Patriotism

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Is it possible to love your country too much?


You have seen them. The flag-toters. The "America can do no wrong" crowd. Their cars, houses, and clothes all decked out in red, white, and blue. Such people will agree with absolutely any policy the government applies, and anyone who disagrees is, quite frankly, an evil liberal.


Nationalism breeds pride, arrogance, greed, violence, and selfishness. I feel that history backs up this statement. Can't just about every war in the history of humanity be at least partially attributed to nationalistic interests? You would be hard pressed to cite one that doesen't.

I reject the notion that a good citizen should sport an un-conditional love for their country. I hate America in a number of aspects. I consider this my civic duty, as a matter of fact. How may we ever progress as a country if we neglect to lobby for change, when the need for change becomes apparent?

The world is far from achieving the utopian idea of a united global state. And as long as we are stuck in the current condition of blind patriotism indifferent to the needs of others, the farther away this goal becomes.

When many countries compete, some countries will lose.

Personally, I do not want any losers.
I would urge everyone to support not merely the interests of ones own country, but the interests of every country, every person, inevery corner of the planet. I believe that such a change of attitude is the first step towards peace.

It is human nature to compete. But it does not have to be this way. We have clearly evolved much since the first humans. God forbid we take advantage of these new capabilities and progress beyond our primitive ancestors.




Tell me what you think. Can one be patriotic without crossing the line over into 'nationalistic'? Are there any upsides to patriotism? What is even the purpose of patriotism? Is it ones civic duty to be patriotic?

[youngborean]

I am a duel citizen of Canada and the US and have spent a lot of time in both countries. From this experience I have found Patriotism/Nationionalism to be the silliest principles I have experienced. I especially notice this from 2 countries that our so culutrally similar in the products the consume and their entertainment etc., trying to distinguish themselves. I don't think that i would ever wave a flag of any country becuase my personal conviction is that individuals and their similarities are much more important than theoretical ideals that are usually far from true in practice.

[keltzkroz]

I was born in a country that had a long history of occupation (around 350 years I think), where the native people were treated as second class citizens by the foreign invaders. From what I know about its history, some of the native people opposed the occupation by using armed resistance, while some wanted to be fully assimilated by the invaders in order to become more than just second class citizens. Naturally, the 'rebels' died for what they believed in, the yearning they have to see their homeland free from oppression.

To make the long story short, they eventually got their freedom from the foreign invaders. So basing my opinion on what my country of birth went through to achieve freedom, I would have to say that patriotism is a good trait for citizens to have. Is too much patriotism bad? I have no idea because I have never seen anyone who is too patriotic. But I have seen a lot of people who are unpatriotic, and yes its bad.

[MagusYanam]

Nationalism breeds pride, arrogance, greed, violence, and selfishness. I feel that history backs up this statement. Can't just about every war in the history of humanity be at least partially attributed to nationalistic interests? You would be hard pressed to cite one that doesen't.

I agree with your point about nationalism being a destructive and quite often evil force. However, I think the historical assertion here is a bit of an overstatement. Nationalism is a relatively recent phenomenon - the only real wars fought in the national interest occurred after the Thirty Years' War (the last religious war on the European mainland). (There are exceptions: Joan of Arc's chauvinistic nationalism during the Hundred Years' War being one example.) Nationalism was largely an elite phenomenon until the French Revolution, and I think that it is not too much of an overstatement to claim that every major war in the West since the French Revolution has had elements of national interest as its basis. This goes for both World War I and World War II (especially, with the rise of fascist ultra-nationalism) and many of the brushfire wars during the Soviet Era (including the Korean and Vietnam Wars).

But most of the wars previous to the French Revolution were fought not on national terms but on family terms. The first English Civil War was between two branches of the English royal family (the Blois and the Plantagenets) and the second between two branches further down (the Yorkists and the Lancastrians). Even the Hundred Years' War was not fought on national terms but between the House of Valois and the English royal family (not fighting on behalf of England but on behalf of their own French lordships and legal claims).

I reject the notion that a good citizen should sport an un-conditional love for their country.

So do I, my monotrematous friend. But I think there are those who would consider themselves 'patriotic' who also wish to see their country improve itself (John Kerry probably being a good example), and who do not fancy themselves superior to citizens of other countries.

I think the mistake is made when 'patriotism' gives way to 'exceptionalism' - the idea that one's country is somehow unique and favoured above all others, given license to do things which would be frowned upon in any other country. American exceptionalism is extremely widespread, unfortunately, and it is often equated to patriotism by those who profess it. That I don't buy. I think America should be held to the same standards as all other countries, and I think honest patriots should also consider their own country as equal in worth to others.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

I dare say you probably know a great deal more about history than myself Magnus. However, I would argue that a war fought on family terms is more or less the same principle as one fought on national terms. In each case there seems to be conflicting personal interests that stem the outbreak of violence. Each family considers itself "better" or "more unique" than the other, which likewise is the very basis of national wars. A 'family' by definition is really a smaller form of a nation anyway, especially if you go by the definition of "Two or more people who share goals and values".

Keltzkroz, you make a good point. Wars can be fought on JUSTIFIED nationalistic terms, in certain cases of gaining independence. I mostly refer to conflicts over material or religious matters, such as rescources, land, power, and assertion of beliefs.

In hindsight, I slightly misrepresent my position. The issue is not really patriotism in general, but people who are OVERLY patriotic. Humble patriotism is okay, it is when patriotism causes one to become unastute to the needs and concerns of others that creates the problems. Unfortunately, I see very little "humble patriotism" in America, which may be the reason I decided to generalize the word.

Humble patriotism can quickly become harmful, which is why I choose not to partake in it, for fear of inducing partiality.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

I really wish I could get more views on this. I am sure there are more of you out there that disagree.

[juliod]

I am sure there are more of you out there that disagree.

I doubt it. When you put things like you did, I think most people agree that excess patriotism is bad. But they never recognize themselves as being excessive.

Ask a specific question and I bet you'll get more responses. Like "Is it too patriotic to have a support-the-troops ribbon on your SUV considering the record of prisoner abuse and indescriminate destruction in Iraq?"

DanZ

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Okay then. If everyone presumably agrees that excess patriotism is bad, tell me what you think constitutes "excess". At what point does humble patriotism become ignorant and concieted? Pledge of allegiance? Extreme overabundance of flags/American colors? Bashing other countries?

I have come across many people who heartily disagree with the war, yet "support our troops", as noted by the multiple yellow ribbons on the back of their car. I don't quite understand how one can support the troops without agreeing with what they are doing. Is this a sign of blind patriotism? Supporting your country even through something you feel is wrong?

[juliod]

Is this a sign of blind patriotism?

Yes!

It's bad, very bad, to "support the troops" without regard to what those troops are doing and what we are using them to do. No one should allow the need to "support" the troops to trump their political views about war, death, torture, murder, destruction, etc etc.

In fact, the only moral way to "support" the troops is to demand that they come home at once. That will at least mean our own troops won't get killed anymore.

Everyone with a "support the troops" sticker on their SUV is really saying "I support the killing of the troops".

DanZ

[McCulloch]

Only slightly off topic ... Is the American flag fetish idolatrous?