The Gay agenda

[lastcallhall]

This is an article from Jim Daly on Foxnews and it looks like what a few of us conservative christians believe is the gay agenda moving forward to get marriage passed.

I am, naturally, personally opposed to the legalization of same-sex marriage for the simple but profound reason that it violates and contradicts the sacred text of the Bible, which I believe to be true and inspired. But on what basis should I expect people who dont believe as I do to likewise oppose same-sex marriage?

On the basis of logic, reason, common sense and the fact that preservation of traditional marriage is in the best interest of the common good, as evidenced by any number of factors, including reams of social science data and thousands of years of history.

Any discussion on the definition of marriage incites strong emotional reaction. And those of us within the orthodox Christian community understand that many in the culture see this issue very differently, and hold to very passionate views on the subject. We understand that on this matter, in some circles, that never the twain shall meet. Nevertheless, this difference of opinion does not preclude us the privilege of championing a principle we hold dear, especially since its our Christian faith that motivates us to support and defend what we believe to be Gods blueprint for human relationship. In the last half-century, progressives have exercised their own rights of cultural engagement, aggressively championing sweeping cultural changes on numerous levels. Although we may disagree with them, we certainly dont begrudge them the right to engage the process. But in this pursuit to redefine marriage, wouldnt it make sense to consider the outcomes of prior social reengineering efforts?

In the late 1960s, no-fault divorce promised to simplify, streamline and decrease the contentiousness surrounding marital breakup. Instead, it only encouraged struggling spouses to throw in the towel. Fathers abandoned their families in droves. Poverty levels skyrocketed. Prison populations increased at dramatic levels, a consequence of kids now growing up without a father in the home.

A few years later, in 1973, the Supreme Court legalized abortion in all 50 states. Supporters heralded a new era of responsibility, where every child would be a wanted child. Tragically, over 48 million babies have now been aborted and the beauty of life has been cheapened as a result, while child abuse has skyrocketed.

The expansion of welfare promised to alleviate human suffering. While in some ways noble in intent, it disincentivized work, undermined the family unit and created a perpetual cycle of dependency and poverty. Fathers were no longer needed to be an integral part of the family.

Cohabitation is yet another experiment which promised to liberate couples from the burden of marriage. The number of couples living together outside of marriage has increased ten-fold between 1960 and 2000. Over 12 million unmarried partners now live together in the United States. The result? Cohabitation not only decreases a persons appetite for marriage, it also increases the risk of divorce, should the couple ever tie the knot.

Further, a home with two unmarried partners has proven to be the most dangerous place for children in the U.S. Children who live with their mother and boyfriend are 11 times more likely to be sexually, physically, or emotionally abused than children living with their married biological parents.

In each example of social reengineering Ive noted, progressives promised good things. Sadly, the exact opposite has happened. However well-meaning the motivation, reengineering what God has designed is not only unwise, but radical and dangerous, too.

Without evidence of success to which to point, supporters of these ill-fated ventures are left with but one choice: If you cant change unfavorable outcomes, you change the minds of people as to what is considered favorable and good.

Here lies the last great frontier and the last gasp for those determined to re-engineer marriage. Those committed to this form of radicalism have systematically broken down the cultural barrier to same sex marriage by desensitizing people on the issue, stigmatizing those who oppose the movement and potentially criminalizing anyone who stands in opposition to them. The irony in our cultural discussion currently, is if you support traditional marriage, you are the one perceived by the cultural elite to be the radical.

Consider the case of a New Mexico couple who own and operate a photography business. When they kindly refused to shoot a lesbian marriage ceremony, they were summarily brought up on human rights violations by the New Mexico Human Rights Commission. They were fined for not accepting the job. While on the other hand, Christian organizations are now being singled out and suppliers are threatening to no longer supply them with critical support functions like computer technology because of their stand in opposition to same-sex marriage. Those in favor of same-sex marriage do not see the contradiction in these two examples. One group must perform the services and is fined for not doing so (in the name of human rights); the other is allowed to default on their contract because of alleged bigoted behavior on the part of the religious organization (with no regard for religious expression).

If religious liberty is lost in America, we will cease to be the nation our Founders intended us to be. Our rights will no longer be derived from God but from man, and therefore, dangerously beholden to political despots. I dont think Thomas Jefferson intended that to be the outcome for our great nation when he wrote the famous Danbury Baptist Church letter which mentioned the separation of church and state. Contrary to conventional wisdom, President Jefferson was expressing a concern that the church needed to be protected from the state, not the state from the church. It appears his fears are now being realized.

Jim Daly is president and host of "Focus on the Family."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/ ... z1NJdkc5AN


The questions I have for debate are:

1. Is what happened to the New Mexico couple proof that gay marriage will threaten christians and the church from living our faith?

2. If gay marriage is legal in the entire US would churches be forced to recognize gay couples and be forced to hire gay people to positions even if that would be against our beliefs?

[lastcallhall]

Again, why should a particular religious view of morality be made into law in a country that recognizes religious freedom?

If the majority votes for something it becomes law, and many people will vote their faith

And I will reiterate, the passage you cite here cannot, in context, be considered to apply to all people everywhere and at all times. Paul is talking about idolaters, and he is addressing a particular people (the Romans) at a particular time. To apply this even only to Christians today is a huge, huge stretch.

I do not think it is a big stretch to apply it to today, in fact you would think it was written last week.

[lastcallhall]

Yes, the argument that all humans are equal is better than the one you are proposing. You want your kids to see "your" truth. You cannot show that your truth is the truth. There was a time when I believed your truth and actually argued your same arguments (about abortion and homosexuality).

I can only hope you come back to Jesus and the faith.

My church use to tell me that if we were not being persecuted, we were not being good christians. That is a reason in itself for a person to be on this site.

Well that's not me, my goal is one person finds Jesus (I know it might be a pipe dream)

[micatala]

Again, why should a particular religious view of morality be made into law in a country that recognizes religious freedom?

If the majority votes for something it becomes law, and many people will vote their faith

You continue to ignore the distinction between people voting for something and something becoming law. You are free to vote how you wish.

However, if the majority passed a law the banned the production or consumption of shellfish because it went against the majorities religious sensibilities, taht would be unconstitutional.


Thus, you notion of sin should be irrelevant to the law, just as anyone else's notion of sin.

And I will reiterate, the passage you cite here cannot, in context, be considered to apply to all people everywhere and at all times. Paul is talking about idolaters, and he is addressing a particular people (the Romans) at a particular time. To apply this even only to Christians today is a huge, huge stretch.

I do not think it is a big stretch to apply it to today, in fact you would think it was written last week.

How many people today, or last week, worship graven images or animals? How many people today were alive when Paul wrote the letter to the Romans.

You are simply reading a lot into the passage so as to apply it to people today. The descriptions in Romans I simply do not apply to people today. They do not even apply to all people in Paul's time.

[Autodidact]

1. This is what I mean by demonstrating your prejudice for all to see.
2. It is perfectly o.k. to have two mommies. If you think it's not, please show us why.

God set us up to be raised by a mother and a father.

I think what you mean is, you believe that God set us up this way. You are entitled to your belief; that does not make it fact.

There are many studies that show the negative effects of a fatherless home.

There is not a single study that shows that children with two moms do worse than children with a mom and a dad. If there is, please cite it. If you can't, please stop besmirching other parents.

There are things a mother can teach a child and things a father can. My wife can show our girls how to put on makeup, I can't.

None of which has any impact on how well your children will do. What matters is whether they get good parenting. Two lesbians provide AT LEAST as good parenting as two heterosexuals, and often better. You may not like this fact, but that does not make it any less true.

3. How do you think public school teachers should treat children with two mommies? Should they "preach" at them that their families are wrong and going to hell?

Leave the subject alone, do not speak for it or against it.

And if it comes up, as if the family is involved in the school, as it should be?

I thought so. Your mind is closed on the subject. Again, that's your right. However, if you state that children in same-sex families do worse than in heterosexual families, you are lying.

Not even close what studies do you have and who did them? I can list several done by Focus on the Family but you would reject those.

Focus on the Family, a deliberately anti-gay group, has never studied lesbian families. Not once. If you can cite such a study--a study of lesbian families, please do so. If you can't, stop spreading slander against an innocent group of people; it's wrong. Thank you.

It is not true, and there are NO studies that show that it is true. None. Zero. Zilch. No matter who paid for them.

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles/ ... yAdopt.php

Just as I said. Not a single study comparing lesbian families to heterosexual families. Until you find a study that shows that heterosexual families do a better job raising children than lesbian families*, you should stop stating that they do; it is not honest.

*You can't, because there aren't any. There aren't any, because it's not true. The fact is that children of lesbian families turn out AT LEAST AS WELL as children of heterosexual families.

Telling lies about other people isn't nice. Didn't anyone ever teach you that?

[Autodidact]

You know that there are thousands of gay Christians, right? That most gay Americans, like most straight Americans, are Christian?

Anyone can call themselves whatever they wish but it may not make it so

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
New King James Version (NKJV)

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Are you saying that they are not Christians? Is that up to you to decide? Is it common for non-Christians to say they're Christian?

[Autodidact]

That's lovely. Is your faith and influence so weak that you believe your children can get corrupted by a balanced and accurate education? That seems to be a hypothetical question, but I am still trying to wrap my head around the fact that your instilled moral framework is akin to a house of cards.

No my faith is strong to the point of death, the morals I teach my kids are from the Bible and will always come from the Bible. I am not afraid of anyone but I will not let them sit and listen to propaganda and lies put forth by the school.

that is your perfect right. It not your right to make that decision for my children.

You sir, are a minority. For you and people who feel similarly to discriminate against another minority is going to set a dangerous precedent for the future. I hope that as the decades pass your religious views are treated with more sympathy and understanding than you treat those you see as having a lifestyle that is counter to your fringe religious views.

We are a christian nation and as long as we have Bible believing christians we will oppose things like this whether you feel it is ok or not. I do not seek approval from the world.

No, we are a secular nation. You may be more comfortable living in a theocracy.

I have read and debated on this site and I find evolution to be totally false.

OT. You are wrong, but this is not the thread to debate it.

It has become a proven fact (as well as a theory) due to insurmountable evidence in its favor. What proof do you require (define 'proof' for you)? We have all sorts. DNA evidence, experimental observations, fossil records... the list is quite sizeable and far in excess of the proof you base your faith upon. If you deny evolution then you are not only wanting to rewrite history, but you also must imagine a global conspiracy created by liberals?

If there is sooo much proof that an ant became an elephant why is there such a large group that believe in God still?

You don't seem to have any idea what the Theory of Evolution is, but I would be happy to teach you--in a thread on that subject.

Also, I challenge you to show that a large majority of the world population does not accept the Theory of Evolution. Although this gives me oppurtinity to introduce you to yet ANOTHER logical fallacy that you gleefully commit, called the Appeal to Popularity.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie ... arity.html

You see, even if 99.999% of the world believed as you did, it wouldn't matter one whit to the validity of the theory of evolution.

I agree I could care less what the majority thinks only what God does. Evolution is NOT a fact, you can keep saying it and it still will not be true.

Actually, it is, but that is not the subject of this thread.

Genesis 1
The History of Creation
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

This is the beginning and end for me

I already did? Your children will have an extremely difficult time going into any science related field (biology, geology, physics, etc.) as they are not getting the accurate basic education.

Who cares? That is a good thing to not be around secular God hating people all day, it would drag you down.

They also are getting a poor history education, obviously, so that limits their options in those related fields. In fact, I would hazard a guess that many colleges will be leery of their applications seeing as how they attended private Christian schools where Creationism is (I assume) taught as factual and science courses are severely lacking in accuracy.

Problem solved Liberty University, Bob Jones University, many Bible colleges will do.

Additionally, if any of your children discovers that they are, in fact, homosexuals, it will probably be a crippling life long emotional issue for them. Although I am sure you would not see it that way.

Really? Won't happen.

If you deny evolution, believe in a 100% literal interpretation of the bible, and in a gay/liberal worldwide conspiracy, I propose that you do not live in the 'real world' already. However, what I meant with the comment, is that if you raise your child in a bubble, they will be under prepared for life outside of the bubble.

And I think you live in darkness so who is to say, I believe my world is God's view and his is the only one that matters.

You are entitled to believe that. You are not entitled to impose your view on me.

[Deadclown]

No my faith is strong to the point of death, the morals I teach my kids are from the Bible and will always come from the Bible. I am not afraid of anyone but I will not let them sit and listen to propaganda and lies put forth by the school.

There you go again. You are making a lot of assumptions, and also your kids aren't at risk in their bubble.

We are a christian nation and as long as we have Bible believing christians we will oppose things like this whether you feel it is ok or not. I do not seek approval from the world.

I still hope you won't be oppressed when the day comes, like you and yours think it is appropriate to oppress others.

I have read and debated on this site and I find evolution to be totally false.

Why? Do you even understand it?

If there is sooo much proof that an ant became an elephant why is there such a large group that believe in God still?

Believing in evolution doesn't make you an atheist. =) Not only are you making completely ignorant statements (that show you don't have a clue how evolution truly functions) you still make Appeals to Popularity. Are you even bothering to read anything I write before you respond?

I agree I could care less what the majority thinks only what God does. Evolution is NOT a fact, you can keep saying it and it still will not be true.

Genesis 1
The History of Creation
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

This is the beginning and end for me

You can quote your unsubstantiated folklore all you like lastcallhall, but it won't change a darn thing about the way things are. There is ignorance, and then there is willful ignorance.

Who cares? That is a good thing to not be around secular God hating people all day, it would drag you down.

You do realize you can be a Christian Scientist don't you?

Problem solved Liberty University, Bob Jones University, many Bible colleges will do.

Maybe you do not understand the concept of 'limited options'. I can write 'degree' on a roll of toilet paper and declare myself a college graduate, if I want. However, if I do not attend a respected accredited university, my career options would be severely limited. You for example are limiting your children to potential educations at universities that do not give them a great number of career options (and I would assume are of questionable accreditation) or will limit their job placement to a grand degree. Most parents want their kids to go wherever they can manage.

Really? Won't happen.

Oh? It seems to happen to famous fundamentalist conservatives all the time? Every couple of months I hear about one guy or another getting caught soliciting sexual favors from a male prostitute. Your children would obviously be deathly afraid of discussing the matter with you, so how do you know they aren't just bottling their real feelings up inside?

http://www.ranker.com/list/top-10-anti- ... gay/joanne

And I think you live in darkness so who is to say, I believe my world is God's view and his is the only one that matters.

You do realize your argument at this point is essentialy, 'I am right, you are wrong (and dark), so nyah'?

I have not but who is not around sin? My kids will see it all the time. My goal is to instill in them God's word so they know what sin is. They can stay away from it. Everybody will and does sin and my kids are no different but they need to know what to look out for.

That point essentially zoomed right over your head, didn't it? You have continually stuck by a position of censorship to 'protect your children' from exposure to knowledge. In the book the Monk knew all about sin in theory. He read the bible. He even preached about it. If you keep them completely closeted away from it, they will have no ability to deal with the real world thing. I can read all I want about engines, but that doesn't mean I can fix a car.

Snipped the Islam 'Article'

You know, lastcallhall, when you present this sort of thing, the appropriate thing to do is cite your sources. What am I supposed to do here? Just take your word for it? Where are you getting this information from? A fair and unbiased news source?

I hope this is proof for you and there is more. Now am I so crazy with my concerns about homosexuality and what they will teach?

It's not proof until you actually say where the heck you are getting it from. As far as I know, you just made this up on the spot or it is coming from a propaganda group that is twisting the facts to support your interests. Of course, even if it did really happen and isn't some sort of overblown case of poor reporting, it still does not justify your irrational fears. That seems to me to be a good educational experience. Do you think any of the kids converted to Islam because of it? Really?!

Most on this site think I am nuts and I'm ok with that. But I have changed an opinion of mine because of this site so I do have an open mind if I am wrong.

I have not seen a lot of rational arguments or opinions out of you. I have never seen you change an opinion, but maybe I missed something.

I think your comments speak for themselves, you do sound conservative.

No need to say, it is not hard to tell

I sound Conservative now, or is that a typo? Please, describe to me my political affiliations and why. Since you apparently possess psychic powers that operate over the internet. Presently because I am arguing with you, you want to label me as a liberal. Does that allow you to demonize me lastcallhall? You appear to demonize liberals in general as being sinful conspiracy running bogeymen, so I can see how that would be an appealing thing for you to do to me.

Not to long ago a few hundred scientists signed a paper stating global warming is crap, are they all wrong?

I see a much smaller list than 100s on that 'Wikipedia' article you cite. For future reference, Wiki isn't the best resource in and of itself. Maybe you were referencing Sen. James M. Inhofe's list? You see, when you are unspecific, it is hard for me to know what the heck you are talking about.

As far as the few quotes made by scientists on a wikipedia page, I would hope that you would be able to recognize that it is hardly damning evidence in comparison to a scientific majority.

The first group of people on the page are just hesitant to make conclusions based off a specific piece of evidence. The second group doesn't dispute it happening, just that it is man-made. The third say that they don't know what is causing it. The fourth try to point at it saying that the negative consequences will be minor. And the rest are... dead.

You are really going to have to do better than that if you are going to speak out against the scientific majority on anything, I am afraid.

Here is a page explaining the issues and providing links to the global scientific organizations supporting the idea.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/global- ... sensus.htm
http://www.post-carbon-living.com/TTHW/ ... sensus.pdf

As for our causing it...
http://www.skepticalscience.com/its-not-us.htm
http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/mandias/glo ... ic_cooling

Anything else or can we move on from this distraction? If you want to keep arguing it, please start a thread in Science and Religion and I'll give you even more evidence.

That just makes that minor minority horribly and sadly ignorant. Evolution has been proved. Proved time and time again for the last century. People who say that it can't be proven are just in denial or have no reasonable idea of what proof is. Please? Challenge me? Ask me for some evidence that will be convincing to you? If it is written down by desert nomads it is unquestionable fact, to you, I might add.

Prove there is no God to start.

That's quite a strawman. Evolution can theoretically exist with 'God' after all. The Catholic Church thinks so. Proponents of Intelligent Design sure think so. Why don't we start one step at a time lastcallhall, and focus on evolution minus religion? We don't have to talk about religion at all. Please explain the following to me so I can gauge your rough understanding of evolution?
1) Describe the Theory of Evolution (how it operates).
2) Explain Natural Selection.
3) Explain Random Mutation.

I assume since you disagree with the theory, that you have studied it enough to understand it. So this should be a relatively simple exercise for you, right?

Really though, we should cover this in another thread since it don't belong here except to demonstrate your repeated lack of rational support for your statements.

I have provided a study in the response above

Ah yes, your 'study'. I was hoping you would reference it here so I wouldn't have to start a whole new conversation dealing with it directly.

Lastcallhall, do you know what a good source of information is?

I am going to hazard the guess that the answer is no. I did some digging on the author of your article, Timothy J. Dailey, PhD. Let's cover how he got that fancy title first off. He got his Bachelors from Moody Bible Institute (Christian Ministry School) in Bible/Theology. He got his Masters from Wheaton College (Christian Liberal Arts School), in 'Theological Studies'. He got his PhD in... 'Religion' from Marquette University (Catholic Jesuit School). He is presently acting as Senior Research Fellow at the Center for Marriage and Family Studies of the Family Research Council, who describe themselves in the following manner...

http://www.frc.org/about-frc

Since 1983, Family Research Council (FRC) has advanced faith, family and freedom in public policy and public opinion. FRC's team of seasoned experts promotes these core values through policy research, public education on Capitol Hill and in the media, and grassroots mobilization. We review legislation, meet with policymakers, publish books and pamphlets, build coalitions, testify before Congress, and maintain a powerful presence in print and broadcast media. Through our outreach to pastors, we equip churches to transform the culture.

Strategically located in Washington, D.C., FRC is the leading voice for the family in our nation's halls of power. FRC is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization.

First off, he does not have the accreditation and education to be offering opinions on anything approaching the issue. Secondly, he is obviously biased. Third, he represents an organization that is incredibly biased and who espouses what is essentially a propaganda (there is that word again) campaign in favor of your view point. The website the article is published on is not peer reviewed and indeed, another propaganda machine for an orthodox ideology.

So we can safely completely rule out anything the man gives as a personal opinion as biased hogwash. I went through the article and found that my supposition was incredibly warranted.

A number of studies in recent years have purported to show that children raised in gay and lesbian households fare no worse than those reared in traditional families. Yet much of that research fails to meet acceptable standards for psychological research; it is compromised by methodological flaws and driven by political agendas instead of an objective search for truth.

Here is a gem. He basically says that a large number of studies are in contrast to his point and proceeds to attack them. We've already established that his academic credentials are the equivalent of toilet paper with 'degree' on it when it comes to psychological research. And if anyone has a political agenda, it is this guy.

In addition, openly lesbian researchers sometimes conduct research with an interest in portraying homosexual parenting in a positive light. The deficiencies of studies on homosexual parenting include reliance upon an inadequate sample size, lack of random sampling, lack of anonymity of research participants, and self-presentation bias.

Again, his accusations are meaningless because he is under qualified to be making any such judgments.

I skimmed the rest of the article, but generally it is a bunch of slanderous biased hate speech written by a man who has neither the education nor the experience to be making anything resembling a judgment call.

I am happy to get into it more deeply but that will take quite some time. Really though, it is unnecessary, since again, trying to prop this guy up as a 'Authority' is worse than you just giving your opinion on the matter.

[lastcallhall]

I still hope you won't be oppressed when the day comes, like you and yours think it is appropriate to oppress others.

John 15:18-20
New King James Version (NKJV)


The Worlds Hatred

18 If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, A servant is not greater than his master. If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.

I really don't care if we become a persecuted minority because I know that no matter what I am following the Lord.

Why? Do you even understand it?

To the extent you do, no but I know all I need to know. One little microbe did not eventually crawl out of the ocean and create male and female everything. That is enough for me, that's insane. The Bible and God tell the story.

Believing in evolution doesn't make you an atheist. =) Not only are you making completely ignorant statements (that show you don't have a clue how evolution truly functions) you still make Appeals to Popularity. Are you even bothering to read anything I write before you respond?

I read everything you have said but you just get stuck on the fact that I just don't believe your argument.

You can quote your unsubstantiated folklore all you like lastcallhall, but it won't change a darn thing about the way things are. There is ignorance, and then there is willful ignorance.

Again not ignorance, I se you as the ignorant one.

Romans 1:20-22
New King James Version (NKJV)

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools

You can reject God but DO NOT assume I reject your argument out of ignorance.

You do realize you can be a Christian Scientist don't you?

sure and if they hire him I am all for it

Maybe you do not understand the concept of 'limited options'.

First off I don't really care what you do for a living and what you think "limited options" are. I do very well for myself and I don't have a degree from a secular university. I will not brag but you are making a statement that is flat out untrue.

I can write 'degree' on a roll of toilet paper and declare myself a college graduate, if I want. However, if I do not attend a respected accredited university, my career options would be severely limited.

What is respectable to you really means nothing to me. What if my child wants to get into ministry? Or get a business degree why would Liberty not work out? Not up to snuff with Harvard? Who cares!

You for example are limiting your children to potential educations at universities that do not give them a great number of career options (and I would assume are of questionable accreditation) or will limit their job placement to a grand degree. Most parents want their kids to go wherever they can manage.

I want what is best for my children but 3 generations in my family have been self employed and I hope my children follow me and are blessed as I have been.

Oh? It seems to happen to famous fundamentalist conservatives all the time? Every couple of months I hear about one guy or another getting caught soliciting sexual favors from a male prostitute. Your children would obviously be deathly afraid of discussing the matter with you, so how do you know they aren't just bottling their real feelings up inside?

http://www.ranker.com/list/top-10-anti- ... gay/joanne

This proves what?

That point essentially zoomed right over your head, didn't it?

No not really

You have continually stuck by a position of censorship to 'protect your children' from exposure to knowledge. In the book the Monk knew all about sin in theory. He read the bible. He even preached about it. If you keep them completely closeted away from it, they will have no ability to deal with the real world thing. I can read all I want about engines, but that doesn't mean I can fix a car.

I function in life, how do you account for that?

You know, lastcallhall, when you present this sort of thing, the appropriate thing to do is cite your sources. What am I supposed to do here? Just take your word for it? Where are you getting this information from? A fair and unbiased news source?

Don't take my word for it, I don't care if you believe it. It was ruled by the 9th circuit court in CA so it really happened.

It's not proof until you actually say where the heck you are getting it from. As far as I know, you just made this up on the spot or it is coming from a propaganda group that is twisting the facts to support your interests. Of course, even if it did really happen and isn't some sort of overblown case of poor reporting, it still does not justify your irrational fears. That seems to me to be a good educational experience. Do you think any of the kids converted to Islam because of it? Really?!

http://www.nsba.org/SchoolLaw/Issues/Cu ... 172005.txt


Here is a link and YES my child will never dishonor God and pray to Allah. That is disgusting and wrong. I would sue the school district that day, it is blasphemy.

I have not seen a lot of rational arguments or opinions out of you. I have never seen you change an opinion, but maybe I missed something.

Slopeshoulder, the guy that gave you the gold star. We were debating abortion and he got me to alter my view, very slightly but I did.

I sound Conservative now, or is that a typo? Please, describe to me my political affiliations and why. Since you apparently possess psychic powers that operate over the internet.

I apologize I did not correctly write don't sound conservative. No powers just you don't remind me of Billy Graham, Dr. Dobson, or Rod Parsley

Presently because I am arguing with you, you want to label me as a liberal. Does that allow you to demonize me lastcallhall?

Not demonizing, I have many liberal friends and I love them all. Misguided and we have arguments but in the end we get along.

You are really going to have to do better than that if you are going to speak out against the scientific majority on anything, I am afraid.

My only point is that it is not settled science by any stretch. I seek the truth and honestly either way I don't care at all about global warming real or not real.

Anything else or can we move on from this distraction? If you want to keep arguing it, please start a thread in Science and Religion and I'll give you even more evidence.

Like I said I really truly don't care. God is going to restore the earth so I don't want to debate global warming. I wouldn't change my lifestyle or my gas guzzler no matter what.

That's quite a strawman. Evolution can theoretically exist with 'God' after all. The Catholic Church thinks so. Proponents of Intelligent Design sure think so. Why don't we start one step at a time lastcallhall, and focus on evolution minus religion? We don't have to talk about religion at all.

Can't do it, sorry.

Please explain the following to me so I can gauge your rough understanding of evolution?
1) Describe the Theory of Evolution (how it operates).

One microbe crawled out of the water after how ever many years and then somehow became male and female everything over time. I know you have a million steps you want to throw in and I understand you think it makes it possible but there is no way an ant and an elephant came from the same thing. None.

2) Explain Natural Selection.

its your explanation of why animals and people have different characteristics

3) Explain Random Mutation.

honestly have never talked about such a topic

I assume since you disagree with the theory, that you have studied it enough to understand it. So this should be a relatively simple exercise for you, right?

You can condescend all you wish but the fact remains I reject evolution and really don't care if you think I'm dumb.

Really though, we should cover this in another thread since it don't belong here except to demonstrate your repeated lack of rational support for your statements.

I understand you think the Bible is not a response but I do

Lastcallhall, do you know what a good source of information is?

No, please help me kind sir

I skimmed the rest of the article, but generally it is a bunch of slanderous biased hate speech written by a man who has neither the education nor the experience to be making anything resembling a judgment call.

Boy I really didn't expect that, can you give me a credit source? Maybe a secular humanist, God hating intellectual from an Ivy league school that can show us christians where we are wrong this time.

[lastcallhall]

Just as I said. Not a single study comparing lesbian families to heterosexual families. Until you find a study that shows that heterosexual families do a better job raising children than lesbian families*, you should stop stating that they do; it is not honest.

Reject the study, I don't care. I have more but you will reject those as well. I am not being dishonest you just reject what this man says.

*You can't, because there aren't any. There aren't any, because it's not true. The fact is that children of lesbian families turn out AT LEAST AS WELL as children of heterosexual families.

Telling lies about other people isn't nice. Didn't anyone ever teach you that?

Who is lying?

[lastcallhall]

Are you saying that they are not Christians? Is that up to you to decide? Is it common for non-Christians to say they're Christian?

Like I said people can call themselves anything they wish, I could call myself cool but it may or may not be true. I just think you have to reject much of the Bible to be in a homosexual lifestyle and think the Bible accepts that.