The Gay agenda

[lastcallhall]

This is an article from Jim Daly on Foxnews and it looks like what a few of us conservative christians believe is the gay agenda moving forward to get marriage passed.

I am, naturally, personally opposed to the legalization of same-sex marriage for the simple but profound reason that it violates and contradicts the sacred text of the Bible, which I believe to be true and inspired. But on what basis should I expect people who dont believe as I do to likewise oppose same-sex marriage?

On the basis of logic, reason, common sense and the fact that preservation of traditional marriage is in the best interest of the common good, as evidenced by any number of factors, including reams of social science data and thousands of years of history.

Any discussion on the definition of marriage incites strong emotional reaction. And those of us within the orthodox Christian community understand that many in the culture see this issue very differently, and hold to very passionate views on the subject. We understand that on this matter, in some circles, that never the twain shall meet. Nevertheless, this difference of opinion does not preclude us the privilege of championing a principle we hold dear, especially since its our Christian faith that motivates us to support and defend what we believe to be Gods blueprint for human relationship. In the last half-century, progressives have exercised their own rights of cultural engagement, aggressively championing sweeping cultural changes on numerous levels. Although we may disagree with them, we certainly dont begrudge them the right to engage the process. But in this pursuit to redefine marriage, wouldnt it make sense to consider the outcomes of prior social reengineering efforts?

In the late 1960s, no-fault divorce promised to simplify, streamline and decrease the contentiousness surrounding marital breakup. Instead, it only encouraged struggling spouses to throw in the towel. Fathers abandoned their families in droves. Poverty levels skyrocketed. Prison populations increased at dramatic levels, a consequence of kids now growing up without a father in the home.

A few years later, in 1973, the Supreme Court legalized abortion in all 50 states. Supporters heralded a new era of responsibility, where every child would be a wanted child. Tragically, over 48 million babies have now been aborted and the beauty of life has been cheapened as a result, while child abuse has skyrocketed.

The expansion of welfare promised to alleviate human suffering. While in some ways noble in intent, it disincentivized work, undermined the family unit and created a perpetual cycle of dependency and poverty. Fathers were no longer needed to be an integral part of the family.

Cohabitation is yet another experiment which promised to liberate couples from the burden of marriage. The number of couples living together outside of marriage has increased ten-fold between 1960 and 2000. Over 12 million unmarried partners now live together in the United States. The result? Cohabitation not only decreases a persons appetite for marriage, it also increases the risk of divorce, should the couple ever tie the knot.

Further, a home with two unmarried partners has proven to be the most dangerous place for children in the U.S. Children who live with their mother and boyfriend are 11 times more likely to be sexually, physically, or emotionally abused than children living with their married biological parents.

In each example of social reengineering Ive noted, progressives promised good things. Sadly, the exact opposite has happened. However well-meaning the motivation, reengineering what God has designed is not only unwise, but radical and dangerous, too.

Without evidence of success to which to point, supporters of these ill-fated ventures are left with but one choice: If you cant change unfavorable outcomes, you change the minds of people as to what is considered favorable and good.

Here lies the last great frontier and the last gasp for those determined to re-engineer marriage. Those committed to this form of radicalism have systematically broken down the cultural barrier to same sex marriage by desensitizing people on the issue, stigmatizing those who oppose the movement and potentially criminalizing anyone who stands in opposition to them. The irony in our cultural discussion currently, is if you support traditional marriage, you are the one perceived by the cultural elite to be the radical.

Consider the case of a New Mexico couple who own and operate a photography business. When they kindly refused to shoot a lesbian marriage ceremony, they were summarily brought up on human rights violations by the New Mexico Human Rights Commission. They were fined for not accepting the job. While on the other hand, Christian organizations are now being singled out and suppliers are threatening to no longer supply them with critical support functions like computer technology because of their stand in opposition to same-sex marriage. Those in favor of same-sex marriage do not see the contradiction in these two examples. One group must perform the services and is fined for not doing so (in the name of human rights); the other is allowed to default on their contract because of alleged bigoted behavior on the part of the religious organization (with no regard for religious expression).

If religious liberty is lost in America, we will cease to be the nation our Founders intended us to be. Our rights will no longer be derived from God but from man, and therefore, dangerously beholden to political despots. I dont think Thomas Jefferson intended that to be the outcome for our great nation when he wrote the famous Danbury Baptist Church letter which mentioned the separation of church and state. Contrary to conventional wisdom, President Jefferson was expressing a concern that the church needed to be protected from the state, not the state from the church. It appears his fears are now being realized.

Jim Daly is president and host of "Focus on the Family."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/ ... z1NJdkc5AN


The questions I have for debate are:

1. Is what happened to the New Mexico couple proof that gay marriage will threaten christians and the church from living our faith?

2. If gay marriage is legal in the entire US would churches be forced to recognize gay couples and be forced to hire gay people to positions even if that would be against our beliefs?

[Strider324]

In fact there has probably never been a time in history when more are coming to faith in Christ than today.

Eh, not so much....

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm

This might surprise you, but there's a world outside of the US:

That's a lovely review of a book whereby the author 'believes' christianity will grow. Does he cite any reliable statistics? Can you? I'm not typically swayed by someones 'beliefs' about a subject.

Thanx in advance!

The book is loaded with such reliable statistics. Africa, for example, was 10% Christian in 1900, today it is 46%. The number of Christians has increased from 10 million to 360 million in that time. Christians in China have grown to over 100 million, making it one of the biggest Christian nations. The churches that have grown most rapidly in the global South are morally conservative and evangelical. Christianity is dying in the West but is explosively growing in other parts of the world, just as it once moved from the Middle East to Europe.

Than must really grind you God-haters, huh?

The fact that your religion is being deserted by citizens of our most educated and enlightened countries and now only finding traction in the most intellectually repressive, genocidal, uneducated and underdeveloped nations?

Yes, consider me well grinded.....

[Strider324]

You should be very happy about that situation. The time will come when religion and myth will be as out-dated and reviled as which craft, and then, you will be glad that you can't be discriminated against.

Bob

Don't hold your breath, the death of Christianity has been predicted for 2,000 years, and tens of millions have been killed in the futile effort. In fact there has probably never been a time in history when more are coming to faith in Christ than today. Truly, the church is an anvil that has worn out many hammers.

I have a suggestion for Elaine here in NM the next time two gays want her services: During the shoot excercise your rights to free expression of religion and tell them that homosexual activity is an abomination in God's sight that leads to hell, and that they need to repent and be saved. Perhaps then they will feel more comfortable with another photographer.

I assume your numbers include those whom Christianity burned alive in a festive public setting as the faithful cheered?

Full disclosure and everything.....

'Tens of millions' would necessarily mean the recent atheistic Communist regimes. Stalin killed twice as many a week at one point than the Spanish Inquisition did in it's entire history.

How many did Stalin tie up and burn alive?

Would it matter to the victims? With the numbers Stalin killed that would have been far too slow. The burnings by 'Christians' were done in spite of and contrary to the teachings of Christ, Stalin's were done because of the belief system of atheistic communism, i.e., man is a cosmic accident whose life is of no more intrinsic worth than a dog, there are no God-given moral standards or eternal rewards and punishment, etc.

You tell me. Would it matter to you whether you were burned to death over several agonizing minutes in the name of a benevolent god as opposed to being double tapped in the head?

[dianaiad]

You should be very happy about that situation. The time will come when religion and myth will be as out-dated and reviled as which craft, and then, you will be glad that you can't be discriminated against.

Bob

Don't hold your breath, the death of Christianity has been predicted for 2,000 years, and tens of millions have been killed in the futile effort. In fact there has probably never been a time in history when more are coming to faith in Christ than today. Truly, the church is an anvil that has worn out many hammers.

I have a suggestion for Elaine here in NM the next time two gays want her services: During the shoot excercise your rights to free expression of religion and tell them that homosexual activity is an abomination in God's sight that leads to hell, and that they need to repent and be saved. Perhaps then they will feel more comfortable with another photographer.

I assume your numbers include those whom Christianity burned alive in a festive public setting as the faithful cheered?

Full disclosure and everything.....

'Tens of millions' would necessarily mean the recent atheistic Communist regimes. Stalin killed twice as many a week at one point than the Spanish Inquisition did in it's entire history.

How many did Stalin tie up and burn alive?

Would it matter to the victims? With the numbers Stalin killed that would have been far too slow. The burnings by 'Christians' were done in spite of and contrary to the teachings of Christ, Stalin's were done because of the belief system of atheistic communism, i.e., man is a cosmic accident whose life is of no more intrinsic worth than a dog, there are no God-given moral standards or eternal rewards and punishment, etc.

You tell me. Would it matter to you whether you were burned to death over several agonizing minutes in the name of a benevolent god as opposed to being double tapped in the head?

Let me see if I have this right:

You figure that Stalin (who, by the way, did not 'double tap" people. Mostly he starved them to death) was better than the Christians because even though he murdered far more people, at least he didn't burn them to death?

Do I have that right?

Are we REALLY playing "He who murders the fastest wins?"

[East of Eden]

In fact there has probably never been a time in history when more are coming to faith in Christ than today.

Eh, not so much....

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm

This might surprise you, but there's a world outside of the US:

That's a lovely review of a book whereby the author 'believes' christianity will grow. Does he cite any reliable statistics? Can you? I'm not typically swayed by someones 'beliefs' about a subject.

Thanx in advance!

The book is loaded with such reliable statistics. Africa, for example, was 10% Christian in 1900, today it is 46%. The number of Christians has increased from 10 million to 360 million in that time. Christians in China have grown to over 100 million, making it one of the biggest Christian nations. The churches that have grown most rapidly in the global South are morally conservative and evangelical. Christianity is dying in the West but is explosively growing in other parts of the world, just as it once moved from the Middle East to Europe.

Than must really grind you God-haters, huh?

The fact that your religion is being deserted by citizens of our most educated and enlightened countries and now only finding traction in the most intellectually repressive, genocidal, uneducated and underdeveloped nations?

Yes, consider me well grinded.....

Right, black and Chinese folks just aren't as smart as us, right? As far as 'underdeveloped', China is about to overtake us economically in a few years, and the growth in Christianity there is taking place mainly among the more affluent and better educated.

Education separated from morality and common sense is worthless. The electorate that brought Hitler to power was probably the most educated on earth at the time.

[Strider324]

You should be very happy about that situation. The time will come when religion and myth will be as out-dated and reviled as which craft, and then, you will be glad that you can't be discriminated against.

Bob

Don't hold your breath, the death of Christianity has been predicted for 2,000 years, and tens of millions have been killed in the futile effort. In fact there has probably never been a time in history when more are coming to faith in Christ than today. Truly, the church is an anvil that has worn out many hammers.

I have a suggestion for Elaine here in NM the next time two gays want her services: During the shoot excercise your rights to free expression of religion and tell them that homosexual activity is an abomination in God's sight that leads to hell, and that they need to repent and be saved. Perhaps then they will feel more comfortable with another photographer.

I assume your numbers include those whom Christianity burned alive in a festive public setting as the faithful cheered?

Full disclosure and everything.....

'Tens of millions' would necessarily mean the recent atheistic Communist regimes. Stalin killed twice as many a week at one point than the Spanish Inquisition did in it's entire history.

How many did Stalin tie up and burn alive?

Would it matter to the victims? With the numbers Stalin killed that would have been far too slow. The burnings by 'Christians' were done in spite of and contrary to the teachings of Christ, Stalin's were done because of the belief system of atheistic communism, i.e., man is a cosmic accident whose life is of no more intrinsic worth than a dog, there are no God-given moral standards or eternal rewards and punishment, etc.

You tell me. Would it matter to you whether you were burned to death over several agonizing minutes in the name of a benevolent god as opposed to being double tapped in the head?

Let me see if I have this right:

You figure that Stalin (who, by the way, did not 'double tap" people. Mostly he starved them to death) was better than the Christians because even though he murdered far more people, at least he didn't burn them to death?

Do I have that right?

Are we REALLY playing "He who murders the fastest wins?"

Whoa, Di. You're forgetting something. You don't get to play anymore until you admit your error in accusing me of engaging in the ad numerum fallacy and your total misunderstanding of the fallacy. It's an intellectual integrity thing. You either have it or you don't.

Which is it?

[Meow Mix]

I'm still trying to figure out how it's in any way justifiable to oppress me because of something some other people did.

If pagans sued a photographer that didn't want to shoot an idolatrous wedding and won, would it be justified to flock to the booths to vote against the legality of idol worshippers to wed -- even those who had no part in such shenanigans?

[micatala]

I'm still trying to figure out how it's in any way justifiable to oppress me because of something some other people did.

If pagans sued a photographer that didn't want to shoot an idolatrous wedding and won, would it be justified to flock to the booths to vote against the legality of idol worshippers to wed -- even those who had no part in such shenanigans?

THis is a very good point.

Note also that this suit occurred without gay marriage being legal in this jurisdiction. In other words, this suit is not the result of legalizing gay marriage, and so it seems the legality of gay marriage is somewhat irrelevant here.

[Strider324]

Right, black and Chinese folks just aren't as smart as us, right?

Wow, went to the Race Card already, huh? That's telling.

Yes, African nations are in general highly undeveloped with an inferior educational system that suffers from the fact that these nations first have to learn how to effectively FEED their children - and keep them from being raped and murdered by rival tribes, factions, and religious and ethnic groups - before they can EDUCATE them. It's certainly no surprise that these desperate peoples would be suckered into Christianity - even educated people are irresistably seduced by the Snake Oil of Eternal Life, neh? Regardless of your apparent bias, its an Africa thing, not a Race thing - unless you think there are only Blacks in Africa....

As far as 'underdeveloped', China is about to overtake us economically in a few years...

China doesn't qualify as underdeveloped, they qualify under 'Repressive'. It's one of them there Commie nations you were just expressing your disdain for. And that regime has the same attitude towards religion - as the Little Red Book makes clear. Luckily for those citizens that horrible Atheist country has more tolerance than Stalin. Or perhaps a nation of over 1.3 billion isn't as easily impressed with seeing less than 10% of its people opt for mysticism over reality. It's similarly no surprise that a people living under a repressive regime would have citizens that yearn for the Brass Ring promised by religion. Hasn't that always been the tactic of Christianity? Locate the most desperate people and prosyletize like hell til Jesus returns (which of course will be very soon....)?

Education separated from morality and common sense is worthless.

Dang bro, I think you just summarized my experience with Revealed Faith!


'What profit has not this fable of Christ brought us?'

[lastcallhall]

'What profit has not this fable of Christ brought us?

A common idea on this thread is christianity is the problem and your quote seems to question the good Jesus has brought, you mean outside of eternal life? And the argument that the smart, enlightened people have all the answers and are too wise to fall for the rouse that is christianity, tell me are we better off going down the moral sewar that is secular humanism? Where is the utopia that we have been promised by educating man?

[East of Eden]

Right, black and Chinese folks just aren't as smart as us, right?

Wow, went to the Race Card already, huh? That's telling.

Of you, who pretty much brought it up.

Yes, African nations are in general highly undeveloped with an inferior educational system that suffers from the fact that these nations first have to learn how to effectively FEED their children - and keep them from being raped and murdered by rival tribes, factions, and religious and ethnic groups - before they can EDUCATE them.

Sounds like inner-city America.

It's certainly no surprise that these desperate peoples would be suckered into Christianity - even educated people are irresistably seduced by the Snake Oil of Eternal Life, neh? Regardless of your apparent bias, its an Africa thing, not a Race thing - unless you think there are only Blacks in Africa....

Perhaps the desperate ones can see their true need better. Wealth tends to promise what only God can deliver, true satisfaction, security, etc. Imagine the Titanic moments after the iceberg struck it. Who had a greater grasp on the danger - the crew on the bottom level fighting the flood or those in a tux dancing at a ball on the upper levels?

China doesn't qualify as underdeveloped, they qualify under 'Repressive'.

I predict the growing Christian influence will mellow the repression and lack of human rights.

It's one of them there Commie nations you were just expressing your disdain for. And that regime has the same attitude towards religion - as the Little Red Book makes clear.

Do you like that?

Luckily for those citizens that horrible Atheist country has more tolerance than Stalin.

I believe the body count under Mao of that atheistic regime was much higher than Stalin's.

Or perhaps a nation of over 1.3 billion isn't as easily impressed with seeing less than 10% of its people opt for mysticism over reality.

Christianity is reality, as growing numbers are realizing.

It's similarly no surprise that a people living under a repressive regime would have citizens that yearn for the Brass Ring promised by religion. Hasn't that always been the tactic of Christianity? Locate the most desperate people and prosyletize like hell til Jesus returns (which of course will be very soon....)?

We are all desperate and in need of salvation, whether you recognize it or not. Funny how most people recognize there is something wrong with the world that needs fixing.