Free Will vs. Predestination

[ByFaithAlone]

I've been researching the notion of free will vs. predestination and am getting dragged down in terminology and complex theology.

I was just wondering if it would be possible for someone to explain what they believe about this issue. I have seen scriptural evidence from both sides but would like even more. Thanks

[Atlantis]

I voted for free will, but I was very tempted to vote for both. I used to believe in predestination. A lot. Then some Catholics got to me haha.

In all seriousness, the best way I might explain the relationship between our will and God's will is that first, God gives us what we want, that we are free to love or reject him-- because love requires this.

But I think any study of freedom should lead to the truth that God is freedom, in that we are most free when we choose to follow his will. Any other choice is a choice to imprison oneself. If that makes any sense at all.

As for predestination-- there is a strong case for it scripturally. Really strong. I used to say, when I believed in predestination, that we had free will in as much as we were able to choose what we wanted; however, God's will was sovereign because he created us exactly the way we are, chose when we would be born (and by default, any and all life experiences we might have, simply based on timing).

I don't really have a good solid reason for switching from predestination to free will. Mostly my reasoning is that it more correctly aligns with the personality of the God I've come to know over the years. So there you have it.

[Atlantis]

Atlantis, you will excuse me if I point out that your post about free will seems Orwellian to me. We are most free when we give up our freedom?

Yeahh, it was poorly explained. Let me try something better.

Hm. What I believe is that when we choose those things that are our will (and by 'our will', here, I mean to suggest things that are explicitly evil and/or unhealthy-- I don't think God cares much if we have toast instead of cereal or prefer Mumford and Sons over Lady Gaga) we choose to imprison ourselves within our own personal hells.

For instance, with drug addiction. We choose these things that are not what God has intended for us and in choosing them, we become shells of our former selves. You simply aren't free if you're addicted to drugs. You simply aren't free if you have to constantly remember the things you've done wrong.

God (and his will), in the typical Christian belief, frees us from guilt and sin.

I am pleased to hear that you have come to know God and his personality over your few short years. I have not. How did you meet? Are you sure that it is him or is it a projection of your own values that you think is God? Do you think that you could get Him to post on our site, and authoritatively clear up some of the debates?

ohh, you're a snarky one. XD But, sure, I'll let him know, next time I ring him up.

And as you will likely be restricted from replying here, I'll be glad to receive any responses via PM or some such other concoction.

[Braveheart]

Why?
- common sense
- I believe everything calvin said is wrong and wish he never been born

BTW, why limit yourself to scripture proof texts? ....

That last bit sounds like it would come from an enemy of God's word... but that can't be true so I guess I'm just taking it wrong.

Anyway, so you think that Augustine and Calvin had no common sense?

Sounds a just a trifle arrogant to me, but that's just me.

Every bible-believing Christian believes in predestination on some level. I'm with otseng, I believe in both.

We have 99% free will but not full autonomy. Folks like slopeshoulder and the non-Theists, they are all for 100% autonomy--it's the "common sense" consensus among them I reckon--especially among many of those 'highly educated' ones... who think people who believe the bible are beneath them.

Adam and Eve had 99% free will, and thanks to the friendly humanist serpent, they were convinced that only full autonomy is tolerable. That advice worked out real well, didn't it.

Question for Hobbes: Do you believe that God decides who is and isn't going to hell and heaven? John Calvin believed that God chose, and that everything was predestined.

[Adstar]

I often sound like a calvanist to people but i am not.

I believe God Predestines people and He does so through His Foreknowledge

For God foreknew all history before He created the universe and that included all the lives of every person who would ever exist.

calvinist seem to either disregard the word foreknew or try to interpret it to mean something other than what it actually means.

The universe is space and time and matter. All these things are the creation of God. God is not bound by His creation. God is not a part of His creation. Therefore God is not bound by universe time. He sees all our times from His time and i believe His time is eternity.

So we exist in our time living with free will and making our decisions as to what we will embrace and what we will reject. From the foundation of the world God foreknew our lives and what we would embrace and what we would reject. From that foreknowledge He has predestined those what will have eternity with him and those that will not have eternity with Him.

So God did not create one person forced to accept His will.
God did not create another person forced to reject His will.

God reveals His will and men have the free will to accept it or reject it.

From his foreknowledge He has written the names of all people into the book of life from the foundation of the world.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[EduChris]

I've been researching the notion of free will vs. predestination and am getting dragged down in terminology and complex theology.

I was just wondering if it would be possible for someone to explain what they believe about this issue. I have seen scriptural evidence from both sides but would like even more. Thanks

Freedom: We have free will, though the freedom we experience now in this world is diminished because of sin--not just personal sin, but the ripple effect sin has had through families, societies, economic and political systems, international empires, and even the natural world. So we have freedom that is not functioning as it should; our freedom is weighted toward sin; the gift has turned into cement shoes that pull us down rather than help us swim.

Predestination: I do not believe that God has predestined anyone to hell. If anything, God predestines everyone to heaven, though it may be possible for some to refuse the offer.

Foreknowledge: God knows the future in a probablistic sense. God knows all future possibilites; he literally knows everything that is possible (or will be possible) for each person. But God gives us the freedom to turn our possibilities into realities. And God engages us in a relationship, which means he responds according to the possibilites that we choose to turn into our own realities.

Sovereighty: There are (rare) occasions when God intervenes and accomplishes his will through our actions or despite our actions. I liken God to a good parent; God wants us to develop and grow and learn from our mistakes, but like the good parent who steps in occasionally, God can bring about his will to accomplish a greater good (good in the short term or, more likely, the long term).

[Braveheart]

I've been researching the notion of free will vs. predestination and am getting dragged down in terminology and complex theology.

I was just wondering if it would be possible for someone to explain what they believe about this issue. I have seen scriptural evidence from both sides but would like even more. Thanks

Freedom: We have free will, though the freedom we experience now in this world is diminished because of sin--not just personal sin, but the ripple effect sin has had through families, societies, economic and political systems, international empires, and even the natural world. So we have freedom that is not functioning as it should; our freedom is weighted toward sin; the gift has turned into cement shoes that pull us down rather than help us swim.

Predestination: I do not believe that God has predestined anyone to hell. If anything, God predestines everyone to heaven, though it may be possible for some to refuse the offer.

Foreknowledge: God knows the future in a probablistic sense. God knows all future possibilites; he literally knows everything that is possible (or will be possible) for each person. But God gives us the freedom to turn our possibilities into realities. And God engages us in a relationship, which means he responds according to the possibilites that we choose to turn into our own realities.

Sovereighty: There are (rare) occasions when God intervenes and accomplishes his will through our actions or despite our actions. I liken God to a good parent; God wants us to develop and grow and learn from our mistakes, but like the good parent who steps in occasionally, God can bring about his will to accomplish a greater good (good in the short term or, more likely, the long term).

Thank you Educhris and Adstar for your answers, but my question is for Hobbes, and he has not yet answered. Hobbes? I'm waiting.

[melissa]

I've been researching the notion of free will vs. predestination and am getting dragged down in terminology and complex theology.

I was just wondering if it would be possible for someone to explain what they believe about this issue. I have seen scriptural evidence from both sides but would like even more. Thanks

Hi ByFaithAlone,

I would like to reply to your question. This subject produced a crisis of faith for me a number of years ago, and finding a satisfactory answer basically saved my faith. My question was "Why do some believe while others don't?," which, I think, is another version of your question.

Here goes. People have free will, in that they are free to choose whatever they most desire. However, one thing a person will never choose, in his fallen state, is Christ, because his will is captive to sin. He will not choose Christ because he doesn't want to and he doesn't want to because he is "Dead in tresspasses and sin,"(Eph. 2:1), an "enemy of God" (Rom. 5:10) and "he cannot please God," (Rom. 8:7). "Whosoever will may come," (Rev. 22:17) but, he will not come to Jesus because he doesn't want to.

So, what hope is there for anyone to come? There are an uncountable number of people that the Father has given the Son, and they will come to Him (John 6:37) They will come because the Father irresistably draws them: "No one CAN (is able to) come to the Son except the Father draws him," John 6:44. When the father
draws him to Jesus (a more correct translation of "draw" is "drag," as in dragging a dead thing) he is brought to spiritual life (Eph. 2:5) and for the first time his will is truly free, in that he can respond to God. People always do what they most want to do, and at that moment, being shown the Son, the Lord Jesus is more lovely and more desirable than anything he has ever known, and so he freely chooses Jesus. Hope this helps.

[dianaiad]

I've been researching the notion of free will vs. predestination and am getting dragged down in terminology and complex theology.

I was just wondering if it would be possible for someone to explain what they believe about this issue. I have seen scriptural evidence from both sides but would like even more. Thanks

As someone else has said, "I choose free will."

Why?

Because...if we HAVE free will (and I think we do,) then what we decide matters. It matters to us and it matters to others. If we do NOT have free will, then what we do matters. It matters to us and it matters to others; whether that choice is written by us or by some divine playwright, it's the same.

You can debate the issue all you wish, but for my part, the very fact that people actually DEBATE it proves that free will exists.

Besides, even if it doesn't, we may as well pretend it does and act accordingly, right?

[yaright]

I've been researching the notion of free will vs. predestination and am getting dragged down in terminology and complex theology.

I was just wondering if it would be possible for someone to explain what they believe about this issue. I have seen scriptural evidence from both sides but would like even more. Thanks

From outside sources I can see the desire of wanting to know being frustrated. The answer is so simple that many reject the idea in lieu of something profound with lots of important words.

Our bible expresses the answer by means of obedience, using creation language to teach us who we are and why we are that way in God's sight.

Rather than going into detail concerning the creature nature, I'll gladly share with you that the answer is found in the direction your feet go as you journey through life.

There are two types of authority that are opposed to one another. The first mentioned is the reasoning of men doing the things which seem right to a man (sitting in the seat of authority. Jesus reveals something hidden in the things which seem right to us, and we literally cannot see this without it being revealed by a greater truth (Jesus).

Our Lord pointed out to Peter that Satan concerns himself with the things of men (not God). This has been since the beginning of creation, when Adam and Eve were told not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. When God seemed to be out of sight, Adam and Eve examined the fruit of that tree. Satan said, "Surely you will not die." So, because this fruit seemed right to them, they ate of that fruit, and guess what happened next. They died into sin, and could not see what had taken place. We are so blind in our sin, we cannot see what took place; It seems we did not die. This is why Jesus said Satan was a murder from the beginning. Adam did not know what he was saying when he pointed out that Eve is the mother of all living.


When we are called by The Word of God, repent and follow in the teaching of Jesus, there is a different type of authority over our lives that teaches both the flesh and the spirit (two parts). Please note though, only one part of you can be redeemed. This understanding is hidden in plain sight in the teaching of Law and words of the Prophets; And fulfilled in the New Testament by Jesus.

We are given a choice of who we serve. To help a person understand free will as a child, and from a parent's perspective on a personal level, there is a necessity to examine life on a personal level when we come to God with these questions. It is more valuable than a thousand words. It takes careful consideration.



by definition, noun:
The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion does not contradict itself. Nor does it contradict the bible


It took the workings of my own life closely examined to understand something as seemingly elusive as the question of free will. It is taught that we are made in the image of God. That just made things all the more complicated for me; until I examined life from a parent's perspective in this manner:

When my first son was born, I came to realize that I knew him before he knew me. I chose him. He did not chose me. When I saw this, some of the mysteries of life began to take shape.


It helps to consider both ends of this spectrum. When we speak with doubt concerning free will; we wear the shoes of one who is yet under the teaching of the parents, where the constraints seemed to amplify the lack of free will for the child; when in actuality the constraints were being loosened as the child grows in understanding. Free will is increasing.

After the child leaves the teaching of the parents, free will is exercised, even into a thing some call sin while others call it breaking the law; And speaks of the things which take place while living a life of free will. These choices we personally make are not made by our parents. If we say we have no free will, by that we are saying we cannot be held accountable for the things we say and do.

Back to the parent that is no longer the child; While carefully considering the parent knew the child before the child knew the parent;

Christians tend to believe God knew them before they knew Him. Just because God knew us before we knew Him does not mean He did not give us free will. To say we do not have free will is to say we do not want to be held accountable. But in our beginnings we are servants who learn the teachings of the ruler of the house. But when that person gains understanding; Jesus said we are no longer servants because we do have understanding. Jesus then refers to us as His friend, if we obey Him.

The Apostle Paul speaks of this 'free will' in a manner that reveals choices we personally make while following in the teaching of Jesus. 1 Corinthians 3;13-

The range of our actions concerning Paul's teaching is likely debated with no end; But the principle of free will is revealed in this and many other examples of Biblical language.

I don't mean to limit a person by the things I give witness of; At best it is just one example.

It seemed in time past that I struggled with the confinement of 'free will' as if I was a victim who said, "I did not choose to be born!". For me, proving the lack of free will to spite God's will was an excuse to go in the wrong direction; And I did.

I was right. I did not choose to be born; my parents chose me, and they knew me before I knew them. It is my understanding that these things are the mere image that God chose me, I did not choose Him; and He knew me before I knew Him.

[AcrylicInk]

I believe both. We were discussing this at a Bible study recently and someone came up with the 'Sat-Nav analogy'.

There is a destination that God wants a person to reach, and he'll tell you what to do and where to go. But you always have the choice to either follow the path the sat-nav has laid out, or you can ignore it and go a different way. Sometimes you'll be told to turn around, and sometimes God will give you a new path to reach your final destination. But the more diversions you take, the longer it will take to reach your destination and you might run out of fuel before you get there...