws to regulate them, except murder. Is it not hypocritical to single out homosexuals for special legal treatment and not the other sins, especially when there is little if any Biblical justification for making religious beliefs have the force of civil law and apply it to believers and unbelievers alike?

Item 4: The religious right has a significant 'prosperity message' that tries to get believers to buy into the idea that 'rich is good'. Sadly lacking is Christ's teachings about the poor and the warnings against being rich. This preaching often amounts to little more than a way to extort money out of gullible believers.

Item 5: The religious right cries foul every time somebody takes issue with a government endorsement of Christian religion, conveniently ignoring that Christianity is the dominant religion in the U.S. and that Christianity deserves no more special legal protection than any other religion.

Item 6: Many in the religious right demonize their fellow believers who do not happen to share their political views. This is contrary to scriptural teaching as presented, for example, in Romans Chapter 14. "Who are you to judge another man's servant, to his own master he stands or falls?" When Christians of whatever stripe try to deny the Christianity of fellow believers simply because they believe evolution is a perfectly reasonable scientific theory, or because they vote democratic, or because they don't believe we are truly in the 'end times', they are taking unto themselves judgments that only God has the purview to make.
Now, obviously there is a lot of potential here for over-generalization, and I have even engaged in some of that in the above comments regarding the 'religious right'. There is certainly great diversity within the political parties and their supporters including groups like the 'religious right.' I would simply ask that we be aware of this as we proceed.

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Post #2

Post by AlAyeti »

Somewhat dishonest to bring up my nickname and not post my rebuttals to the list you used.

I would appreciate you doing so.

///

Liberalism did not have to mean sexual promiscuity and sexual licentiousness. Both things that do not find license in the Bible. And I'll bring up stealing as well. Yet, you have Democrats supporting the wholesale slaughter of human beings for convenience, the death of family and marriage and the insanity of taxing good people to pay for the crack habits of degenerates.

Ok let's start the fun.

The "right wing" whatever that "is," seems to want to be far more accurate towards the Bible than Democrats.

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Post #3

Post by micatala »

AlAyeti wrote:Somewhat dishonest to bring up my nickname and not post my rebuttals to the list you used.
My apologies. Feel free to repost them in this thread.

As you say, let's start the fun.
Liberalism did not have to mean sexual promiscuity and sexual licentiousness.
I don't see that it does. Again, if you feel sexual promiscuity and licentiousness are unGodly, say why, and then provide evidence of actual policies the demonstrably promote it. Liberalism is a fuzzy term, so we may want to try to agree on exactly what we're talking about.

I know we may be covering some ground gone over in other threads, but this thread can be a place to bring the issues related to the parties together. However, I will continue to insist that actual evidence be provided and that it be linked with the claims made.

Yet, you have Democrats supporting the wholesale slaughter of human beings for convenience,


Certainly abortion is a central political issue. At the risk of sounding Kerry-esque, I will try to take a somewhat nuanced position.

I agree that the prevalence of abortion in the U.S. is not a good thing, and speaks badly of our society. I do see abortion as violence. I don't see it as murder, and I don't agree that all abortions are done simply for convenience. This accusation I think trivializes the choice being made. Anyone who has had kids knows the committment is way more than an 'inconvenience.'

On the other hand, I do know of people who have had abortions because they have not been acting in a responsible manner with regards to their sexual activities and see abortion as an easy way to avoid the consequences of their irresponsibility. What percentage of abortions would fit into this category I have no idea.

Here is the official Democratic Pary position on abortion as of 1996.
"Choice. The Democratic Party stands behind the right of every woman to choose, consistent with Roe v. Wade, and regardless of ability to pay. President Clinton took executive action to make sure that the right to make such decisions is protected for all Americans. Over the last four years, we have taken action to end the gag rule and ensure safety at family planning and women's health clinics. We believe it is a fundamental constitutional liberty that individual Americans -- not government -- can best take responsibility for making the most difficult and intensely personal decisions regarding reproduction.

The Democratic Party is a party of inclusion. We respect the individual conscience of each American on this difficult issue, and we welcome all our members to participate at every level of our party.

Our goal is to make abortion less necessary and more rare, not more difficult and more dangerous. We support contraceptive research, family planning, comprehensive family life education, and policies that support healthy childbearing. For four years in a row, we have increased support for family planning. The abortion rate is dropping. Now we must continue to support efforts to reduce unintended pregnancies, and we call on all Americans to take personal responsibility to meet this important goal."

Source: 1996 Democratic National Platform
Certainly one could not characterize this position as promoting the wholesale slaughter of human beings for convenience sake.

Here is what wikipedia has for the current position.
Choice/Abortion: The Democrats believe that privacy is a constitutional right under the 14th Amendment. Thus as a matter of privacy and gender equality, women should be allowed to control their fertility and child bearing, including access to termination of pregnancy, in accordance with Roe v. Wade. This includes access under Roe v. Wade to surgical termination of pregnancy. Many Democratic politicians include in this right practical access to abortion through government subsidies. In September 1993 Congress rewrote the Hyde Amendment to allow for federal funding of abortions. (NAF Abortion Facts) Their proposal (in 2000 and 2004) for public policy on termination of pregnancy is for abortion to be "safe, legal and rare" - namely, keeping it legal by rejecting laws that include governmental interference in any individual matter, and reducing the number performed by promoting both knowledge of reproduction and incentives for adoption. However, in the platform adopted in 2000, the Democrats stated a respectful inclusiveness of Democrats who feel differently about the issue. (See Democrats for Life.) It should be noted that not all Democratic party members are pro-choice; Democratic Senate minority leader Harry Reid, the party's ranking Congressional leader, is anti-abortion. A stand on abortion rights is sometimes more influenced by religious or personal beliefs than by political party preference.
Again, Democrats are promoting 'choice' and the right to privacy over protection of the unborn. They are also, it seems, not taking a doctrinaire position on abortion.

Essentially, the Democrats position, vis-a-vis this thread, is to say that each individual decision to have an abortion or not must be judged Godly or un-Godly on its own merits. Certainly, one could argue that a person who has had multiple abortions because they are being promiscuous and not using birth control is acting in an un-Godly fashion. They are being selfish, and they are not treating even themselves with appropriate respect as a creation of God.


On the other hand, a woman who was in what she believed to be a committed relationship and then finds herself abandoned upon becoming pregnant, and who does not in her judgment have the resources (material, emotional, etc.) to be a single mother has a difficult choice. Is it more Godly to bring the child into the world if it means that child and the mother will have a miserable existence? This is not a clear-cut call in my book. I don't see that it would be a good thing to have government making this call for everybody.

Now, all this begs the question whether the Democratic Party actual acts in such a way as to promote their stated policy. I am certainly open to evidence that they do or do not.
AlAyeti wrote:the death of family and marriage


Sorry. If you are referring to gay marriage, this is baloney in my book. I have seen no credible evidence that areas where gay marriage exists have seen the death of family and marriage.
AlAyeti wrote:and the insanity of taxing good people to pay for the crack habits of degenerates.
Uhh. WHere is this happening and in what way are Democrats promoting this? Can you tell us how much tax money is going towards this and where?

AlAyeti wrote:The "right wing" whatever that "is," seems to want to be far more accurate towards the Bible than Democrats.
Certainly this is the perception of many conservatives, and I think a case can be made that the Republicans and their allies certainly promote some Biblical principles more than the Democrats do. However, as noted in the OP, I think they ignore other Biblical principles.

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Post #4

Post by juliod »

I think I have only one point to add to this thread.

I don't recognize a difference between the Democrats and Republicans. In the recent presidential campaign, Kerry advocated policies essentially identical to Bush on all major issues.

But, when I was a christian, it was my understanding that Jesus would not have had an opinion on political parties. Politics, being wordly, is one of the things rendered unto Ceasar.

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Post #5

Post by AlAyeti »

There is no compatibilty between our ideas of being a Christian.

If you believe that"terminating a pregnacy" is not murder than there is no room for addressing this in a Christian sense. If you do not think that the promotion of abortion on demand, or for convenience, is not promoting pure evil, in a Christian sense, than there is no way to find common ground. Sure, evil and perverse people can kill their children in America, but the label of murder is Biblical.

Liberalism has so numbed your mind to truth that I am on one side of a chasm and you on the other.

Liberalism is licentiousness. The "do as you will," self-gratifying behavior was spring onto modern society by what can only be termed as Liberalism, and indeed finds definitive accuracy in the term Neo-Liberalism.

Family IS a father and a mother raising their own children. That that has now found any form any kind of peopel want to redefine it, cannot find a validating voice from the Bible.

The proof is the laws championed by the Democrat Party.

They know all too well that abortion is murder. They will not even show a real abortion in the senate chambers. Why not?

Homosexuality is no more a protected culture and class than legalizing defecting on car hoods.

It is a behavior.

Liberalism is a behavior too.
I don't see that it does. Again, if you feel sexual promiscuity and licentiousness are unGodly, say why, and then provide evidence of actual policies the demonstrably promote it. Liberalism is a fuzzy term, so we may want to try to agree on exactly what we're talking about.
Jesus was clear on this. In fact He was extremely conservative about what promiscuity was and what to call it. No Liberal even agrees that adultery is a classifying behavior, let alone justing thinking about as being wrong.

The OT was clear on this. Liberal is a term for people that do not believe in morality as a set of decent behavior guideleines.

Teaching the use of condoms or abstinence should come complete with morality. But that word has been declassified by the Democrats as well.

Children need role models. Democrats legalize non-parental notification laws. I know that cannot be OK with the God of the Bible.

Liberalism does mean sexual promiscuity by the very way they want it taught. Abstinence is a common by-product of morality. But, teaching morality is a hate crime now.
I agree that the prevalence of abortion in the U.S. is not a good thing, and speaks badly of our society. I do see abortion as violence. I don't see it as murder, and I don't agree that all abortions are done simply for convenience. This accusation I think trivializes the choice being made. Anyone who has had kids knows the committment is way more than an 'inconvenience.'

On the other hand, I do know of people who have had abortions because they have not been acting in a responsible manner with regards to their sexual activities and see abortion as an easy way to avoid the consequences of their irresponsibility. What percentage of abortions would fit into this category I have no idea.
The prevalence of abortion only speaks badly on Liberals and Democrats that know what they did. The percentages of abortions done for critical life-threatening reasons? 45-million abortions? And counting? I ONLY know people that have had abortions for birth control reasons. I hope the repent.

The wholesale slaughter of human babies is a fact of the Democrat platform. That is the truth. Certainly there is no Biblical support for a womans right to choose to kill her unborn child unless there are garve reasons to do so. Kathy being dumped by Johnny is not a reason to kill an unborn human being. Or, Kathy not knowing who the real father is.

The ONLY "choice" is good moral behavior being championed by anyone in public office. Or hold people responsible for their actions and not their children born or unborn.

The family is not open for redefintion Biblically.
Sorry. If you are referring to gay marriage, this is baloney in my book. I have seen no credible evidence that areas where gay marriage exists have seen the death of family and marriage.
I'm sorry that a person feels they are homosexual. This defintion that they apply to themselves, negates their position as mother and father. Children are the result of male/female sexual interactions. "Family" is immutable. But not to a Liberal. Legalizing same-sex marriage does indeed alter the definition of family until society rights the wrong. Which it will in time if and when the unthinkable becomes a sad fact.

Family, certainly is defined by God and by nature. Natures God even.

Liberals are doing what a Christian cannot support. But, when did they ever care about Christians?

Taxation is another ungodly thing that Democrats force on good people. Welfare and social programs are fair to a point. But the permisivseness that is the foundation of Liberalism, again, throws out morality for votes.

Democrats want high taxation and they will decide what and who gets the money. Some communities that are heavily Democrat, are the most violent and indecent in the US.

That's debatable?

AlAyeti wrote:
The "right wing" whatever that "is," seems to want to be far more accurate towards the Bible than Democrats.

Certainly this is the perception of many conservatives, and I think a case can be made that the Republicans and their allies certainly promote some Biblical principles more than the Democrats do. However, as noted in the OP, I think they ignore other Biblical principles.
Republicans need a little soul searching too, but, Democrats do not want to hold people accountable for their behavior. Republicans have this as a mantra that they live by.

The Bible agrees with this point of view totally.

Liberals have become an example of the kind of people listed in the time of Noah, the Tower of Babel and Sodom and Gomorrah.

In their haughtiness, they actually do harm to the poor and needy, and certainly they scoff at God and His messengers.

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Post #6

Post by juliod »

If you believe that"terminating a pregnacy" is not murder than there is no room for addressing this in a Christian sense.
Funny thing is, the word "abortion" doesn't even appear in the bible. It isn't even discussed.

Causing a misscarriage, a similar thing, is punished by only a fine imposed by the husdand. There is no punishment for causing a miscarriage iin an unmarried woman.

Frequently in the OT god kills children, and in Hosea 13 he rips open the bellies of pregnant women.

So the biblical case against abortion is essentially zero.
The proof is the laws championed by the Democrat Party.

They know all too well that abortion is murder.
Another funny thing is that while the republicans control the House, Senate, Presidency and Supreme Court, they have not even attempted to ban abortion.

Do you suppose your views on abortion are being manipulated for partisan political gain?

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Post #7

Post by micatala »

juliod wrote:I don't recognize a difference between the Democrats and Republicans. In the recent presidential campaign, Kerry advocated policies essentially identical to Bush on all major issues.
I don't know if I would agree with the last statement, but I would agree that there is less difference between the policies of the two parties than one would think based on the intensity with which they sometimes oppose one another. Obviously (at least in my view) a lot of just has to do with who gets more power, not with the policies that one will promote with that power.
But, when I was a christian, it was my understanding that Jesus would not have had an opinion on political parties. Politics, being wordly, is one of the things rendered unto Ceasar.
THis is a good point. I don't mean to imply by my somewhat controversial OP that God is really taking sides or that one party is clearly more Godly than the other. Mostly, I want to see what cases people will make either way, and whether it is possible to make those cases at least somewhat objectively.


juliod wrote:Causing a misscarriage, a similar thing, is punished by only a fine imposed by the husdand. There is no punishment for causing a miscarriage iin an unmarried woman.
If I recall correctly, this passage is in Exodus. I saw a debate on this subject on the "Faith Under Fire" program that runs on the PAX network here in the U.S. a few months ago(PAX is sort of Christian/family network). One debater was making this same point; that there is a biblical basis for considering the ending of a pregnancy as less than 'murder,' based on the difference in the punishments proscribed in jewish law for murder versus ending a pregnancy.

At the very least, I think it does mean that the Bible is ambiguous on abortion.

This is not unlike what has happened with respect to other 'legally sanctioned killings', as for example in war. On the one hand, one could interpret 'Thou Shalt not Kill' as outlawing all taking of human life by other humans. This would certainly include all killing in war, murder, the death penalty, and even killing in self-defense. It could also apply to abortion IF one categorizes unborn life as equivalent to 'born life.' Obviously this big IF is what a lot of the current debate is about.

On the other hand, we allow soldiers to kill in war, most countries allow killing in self-defense, and many governments allow the death penalty. I think one can find precedent for all of these in the Bible, and so it appears the Bible is ambiguous with respect to these 'killings' as well.

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Post #8

Post by AlAyeti »

Another funny thing is that while the republicans control the House, Senate, Presidency and Supreme Court, they have not even attempted to ban abortion.

Do you suppose your views on abortion are being manipulated for partisan political gain?
I am not a Republican. I can never be a Democrat. I do find agreement with you on something. I beleive that Christians are being manipulated by the GOP. Democrats are just more open in displaying their hatred of Bible-believing Christians.

You rip open the stomach of a woman and terminate her pregnancy. I'm thinking that you will see the horror of abortion just the same as the way you condemn God's instructions to the Israelites.

Don't be a hypocrite.

Your right again on abortion not existing in the Bible. But as you have clearly pointed out . . . murder does exist.

Which political party fights to keep abortion legal?

The Republicans are just obeying the law.

Is it a good law to murder those children inside of those stomachs?

It seems clear that you have judged the issue rightly.

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Post #9

Post by Chimp »

Is it a good law to murder those children inside of those stomachs?
I think that's called digestion.

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Post #10

Post by juliod »

I am not a Republican. I can never be a Democrat.
Why not, their policies are identical? Both parties support the status quo on abortion. The republicans could ban abortion in a flash, but don't. Both parties wish it to remain legal.

BTW, you might not be a republican, but you are certainly acting as their apologist on this web site.
I'm thinking that you will see the horror of abortion just the same as the way you condemn God's instructions to the Israelites.
Those weren't "instructions". In Hosea it was YHWH himself who performed the abortions. Given that, why would a "bible-believing" christian think that abortion is immoral?
Your right again on abortion not existing in the Bible. But as you have clearly pointed out . . . murder does exist.
And abortion is clearly not murder. The penalty was a fine and then only if demanded by the husband. In the KJV, the word used for fetus is "fruit".

And the bible frequently refers to "the breath of life" and often equates life with breathing. In other words, biblically speaking, life begins at birth.

And the bible sometimes refers to the existance of peope before they are "formed" in the womb. In other words, biblically speaking, the soul is immortal and not harmed by abortion.

I fail to understand why you think abortion is wrong.

DanZ

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