The Gay agenda

[lastcallhall]

This is an article from Jim Daly on Foxnews and it looks like what a few of us conservative christians believe is the gay agenda moving forward to get marriage passed.

I am, naturally, personally opposed to the legalization of same-sex marriage for the simple but profound reason that it violates and contradicts the sacred text of the Bible, which I believe to be true and inspired. But on what basis should I expect people who dont believe as I do to likewise oppose same-sex marriage?

On the basis of logic, reason, common sense and the fact that preservation of traditional marriage is in the best interest of the common good, as evidenced by any number of factors, including reams of social science data and thousands of years of history.

Any discussion on the definition of marriage incites strong emotional reaction. And those of us within the orthodox Christian community understand that many in the culture see this issue very differently, and hold to very passionate views on the subject. We understand that on this matter, in some circles, that never the twain shall meet. Nevertheless, this difference of opinion does not preclude us the privilege of championing a principle we hold dear, especially since its our Christian faith that motivates us to support and defend what we believe to be Gods blueprint for human relationship. In the last half-century, progressives have exercised their own rights of cultural engagement, aggressively championing sweeping cultural changes on numerous levels. Although we may disagree with them, we certainly dont begrudge them the right to engage the process. But in this pursuit to redefine marriage, wouldnt it make sense to consider the outcomes of prior social reengineering efforts?

In the late 1960s, no-fault divorce promised to simplify, streamline and decrease the contentiousness surrounding marital breakup. Instead, it only encouraged struggling spouses to throw in the towel. Fathers abandoned their families in droves. Poverty levels skyrocketed. Prison populations increased at dramatic levels, a consequence of kids now growing up without a father in the home.

A few years later, in 1973, the Supreme Court legalized abortion in all 50 states. Supporters heralded a new era of responsibility, where every child would be a wanted child. Tragically, over 48 million babies have now been aborted and the beauty of life has been cheapened as a result, while child abuse has skyrocketed.

The expansion of welfare promised to alleviate human suffering. While in some ways noble in intent, it disincentivized work, undermined the family unit and created a perpetual cycle of dependency and poverty. Fathers were no longer needed to be an integral part of the family.

Cohabitation is yet another experiment which promised to liberate couples from the burden of marriage. The number of couples living together outside of marriage has increased ten-fold between 1960 and 2000. Over 12 million unmarried partners now live together in the United States. The result? Cohabitation not only decreases a persons appetite for marriage, it also increases the risk of divorce, should the couple ever tie the knot.

Further, a home with two unmarried partners has proven to be the most dangerous place for children in the U.S. Children who live with their mother and boyfriend are 11 times more likely to be sexually, physically, or emotionally abused than children living with their married biological parents.

In each example of social reengineering Ive noted, progressives promised good things. Sadly, the exact opposite has happened. However well-meaning the motivation, reengineering what God has designed is not only unwise, but radical and dangerous, too.

Without evidence of success to which to point, supporters of these ill-fated ventures are left with but one choice: If you cant change unfavorable outcomes, you change the minds of people as to what is considered favorable and good.

Here lies the last great frontier and the last gasp for those determined to re-engineer marriage. Those committed to this form of radicalism have systematically broken down the cultural barrier to same sex marriage by desensitizing people on the issue, stigmatizing those who oppose the movement and potentially criminalizing anyone who stands in opposition to them. The irony in our cultural discussion currently, is if you support traditional marriage, you are the one perceived by the cultural elite to be the radical.

Consider the case of a New Mexico couple who own and operate a photography business. When they kindly refused to shoot a lesbian marriage ceremony, they were summarily brought up on human rights violations by the New Mexico Human Rights Commission. They were fined for not accepting the job. While on the other hand, Christian organizations are now being singled out and suppliers are threatening to no longer supply them with critical support functions like computer technology because of their stand in opposition to same-sex marriage. Those in favor of same-sex marriage do not see the contradiction in these two examples. One group must perform the services and is fined for not doing so (in the name of human rights); the other is allowed to default on their contract because of alleged bigoted behavior on the part of the religious organization (with no regard for religious expression).

If religious liberty is lost in America, we will cease to be the nation our Founders intended us to be. Our rights will no longer be derived from God but from man, and therefore, dangerously beholden to political despots. I dont think Thomas Jefferson intended that to be the outcome for our great nation when he wrote the famous Danbury Baptist Church letter which mentioned the separation of church and state. Contrary to conventional wisdom, President Jefferson was expressing a concern that the church needed to be protected from the state, not the state from the church. It appears his fears are now being realized.

Jim Daly is president and host of "Focus on the Family."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/ ... z1NJdkc5AN


The questions I have for debate are:

1. Is what happened to the New Mexico couple proof that gay marriage will threaten christians and the church from living our faith?

2. If gay marriage is legal in the entire US would churches be forced to recognize gay couples and be forced to hire gay people to positions even if that would be against our beliefs?

[Autodidact]

Being a woman or black is not a sin, not the same argument

Neither is being gay. The fact that you believe it is reveals your prejudice.

[Autodidact]

Here in NY gay marriage has just been legalized.

Romans 1:24-27
New King James Version (NKJV)

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

So you want us to teach your religious beliefs in the public schools? To children of Unitarians, Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Humanists, Episcopalians and all the rest?

What would you suggest saying to innocent children of same sex marriages in public school when the issue comes up? It will come up, children are curious and smart, and want to know everything. Would you traumatize and frighten the child by telling it the parents are going to burn in hell, and that the child has no "real" parents? Is that what Christian tolerance and love says to do?

You tell them the truth that it is a sinful lifestyle and yes if anyone dies in their sin they will split the gates of hell wide open. I see that you do a person more harm by not telling them the truth of the lifestyle. They can reject it.

I see. You have a monopoly on the truth then. Your opinion = truth? Why don't you have a try at convincing us that any of this is truth, and we'll find out what it's based on and what the chances are of its being true.

Listen, you have a perfect right to live your life believing whatever you like, regardless of its utter lack of connection with reality. You don't have the right to inflict your personal superstitions on the public schools.

[Autodidact]

Well that depends. Are you going to teach reading, writing, math and history, or are you going to preach your religious beliefs at the pupils?

My point exactly the people pushing this agenda will also throw in that it is ok to have 2 mommies and that is normal and ok. They won't just teach so and so did this and move on they will "preach" what they want.

1. This is what I mean by demonstrating your prejudice for all to see.
2. It is perfectly o.k. to have two mommies. If you think it's not, please show us why.
3. How do you think public school teachers should treat children with two mommies? Should they "preach" at them that their families are wrong and going to hell?

I will be happy to cite the many studies that have concluded that children of same-sex parents do at least as well as children of different-sex parents, as well as the statements from child welfare and health advocacy organizations that say the same thing. Will they have any impact on your views?

No because of two reasons the Bible is my ultimate authority and I have seen many studies from your side as well. Like most studies whoever is paying for the results usually gets what they want.

I thought so. Your mind is closed on the subject. Again, that's your right. However, if you state that children in same-sex families do worse than in heterosexual families, you are lying. It is not true, and there are NO studies that show that it is true. None. Zero. Zilch. No matter who paid for them.

I challenge you to present a peer-reviewed, scientific study that compares children in lesbian or gay families to children in heterosexual families and shows that they have worse outcomes. If you cannot, then I challenge you to stop going around spreading falsehood about a group you do not belong to. Thank you.

[Autodidact]

And you believe that cocooning them away from dissenting viewpoints, shielding them from well thought out differences of views from your own is the pathway towards getting your kids to think for themselves?

No, clearly I don't believe that or I would not be on this website with so many people who think I hate people and that I am a bigot. I just don't want a secular, potentially God hating person putting their spin on the homosexual lifestyle. My kids know about it but they also know the Bible calls it sin and that is my beef with the public schools. I send my kids to private schools but I fear this is coming there as well. It is not what you say, it is how you say it.

You know that there are thousands of gay Christians, right? That most gay Americans, like most straight Americans, are Christian?

[*No True Scotsman in 5, 4, 3...]

[Deadclown]

I know my influence is great on my children and two of my three children (the third is 2) already love the Lord and are well on their way to becoming a strong bible believing christian

That's lovely. Is your faith and influence so weak that you believe your children can get corrupted by a balanced and accurate education? That seems to be a hypothetical question, but I am still trying to wrap my head around the fact that your instilled moral framework is akin to a house of cards.

No but my guess is that the local schools won't hire an evangelical right wing christian like me to teach the class. They want someone to repeat the company line.

Your 'guess' counts for diddly squat in a debate. In fact, they would be wrong to NOT hire someone who was an evangelical right wing fundamentalist Christian like yourself (discrimination). I wouldn't even mind if a science teacher believed in Creationism, as long as he *taught* evolution to the children, and didn't try to instill his 'beliefs'. The whole point of a secular education is everyone leaves their religion and prejudice at the door. It sounds as if you are projecting sir, imagining that everyone else is incapable of doing as much.

I follow the Bible and that keeps me fair an unbiased in the sense that I try not to judge people only sin.

Saying that you are fair and unbiased by basing your morality on the bible, is an oxymoron.

I have never seen the film, if I am right it was produced by Pelosi's kid and I am sure it is a left wing smear campaign. My level of fundamentalism is like a Pastor John Hagee, his views are very similar to mine. I always tell people I am to the right of Rush and the left of God, hope that helps.

Well, I recommend it. It actually doesn't make any commentary. It is a 'good documentary', in the sense that it is just interviews and events that occur. I can see many of them being totally acceptable to Christian Fundamentalists, even though watching it sickened me, personally. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I hear. If you are Right-er that Rush, then that does give me a pretty good idea where you stand.

You sir, are a minority. For you and people who feel similarly to discriminate against another minority is going to set a dangerous precedent for the future. I hope that as the decades pass your religious views are treated with more sympathy and understanding than you treat those you see as having a lifestyle that is counter to your fringe religious views.

They will not in a secular science class, can you prove evolution is true? They teach it as truth but a large majority of the population of the world would disagree.

I can, actually (check out the Science and Religion subforum for a ton of evidence, but I can set you in the right direction here for educational purposes... assuming you will of course read what I provide with an open mind and earnest desire to educate yourself on something you are adamantly opposed to).

It has become a proven fact (as well as a theory) due to insurmountable evidence in its favor. What proof do you require (define 'proof' for you)? We have all sorts. DNA evidence, experimental observations, fossil records... the list is quite sizeable and far in excess of the proof you base your faith upon. If you deny evolution then you are not only wanting to rewrite history, but you also must imagine a global conspiracy created by liberals?

Also, I challenge you to show that a large majority of the world population does not accept the Theory of Evolution. Although this gives me oppurtinity to introduce you to yet ANOTHER logical fallacy that you gleefully commit, called the Appeal to Popularity.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie ... arity.html

You see, even if 99.999% of the world believed as you did, it wouldn't matter one whit to the validity of the theory of evolution.

You can instruct your children in Creationism for all I care, but you should recognize that it will severely limit their prospects later on in life.

Really? I am married, own a home, run a business, and do well for myself. I have many friends and feel I lead a good life. If my children are blessed the same way God has blessed me I am not sure how that would be bad or limit them in any way? Please explain?

I already did? Your children will have an extremely difficult time going into any science related field (biology, geology, physics, etc.) as they are not getting the accurate basic education. They also are getting a poor history education, obviously, so that limits their options in those related fields. In fact, I would hazard a guess that many colleges will be leery of their applications seeing as how they attended private Christian schools where Creationism is (I assume) taught as factual and science courses are severely lacking in accuracy. It will limit their ability to interact with minorities that you have taught them to discriminate against, and will probably reflect in their ability to be successful in many parts of the country/world as a result where your views are seen as extremely radical.

Additionally, if any of your children discovers that they are, in fact, homosexuals, it will probably be a crippling life long emotional issue for them. Although I am sure you would not see it that way.

How so? I love history are you saying I can't live in the "real world"?

If you deny evolution, believe in a 100% literal interpretation of the bible, and in a gay/liberal worldwide conspiracy, I propose that you do not live in the 'real world' already. However, what I meant with the comment, is that if you raise your child in a bubble, they will be under prepared for life outside of the bubble.

Have you ever read 'The Monk'? It is a classic, although you might not approve of it very much. The overall plot is of a priest who is renowned for being the most blessed and pious man in the area, but he is this way because he has *never* been exposed to sin. It is easy to be sinless when there is no temptation. However, the very second he is exposed to it, he has no defenses, and is seduced by a demon. It begins a very long road of corruption, because his piousness was built upon false pride and never truly tested.

Yes they should and they should learn that the christians were wrong.

Good. That is really good to hear. I was worried on that one.

Yes and no, I have studied the Quran so I can talk to a muslim but I DO NOT want any class that would have them pray to Allah like they have in CA BTW.

Can you *cite* that please? I haven't heard of any secular classrooms that FORCE children to pray to Allah, and I am going to go ahead and call foul on that.

Likewise, what is the difference between learning about Islam in historical context in a classroom and learning about homosexuals in a historical context in a classroom? There just 'is' one?

They should hear all about it and love black people.

You have clear and obvious paradoxes in your thinking. I am going to keep trying to point them out to you. I stick to the Islam one, since you (thankfully) do not discriminate against *racial* minorities.

My concerns remain

To be perfectly frank, I don't expect to change your mind. The idea that I could reverse your opinion on these matters would be horribly arrogant of me no matter how solid my logic, compelling my speech, or flawed your reasoning. All I am hoping to do is show readers exactly how flawed the logic of your position is so that they will see the inherent weakness of it.

It is not a slippery slope, I understand the term but reject the argument in this case. I have read way to many articles and heard way to many people speak to not understand the true intentions here.

Your opinion, again, counts for diddly squat. You saying that you have 'evidence' and not showing it just makes it even more firmly a Slippery Slope Fallacy.

I challenge you to present your evidence, and *prove* that you are not being completely irrational.

Wow. Uh. Wow. I don't even know how to respond to that. Evolution... is a liberal propaganda piece. I'd almost think you were pulling my leg if I didn't know better.

I'm not pulling your leg, do you think many people on the right believe that? Is it true, no. Like global warming your side packages it as truth but that is far from reality.

First off, you assume that I am a liberal. Why is that? I disagree with you? Why do there have to be 'sides' at all? I have never said anything about my political affiliations on this board.

Secondly, I am an environmental engineer by career, and can assure you that man caused global climate change is an evidenced reality. Although it is hardly going to be the end of the world. Some places will benefit, some places will not. Weather will become more extreme until it stabilizes. Although I suppose that by saying as much I am just saying exactly what I would say, as a member of the conspiracy.

I guess we can just chalk this up as another area where you are making regretfully ignorant statements with absolutely zero evidence to back them up except things you've 'heard' and what you 'think'.

I just did but I will go further, nobody can prove evolution and end the debate like you can say the earth is round and except for .00001% of the population you will have total agreement.

That just makes that minor minority horribly and sadly ignorant. Evolution has been proved. Proved time and time again for the last century. People who say that it can't be proven are just in denial or have no reasonable idea of what proof is. Please? Challenge me? Ask me for some evidence that will be convincing to you? If it is written down by desert nomads it is unquestionable fact, to you, I might add.

Evolution is put out by the left as fact, evangelicals are called dumb or misinformed and yet it is not fact but like Hitler says if you say anything enough people will believe it and I think that is the goal here. There is no way a the same thing climbed out of the water became male and female worms and then somehow became male and female elephants. Call me dumb but I would never, ever believe that.

There are many conservatives politically who have no issues with the theory of evolution. My parents are a pair of them. The Catholic Church accepts it (in the form of Intelligent Design) as well. I do not think you are dumb, simply ignorant and probably completely unwilling to even try to educate yourself on the subject. I am happy to try and help you, but I fear that my efforts will be in vain. I will try anyway. Please allow me the opportunity?

Now personally, I'd earnestly hope that you and your children get greater exposure to homosexual culture and homosexuals to the point where you can recognize that two mothers or two fathers are in fact, just as good as a mother and a father (better in a lot of cases).

Really? The studies I have seen say just the opposite where is your proof of that statement?

Notice my language. I said 'in a lot of cases', because if you think that every man+woman couple is a good parental unit to children, then you are in denial of reality. My girlfriend is a child social services worker and I hear every single day about the horror stories she faces. Unless you are trying to assert that every homosexual couple that acts as parents for children is worse than parents who beat their children, molest their children, starve their children, or try and sell their children for drugs, my statement holds firm.

Also, since you so coyly tried to shift the burden of proof onto me, I now challenge you to provide proof of *your* original statement. Please provide these fair and unbiased studies you have 'seen'.

You see lastcallhall, you are being irrational in your fears because you have presented no reason for a logical progression of events.

I am not forcing you to believe what I do

That does not make your many irrational viewpoints any more rational, I am afraid. It does not make your fears warranted. It does not justify your beliefs.

[micatala]

Here in NY gay marriage has just been legalized.

Romans 1:24-27
New King James Version (NKJV)

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

What would you suggest saying to innocent children of same sex marriages in public school when the issue comes up? It will come up, children are curious and smart, and want to know everything. Would you traumatize and frighten the child by telling it the parents are going to burn in hell, and that the child has no "real" parents? Is that what Christian tolerance and love says to do?

You tell them the truth that it is a sinful lifestyle and yes if anyone dies in their sin they will split the gates of hell wide open. I see that you do a person more harm by not telling them the truth of the lifestyle. They can reject it.

Yes, we are constantly moving towards a more just, civilized, and equitable society. It's called progress. Marriage equality will someday be national, International even, the same way racial equality is progressing today, it's an inevitable result of growing human enlightenment, understanding, and knowledge

.

We are moving more and more towards a moral sewar.

Again, why should a particular religious view of morality be made into law in a country that recognizes religious freedom?


And I will reiterate, the passage you cite here cannot, in context, be considered to apply to all people everywhere and at all times. Paul is talking about idolaters, and he is addressing a particular people (the Romans) at a particular time. To apply this even only to Christians today is a huge, huge stretch.

[Clownboat]

As long as they are thinking the thoughts that you have instilled through indoctrination, right?

Is it better to buy into your secular humanist argument? They have to buy into something and I want them to see the truth.

Yes, the argument that all humans are equal is better than the one you are proposing. You want your kids to see "your" truth. You cannot show that your truth is the truth. There was a time when I believed your truth and actually argued your same arguments (about abortion and homosexuality).

I don't believe you would truly want them to think for themselves. (Otherwise you would not be so set on secluding them).

You must know me better than I know myself, again if I did not want to hear anything but people who think like me why would I be on this site? So you can call me hateful?

My church use to tell me that if we were not being persecuted, we were not being good christians. That is a reason in itself for a person to be on this site.

There is a point when a person can become too heavenly to be of any earthly good. If this is you, there will come a day when your indoctrination attempts will either succeed (helping them to think only your thoughts will help this) or fail (if they truly start thinking on their own, they will eventually see you for what you are).

What am I? I see that I am a Bible believing christian and like I said the church has lasted for 2,000 years, it will NEVER die out!! AMEN

I was once a bible believing christian too, but that died out. For the record, there is no problem with christians or people believing the christian faith. It's the hate and control of others that I speak out against that comes along with the territory.

[lastcallhall]

1. This is what I mean by demonstrating your prejudice for all to see.
2. It is perfectly o.k. to have two mommies. If you think it's not, please show us why.

God set us up to be raised by a mother and a father. There are many studies that show the negative effects of a fatherless home. There are things a mother can teach a child and things a father can. My wife can show our girls how to put on makeup, I can't.

3. How do you think public school teachers should treat children with two mommies? Should they "preach" at them that their families are wrong and going to hell?

Leave the subject alone, do not speak for it or against it.

I thought so. Your mind is closed on the subject. Again, that's your right. However, if you state that children in same-sex families do worse than in heterosexual families, you are lying.

Not even close what studies do you have and who did them? I can list several done by Focus on the Family but you would reject those.

It is not true, and there are NO studies that show that it is true. None. Zero. Zilch. No matter who paid for them.

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles/ ... yAdopt.php

[lastcallhall]

You know that there are thousands of gay Christians, right? That most gay Americans, like most straight Americans, are Christian?

Anyone can call themselves whatever they wish but it may not make it so

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
New King James Version (NKJV)

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[lastcallhall]

That's lovely. Is your faith and influence so weak that you believe your children can get corrupted by a balanced and accurate education? That seems to be a hypothetical question, but I am still trying to wrap my head around the fact that your instilled moral framework is akin to a house of cards.

No my faith is strong to the point of death, the morals I teach my kids are from the Bible and will always come from the Bible. I am not afraid of anyone but I will not let them sit and listen to propaganda and lies put forth by the school.

You sir, are a minority. For you and people who feel similarly to discriminate against another minority is going to set a dangerous precedent for the future. I hope that as the decades pass your religious views are treated with more sympathy and understanding than you treat those you see as having a lifestyle that is counter to your fringe religious views.

We are a christian nation and as long as we have Bible believing christians we will oppose things like this whether you feel it is ok or not. I do not seek approval from the world.

James 4:4
New King James Version (NKJV)

4 Adulterers and[a] adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

I can, actually (check out the Science and Religion subforum for a ton of evidence, but I can set you in the right direction here for educational purposes... assuming you will of course read what I provide with an open mind and earnest desire to educate yourself on something you are adamantly opposed to).

I have read and debated on this site and I find evolution to be totally false.

It has become a proven fact (as well as a theory) due to insurmountable evidence in its favor. What proof do you require (define 'proof' for you)? We have all sorts. DNA evidence, experimental observations, fossil records... the list is quite sizeable and far in excess of the proof you base your faith upon. If you deny evolution then you are not only wanting to rewrite history, but you also must imagine a global conspiracy created by liberals?

If there is sooo much proof that an ant became an elephant why is there such a large group that believe in God still?

Also, I challenge you to show that a large majority of the world population does not accept the Theory of Evolution. Although this gives me oppurtinity to introduce you to yet ANOTHER logical fallacy that you gleefully commit, called the Appeal to Popularity.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie ... arity.html

You see, even if 99.999% of the world believed as you did, it wouldn't matter one whit to the validity of the theory of evolution.

I agree I could care less what the majority thinks only what God does. Evolution is NOT a fact, you can keep saying it and it still will not be true.

Genesis 1
The History of Creation
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

This is the beginning and end for me

I already did? Your children will have an extremely difficult time going into any science related field (biology, geology, physics, etc.) as they are not getting the accurate basic education.

Who cares? That is a good thing to not be around secular God hating people all day, it would drag you down.

They also are getting a poor history education, obviously, so that limits their options in those related fields. In fact, I would hazard a guess that many colleges will be leery of their applications seeing as how they attended private Christian schools where Creationism is (I assume) taught as factual and science courses are severely lacking in accuracy.

Problem solved Liberty University, Bob Jones University, many Bible colleges will do.

Additionally, if any of your children discovers that they are, in fact, homosexuals, it will probably be a crippling life long emotional issue for them. Although I am sure you would not see it that way.

Really? Won't happen.

If you deny evolution, believe in a 100% literal interpretation of the bible, and in a gay/liberal worldwide conspiracy, I propose that you do not live in the 'real world' already. However, what I meant with the comment, is that if you raise your child in a bubble, they will be under prepared for life outside of the bubble.

And I think you live in darkness so who is to say, I believe my world is God's view and his is the only one that matters.

Have you ever read 'The Monk'? It is a classic, although you might not approve of it very much. The overall plot is of a priest who is renowned for being the most blessed and pious man in the area, but he is this way because he has *never* been exposed to sin. It is easy to be sinless when there is no temptation. However, the very second he is exposed to it, he has no defenses, and is seduced by a demon. It begins a very long road of corruption, because his piousness was built upon false pride and never truly tested.

I have not but who is not around sin? My kids will see it all the time. My goal is to instill in them God's word so they know what sin is. They can stay away from it. Everybody will and does sin and my kids are no different but they need to know what to look out for.

Can you *cite* that please? I haven't heard of any secular classrooms that FORCE children to pray to Allah, and I am going to go ahead and call foul on that.

Likewise, what is the difference between learning about Islam in historical context in a classroom and learning about homosexuals in a historical context in a classroom? There just 'is' one?

The U.S. Supreme Court on Oct. 2 refused to consider an appeal from a Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals decision by parents who objected to their 7th graders being required to take a 3-week course in Islam indoctrination in the California public schools. The pro-school, anti-parent case is Eklund v. Byron Union School District.
The Excelsior public school in Byron, California was teaching 7th graders how to act like Muslims, using a student guide stating, "From the beginning [of this module], you and your classmates will become Muslims."

The students were given Muslim names and told to recite Muslim prayers. They were required to give up things for a day to recognize the Islamic practice of Ramadan, and students said that the teacher gave extra credit for fasting at lunch too. Students were told to recite from the Koran, encouraged to wear Arab clothing, told to pretend they were making a pilgrimage to Mecca, and earned points for using Muslim religious phrases such as one meaning "God is great." For the final exam, the students had to write an essay about Islamic culture. The essay assignment warned students as follows: "BE CAREFUL HERE " if you do not have something positive to say, don't say anything!!!"

The school district argued for the court's approval of this course in order to give the teachers assurance they would not be sued for teaching about the Pilgrims and Thanksgiving or Lincoln's Gettysburg Address.

The Byron school district still continues to make the same instructional materials available for use by teachers. In 2003, this public school received a Distinguished School Award from the California Department of Education, declaring it to be one of the state's "most exemplary and inspiring public schools."


I hope this is proof for you and there is more. Now am I so crazy with my concerns about homosexuality and what they will teach?

To be perfectly frank, I don't expect to change your mind. The idea that I could reverse your opinion on these matters would be horribly arrogant of me no matter how solid my logic, compelling my speech, or flawed your reasoning. All I am hoping to do is show readers exactly how flawed the logic of your position is so that they will see the inherent weakness of it.

Most on this site think I am nuts and I'm ok with that. But I have changed an opinion of mine because of this site so I do have an open mind if I am wrong.

First off, you assume that I am a liberal. Why is that?

I think your comments speak for themselves, you do sound conservative.

I disagree with you? Why do there have to be 'sides' at all? I have never said anything about my political affiliations on this board.

No need to say, it is not hard to tell

Secondly, I am an environmental engineer by career, and can assure you that man caused global climate change is an evidenced reality. Although it is hardly going to be the end of the world. Some places will benefit, some places will not. Weather will become more extreme until it stabilizes. Although I suppose that by saying as much I am just saying exactly what I would say, as a member of the conspiracy.

I guess we can just chalk this up as another area where you are making regretfully ignorant statements with absolutely zero evidence to back them up except things you've 'heard' and what you 'think'.

Not to long ago a few hundred scientists signed a paper stating global warming is crap, are they all wrong?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sc ... al_warming

That just makes that minor minority horribly and sadly ignorant. Evolution has been proved. Proved time and time again for the last century. People who say that it can't be proven are just in denial or have no reasonable idea of what proof is. Please? Challenge me? Ask me for some evidence that will be convincing to you? If it is written down by desert nomads it is unquestionable fact, to you, I might add.

Prove there is no God to start.

There are many conservatives politically who have no issues with the theory of evolution. My parents are a pair of them. The Catholic Church accepts it (in the form of Intelligent Design) as well. I do not think you are dumb, simply ignorant and probably completely unwilling to even try to educate yourself on the subject. I am happy to try and help you, but I fear that my efforts will be in vain. I will try anyway. Please allow me the opportunity?

Let's do it

Notice my language. I said 'in a lot of cases', because if you think that every man+woman couple is a good parental unit to children, then you are in denial of reality. My girlfriend is a child social services worker and I hear every single day about the horror stories she faces. Unless you are trying to assert that every homosexual couple that acts as parents for children is worse than parents who beat their children, molest their children, starve their children, or try and sell their children for drugs, my statement holds firm.

Also, since you so coyly tried to shift the burden of proof onto me, I now challenge you to provide proof of *your* original statement. Please provide these fair and unbiased studies you have 'seen'.

I have provided a study in the response above