Is God The Master Magician?

[Bro Dave]

Is God The Master Magician?

It is a truism that the more intelligent the person, the easier it is for the magician to baffle them with misdirection and slight of hand. And so it appears is the case here. Those of high intellect are beguiled into believing God’s vanishing illusion. The difference with this Magician is that He works his magic not for our entertainment, but for our growth. Were He to remain visible and therefore directly accessible, our entire focus would move from solving the life dramas that make us grow, to demanding that God perform other magic to solve them for us. And so, while remaining available to those who seek his support, he remains completely hidden to those most in need of growth. Pretty neat trick, don’t you agree?

Bro Dave

[McCulloch]

Yes, God certainly is the master magician. Once upon a time, God provided rain, caused crops to grow and made the sun to rise. Now it appears as if all he did was to provide the initial spark and the laws of the universe and all he does is to provide psychological comfort to those who need it. Yes, as science progresses the God-of-the-gaps shrinks and shrinks.

[QED]

Your OP seems a little odd to me. First you tell us "that the more intelligent the person, the easier it is for the magician to baffle them with misdirection and slight of hand... Those of high intellect are beguiled into believing God’s vanishing illusion" By which you mean that material realists are probing around for God but can only report back that he is totally absent?

Then you say it's essential for our growth for him to be invisible -- presumably the less visible the better and in the extreme case, the Atheist gets the biggest benefit of growth possible through a total rejection of God. Is this really what you meant to say?

You do realize that a non-existent God can perform this trick just as well.

[juliod]

It is a truism that the more intelligent the person, the easier it is for the magician to baffle them with misdirection and slight of hand.

I would call that a falsism. It's true that many otherwise intelligent people allow themseleves to be decieved by fakes and charletans, in the general case it is the less intelligent who are most easily victimized by supernaturalists.

And so, while remaining available to those who seek his support, he remains completely hidden to those most in need of growth.

So you characterize people who reject superstition as in need of something you call "growth". Strange, considering that we usually consider it a sign of growth when children stop believing in the Tooth Fairy.

Anyway, god is not available to those who seek his support. Prayer, incantations, spells, etc, do not have any effect on the outcome of real events.

DanZ

[Bro Dave]

Your OP seems a little odd to me. First you tell us "that the more intelligent the person, the easier it is for the magician to baffle them with misdirection and slight of hand... Those of high intellect are beguiled into believing God’s vanishing illusion" By which you mean that material realists are probing around for God but can only report back that he is totally absent?

Yup, they're looking for a whale in the dessert, but finding none, concluding whales are just myths.

Then you say it's essential for our growth for him to be invisible -- presumably the less visible the better and in the extreme case, the Atheist gets the biggest benefit of growth possible through a total rejection of God. Is this really what you meant to say?

Not quite. What I'm saying is that this universe is designed for our growth. Having God visible with all the answers hardly inspires us to tackle our problems, and to grow from them. (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...)

You do realize that a non-existent God can perform this trick just as well.

A non-existand God could not perform at all, and it is his behind the scene support that make the "play" successful".

Bro dave

[Bro Dave]

[quote="juliod]
Anyway, god is not available to those who seek his support. Prayer, incantations, spells, etc, do not have any effect on the outcome of real events.

DanZ[/quote]

God is interested in the material events in our lives, only to the extend that they bring about spiritual growth. You want material tricks, see a material magician.

Bro Dave

[QED]

Your OP seems a little odd to me. First you tell us "that the more intelligent the person, the easier it is for the magician to baffle them with misdirection and slight of hand... Those of high intellect are beguiled into believing God’s vanishing illusion" By which you mean that material realists are probing around for God but can only report back that he is totally absent?

Yup, they're looking for a whale in the dessert, but finding none, concluding whales are just myths.

But they're out looking for a Whale because everyone is going around saying that a Whale is influencing the dessert in a big way. What they find is that all the influences can be accounted for by things other than Whales. The conclusion is that it is not a Whale that's doing it. After all, how would a Whale come to be in a desert in the first place?

Then you say it's essential for our growth for him to be invisible -- presumably the less visible the better and in the extreme case, the Atheist gets the biggest benefit of growth possible through a total rejection of God. Is this really what you meant to say?

Not quite. What I'm saying is that this universe is designed for our growth. Having God visible with all the answers hardly inspires us to tackle our problems, and to grow from them. (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...)

Pay no attention If only humanity would heed your advice. Then we could all take full responsibility for our own conduct and stop acting as if we've all been given divine sanction to go ahead and do whatever pops into our heads.

[mrmufin]

Were He to remain visible and therefore directly accessible, our entire focus would move from solving the life dramas that make us grow, to demanding that God perform other magic to solve them for us.

There's another angle to that... Some folks have a tough time making a useful distinction between that which is entirely unobserveable and that which is entirely nonexistent. The presence of the magician--coupled with some sense of expected outcomes--makes the unexpected outcome of an event seem "magical." Take away the magician(s) entirely and we start to look for alternative (and often rather accurate) explanations for the otherwise unexplained outcomes of certain events.

To a large extent, we are in agreement about solving the life dramas that make us grow: do so without any direct access to tha magician, and without the tool of "magic." We differ on one fundamental issue: what, if anything, is behind the curtain? If we could only agree on a means to pull back the curtain... but the believers always avoid describing the magician in some testable, falsifiable terms...

And so, while remaining available to those who seek his support, he remains completely hidden to those most in need of growth. Pretty neat trick, don’t you agree?

Seems a bit ironic that the gods should remain entirely hidden to someone like myself, who is most likely in desperate "need of growth." How could us skeptical folks have some sense of certainty that the available support offered to the mature is from the god(s), and not from other intangible, philosophical ideals that exist only as concepts?

A neat trick? No; I see it more as a hoax...

Regards,
mrmufin

[Bro Dave]

Were He to remain visible and therefore directly accessible, our entire focus would move from solving the life dramas that make us grow, to demanding that God perform other magic to solve them for us.

There's another angle to that... Some folks have a tough time making a useful distinction between that which is entirely unobserveable and that which is entirely nonexistent The presence of the magician--coupled with some sense of expected outcomes--makes the unexpected outcome of an event seem "magical." Take away the magician(s) entirely and we start to look for alternative (and often rather accurate) explanations for the otherwise unexplained outcomes of certain events. .

Quite so! That’s why the illusion of the Magician’s disappearance works! The entire point if or God NOT to be obviously present, except to those who reach out and experience His presents beyond the obvious visual experience.

To a large extent, we are in agreement about solving the life dramas that make us grow: do so without any direct access to the magician, and without the tool of "magic." We differ on one fundamental issue: what, if anything, is behind the curtain? If we could only agree on a means to pull back the curtain... but the believers always avoid describing the magician in some testable, falsifiable terms...

That removes all reason for the illusion, does it not?

And so, while remaining available to those who seek his support, he remains completely hidden to those most in need of growth. Pretty neat trick, don’t you agree?

Seems a bit ironic that the gods should remain entirely hidden to someone like myself, who is most likely in desperate "need of growth." How could us skeptical folks have some sense of certainty that the available support offered to the mature is from the god(s), and not from other intangible, philosophical ideals that exist only as concepts?

This is both simple, and infinitely comples; It requires dropping all pretence of having sufficient information to draw ANY conclusions, physical or otherwise. One must approach God with the innocents of a child, and simply be open to, and trusting of his guidance. The cynic is incapable of this. For them this and moving mountains are about the same thing. It’s a little like asking the bank for a loan. If you can prove you don’t really need it, then it is available.

Bro Dave