The Gay agenda

[lastcallhall]

This is an article from Jim Daly on Foxnews and it looks like what a few of us conservative christians believe is the gay agenda moving forward to get marriage passed.

I am, naturally, personally opposed to the legalization of same-sex marriage for the simple but profound reason that it violates and contradicts the sacred text of the Bible, which I believe to be true and inspired. But on what basis should I expect people who dont believe as I do to likewise oppose same-sex marriage?

On the basis of logic, reason, common sense and the fact that preservation of traditional marriage is in the best interest of the common good, as evidenced by any number of factors, including reams of social science data and thousands of years of history.

Any discussion on the definition of marriage incites strong emotional reaction. And those of us within the orthodox Christian community understand that many in the culture see this issue very differently, and hold to very passionate views on the subject. We understand that on this matter, in some circles, that never the twain shall meet. Nevertheless, this difference of opinion does not preclude us the privilege of championing a principle we hold dear, especially since its our Christian faith that motivates us to support and defend what we believe to be Gods blueprint for human relationship. In the last half-century, progressives have exercised their own rights of cultural engagement, aggressively championing sweeping cultural changes on numerous levels. Although we may disagree with them, we certainly dont begrudge them the right to engage the process. But in this pursuit to redefine marriage, wouldnt it make sense to consider the outcomes of prior social reengineering efforts?

In the late 1960s, no-fault divorce promised to simplify, streamline and decrease the contentiousness surrounding marital breakup. Instead, it only encouraged struggling spouses to throw in the towel. Fathers abandoned their families in droves. Poverty levels skyrocketed. Prison populations increased at dramatic levels, a consequence of kids now growing up without a father in the home.

A few years later, in 1973, the Supreme Court legalized abortion in all 50 states. Supporters heralded a new era of responsibility, where every child would be a wanted child. Tragically, over 48 million babies have now been aborted and the beauty of life has been cheapened as a result, while child abuse has skyrocketed.

The expansion of welfare promised to alleviate human suffering. While in some ways noble in intent, it disincentivized work, undermined the family unit and created a perpetual cycle of dependency and poverty. Fathers were no longer needed to be an integral part of the family.

Cohabitation is yet another experiment which promised to liberate couples from the burden of marriage. The number of couples living together outside of marriage has increased ten-fold between 1960 and 2000. Over 12 million unmarried partners now live together in the United States. The result? Cohabitation not only decreases a persons appetite for marriage, it also increases the risk of divorce, should the couple ever tie the knot.

Further, a home with two unmarried partners has proven to be the most dangerous place for children in the U.S. Children who live with their mother and boyfriend are 11 times more likely to be sexually, physically, or emotionally abused than children living with their married biological parents.

In each example of social reengineering Ive noted, progressives promised good things. Sadly, the exact opposite has happened. However well-meaning the motivation, reengineering what God has designed is not only unwise, but radical and dangerous, too.

Without evidence of success to which to point, supporters of these ill-fated ventures are left with but one choice: If you cant change unfavorable outcomes, you change the minds of people as to what is considered favorable and good.

Here lies the last great frontier and the last gasp for those determined to re-engineer marriage. Those committed to this form of radicalism have systematically broken down the cultural barrier to same sex marriage by desensitizing people on the issue, stigmatizing those who oppose the movement and potentially criminalizing anyone who stands in opposition to them. The irony in our cultural discussion currently, is if you support traditional marriage, you are the one perceived by the cultural elite to be the radical.

Consider the case of a New Mexico couple who own and operate a photography business. When they kindly refused to shoot a lesbian marriage ceremony, they were summarily brought up on human rights violations by the New Mexico Human Rights Commission. They were fined for not accepting the job. While on the other hand, Christian organizations are now being singled out and suppliers are threatening to no longer supply them with critical support functions like computer technology because of their stand in opposition to same-sex marriage. Those in favor of same-sex marriage do not see the contradiction in these two examples. One group must perform the services and is fined for not doing so (in the name of human rights); the other is allowed to default on their contract because of alleged bigoted behavior on the part of the religious organization (with no regard for religious expression).

If religious liberty is lost in America, we will cease to be the nation our Founders intended us to be. Our rights will no longer be derived from God but from man, and therefore, dangerously beholden to political despots. I dont think Thomas Jefferson intended that to be the outcome for our great nation when he wrote the famous Danbury Baptist Church letter which mentioned the separation of church and state. Contrary to conventional wisdom, President Jefferson was expressing a concern that the church needed to be protected from the state, not the state from the church. It appears his fears are now being realized.

Jim Daly is president and host of "Focus on the Family."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/ ... z1NJdkc5AN


The questions I have for debate are:

1. Is what happened to the New Mexico couple proof that gay marriage will threaten christians and the church from living our faith?

2. If gay marriage is legal in the entire US would churches be forced to recognize gay couples and be forced to hire gay people to positions even if that would be against our beliefs?

[lastcallhall]

What about the law and children getting a balanced accurate education is going to throw your children's moral compass off so much that you, as their parent, will not have more control over what they believe to be right? Or that they are going to just tack on 'the gay' whenever they get a chance? What in the law gives any indication to you that these things will be happening? You must really think little of your influence over your children.

I know my influence is great on my children and two of my three children (the third is 2) already love the Lord and are well on their way to becoming a strong bible believing christian

Oh ho. Now any teacher who gives lessons on homosexuals is automatically a liberal.

No but my guess is that the local schools won't hire an evangelical right wing christian like me to teach the class. They want someone to repeat the company line.

You are obviously fair and unbiased.

I follow the Bible and that keeps me fair an unbiased in the sense that I try not to judge people only sin.

In any case, doesn't matter to you, since your children get to be indoctrinated by Christians instead. Tell me, have you seen the documentary 'Jesus Camp'? Did it strike you as a good place to send children? I am just trying to guage your level of fundamentalism.

I have never seen the film, if I am right it was produced by Pelosi's kid and I am sure it is a left wing smear campaign. My level of fundamentalism is like a Pastor John Hagee, his views are very similar to mine. I always tell people I am to the right of Rush and the left of God, hope that helps.

Well thank goodness that we do not live in a theocracy, and I can count on my children getting taught crazy things like... accurate science and history.

They will not in a secular science class, can you prove evolution is true? They teach it as truth but a large majority of the population of the world would disagree.

You can instruct your children in Creationism for all I care, but you should recognize that it will severely limit their prospects later on in life.

Really? I am married, own a home, run a business, and do well for myself. I have many friends and feel I lead a good life. If my children are blessed the same way God has blessed me I am not sure how that would be bad or limit them in any way? Please explain?

It will also under prepare them for the real world, since they are going to have a very narrow and incomplete view of history.

How so? I love history are you saying I can't live in the "real world"?

Do you think your children should learn about the Crusades and the Inquisition? Or perhaps we should just remove those from the books too so that they don't get exposed to lessons that paint your religion in an unfavorable light.

Yes they should and they should learn that the christians were wrong.

We also shouldn't include anything on Islam, since it might make them go Muslim.

Yes and no, I have studied the Quran so I can talk to a muslim but I DO NOT want any class that would have them pray to Allah like they have in CA BTW.

They shouldn't learn about the racial discrimination movements and Martin Luther King Jr., because they might think it is okay to date black people.

They should hear all about it and love black people.

Yes I am being facetious a bit, but I am trying to (hopefully) hit a nerve and show you how utterly ridiculous your concerns sound.

My concerns remain

I want to say good, but I feel like this is a trap. I can practically hear Admiral Ackbar.

No parlor trick on this one

Ah hah! Yep. Come now ,sir. I gave you a whole page of historical information on homosexuals. You are *assuming* that they are going to gay up the classrooms every chance they get. It is all a logical fallacy (Slippery Slope) that I describe below.

It is not a slippery slope, I understand the term but reject the argument in this case. I have read way to many articles and heard way to many people speak to not understand the true intentions here.

Wow. Uh. Wow. I don't even know how to respond to that. Evolution... is a liberal propaganda piece. I'd almost think you were pulling my leg if I didn't know better.

I'm not pulling your leg, do you think many people on the right believe that? Is it true, no. Like global warming your side packages it as truth but that is far from reality.

Also... what in the HECK, man?! Can you *please* explain to me how Evolution is a liberal conspiracy? You just sort of drop in in there casually and it blows my mind. You act like it was made up by politicians, is an America only idea, and doesn't predate a lot of the current political structure. Can you justify your statement at ALL?!

I just did but I will go further, nobody can prove evolution and end the debate like you can say the earth is round and except for .00001% of the population you will have total agreement. Evolution is put out by the left as fact, evangelicals are called dumb or misinformed and yet it is not fact but like Hitler says if you say anything enough people will believe it and I think that is the goal here. There is no way a the same thing climbed out of the water became male and female worms and then somehow became male and female elephants. Call me dumb but I would never, ever believe that.

Now personally, I'd earnestly hope that you and your children get greater exposure to homosexual culture and homosexuals to the point where you can recognize that two mothers or two fathers are in fact, just as good as a mother and a father (better in a lot of cases).

Really? The studies I have seen say just the opposite where is your proof of that statement?

You see lastcallhall, you are being irrational in your fears because you have presented no reason for a logical progression of events.

I am not forcing you to believe what I do

[Autodidact]

You prefer your child to be taught lies? Or partial truths?

The truth and that is why I don't want a liberal teacher pushing an agenda down my childs throat.

Didn't you just tell us you don't want your child to be taught truths that you don't like?

I don't want my child taught anything against the word of God

And your religious beliefs should dictate the nation's public school curriculum?

[lastcallhall]

Next thing you know, they will be teaching our kids that women and blacks are our equals too! /sarcasm

Being a woman or black is not a sin, not the same argument

Your hate is the next one to be dealt with I think

Who do I hate? I know some gay people and love them like anyone else.

and I can only hope it will die with you and that your kids will be able to over look the bigoted indoctrination that you subjected them to (fully within your rights to do so too I freely admit). (Please note, I do not wish death on you, I only hope that the hate dies with you, I don't hope for you to die now by any means).

The church of Jesus Christ has been tried to be knocked out for 2,000 years and we are still going strong. You will never end the church nor will you ever stop people from believing the Bible and trusting Jesus. AMEN for that.

Let's face it, this generation is more excepting of women and blacks then say our grandparents generation. I just think you are holding on to your hate harder than some others of your generation (whatever generation that may be). Once my (and your?) generation die off, I think the world will look at the gay community much like it looks at women and blacks ect.... as our equals.

Either way, we should encourage acceptance of our fellow man.

Again who do I hate sir?

[Autodidact]

No but my guess is that the local schools won't hire an evangelical right wing christian like me to teach the class. They want someone to repeat the company line.

Well that depends. Are you going to teach reading, writing, math and history, or are you going to preach your religious beliefs at the pupils?

You are obviously fair and unbiased.

I follow the Bible and that keeps me fair an unbiased in the sense that I try not to judge people only sin.

Well thank goodness that we do not live in a theocracy, and I can count on my children getting taught crazy things like... accurate science and history.

They will not in a secular science class, can you prove evolution is true? They teach it as truth but a large majority of the population of the world would disagree.

I would respond to this, but I believe it's significantly OT and therefore not conformity with forum rules. I would be happy to discuss it in the appropriate forum, however.

You can instruct your children in Creationism for all I care, but you should recognize that it will severely limit their prospects later on in life.

Really? I am married, own a home, run a business, and do well for myself. I have many friends and feel I lead a good life. If my children are blessed the same way God has blessed me I am not sure how that would be bad or limit them in any way? Please explain?

It will also under prepare them for the real world, since they are going to have a very narrow and incomplete view of history.

How so? I love history are you saying I can't live in the "real world"?

Yes and no, I have studied the Quran so I can talk to a muslim but I DO NOT want any class that would have them pray to Allah like they have in CA BTW.

What about a class that has them pray to Jesus, is that o.k.?

Now personally, I'd earnestly hope that you and your children get greater exposure to homosexual culture and homosexuals to the point where you can recognize that two mothers or two fathers are in fact, just as good as a mother and a father (better in a lot of cases).

Really? The studies I have seen say just the opposite where is your proof of that statement?

I will be happy to cite the many studies that have concluded that children of same-sex parents do at least as well as children of different-sex parents, as well as the statements from child welfare and health advocacy organizations that say the same thing. Will they have any impact on your views?

I am not forcing you to believe what I do

No, but apparently you do want to force the public schools to conform to it.

[lastcallhall]

Here in NY gay marriage has just been legalized.

Romans 1:24-27
New King James Version (NKJV)

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

What would you suggest saying to innocent children of same sex marriages in public school when the issue comes up? It will come up, children are curious and smart, and want to know everything. Would you traumatize and frighten the child by telling it the parents are going to burn in hell, and that the child has no "real" parents? Is that what Christian tolerance and love says to do?

You tell them the truth that it is a sinful lifestyle and yes if anyone dies in their sin they will split the gates of hell wide open. I see that you do a person more harm by not telling them the truth of the lifestyle. They can reject it.

Yes, we are constantly moving towards a more just, civilized, and equitable society. It's called progress. Marriage equality will someday be national, International even, the same way racial equality is progressing today, it's an inevitable result of growing human enlightenment, understanding, and knowledge

.

We are moving more and more towards a moral sewar.

[lastcallhall]

You're not bigoted, but you think God is against my "lifestyle," despite the fact that your God does not prohibit it. O.K. So if children learn the truth about gay people in history, you're afraid they may think that homosexuality is acceptable to God?

Yes, I don not want my child taught anything that is against the word of God

Does that make sense to you? What does your right to preach whatever you believe have to do with what is taught in public school? Do you think teachers should be able to preach in school?

If the left can teach it's agenda then yes I should be able to preach in school for balance. Why do I have to hear something that I believe is untrue? The homosexual lifestyle is not acceptable to God and should not be presented that it is.

Let's say your children learn all about famous gay and lesbian people like Alan Turing, Barbara Jordan, Willa Cather and Leonard Bernstein. Does that somehow force them to be gay?

Can they learn about Billy Graham, DL Moody, and John Newton?

[Autodidact]

The church of Jesus Christ has been tried to be knocked out for 2,000 years and we are still going strong. You will never end the church nor will you ever stop people from believing the Bible and trusting Jesus. AMEN for that.

Nobody is criticizing or opposing Christianity. You do not speak for all Christians. What I am arguing against is your anti-gay bigotry and your goal of imposing discrimination against gay people. In your view, are those things Biblical?

Let's face it, this generation is more excepting of women and blacks then say our grandparents generation. I just think you are holding on to your hate harder than some others of your generation (whatever generation that may be). Once my (and your?) generation die off, I think the world will look at the gay community much like it looks at women and blacks ect.... as our equals.

Either way, we should encourage acceptance of our fellow man.

Again who do I hate sir?

I can't see into your heart; I only know your statements, which advocate discriminating against gay people, and demonstrate prejudice against gay people, liberals, teachers, historians, scientists and science.

[lastcallhall]

Well, if so and so was gay, should we lie about it? Does your religion require lying and covering up reality?

Don't bring it up, not relevant to learning

Are you a historian?

No but neither are the people pushing this agenda

[lastcallhall]

Well that depends. Are you going to teach reading, writing, math and history, or are you going to preach your religious beliefs at the pupils?

My point exactly the people pushing this agenda will also throw in that it is ok to have 2 mommies and that is normal and ok. They won't just teach so and so did this and move on they will "preach" what they want.

I will be happy to cite the many studies that have concluded that children of same-sex parents do at least as well as children of different-sex parents, as well as the statements from child welfare and health advocacy organizations that say the same thing. Will they have any impact on your views?

No because of two reasons the Bible is my ultimate authority and I have seen many studies from your side as well. Like most studies whoever is paying for the results usually gets what they want.

[lastcallhall]

Nobody is criticizing or opposing Christianity. You do not speak for all Christians.

I know I don't and that is too bad.

What I am arguing against is your anti-gay bigotry and your goal of imposing discrimination against gay people. In your view, are those things Biblical?

No discrimination, you can live with and do what you wish in your private life but don't ask me to endorse your lifestyle or accept it.

I can't see into your heart; I only know your statements, which advocate discriminating against gay people, and demonstrate prejudice against gay people, liberals, teachers, historians, scientists and science.

Thank you, no hate, just a person who stands up for the Bible