Who is Jesus?

[good]

Who is Jesus?

Without a doubt, you have often heard the claim that Jesus is God, the second person in the "Holy trinity." However, the very Bible which is used as a basis for knowledge about Jesus and as the basis for doctrine within Christianity clearly belies this claim. We urge you to consult your own Bible and verify that the following conclusions are not drawn out of context:

1. God is All Knowing.....but Jesus was not
When speaking of the day of judgment, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." Mark 13:32, and Matt 24:36. But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the day of judgment would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.

2. God is All Powerful.....but Jesus was not
While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own but was derived from God when he said, "Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..." St. John 5:19. Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." St. John 5:30. But God is not only all-powerful, He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.

3. God does not have a God.....but Jesus did have a God.
God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, "l ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." St. John 20:17. He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?" Matt 27:46. If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read, "Myself, myself why hast thou forsaken me?" Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's prayer (Luke 11:2-4), was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: Nevertheless not as I will but as thou wilt." Matt 26:36-39. Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped, and prayed to another being as God is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.

4. God is an invisible spirit.....but Jesus was flesh and blood
While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said. "No man hath seen God at any time." St. John 1:18. '"Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." St. John 5:37. He also said in St. John 4:24. "God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God at any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.

5. No one is greater than God and no one can direct Him but Jesus acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from his own.
Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in St. John 14:28, "My Father is greater than I." When someone referred to him as good master in Matt 19:17, Jesus responded, "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God..." Furthermore, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." St. John 8:42. Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God,when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but thine be done" and in St. John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which hath sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.

Conclusion
The Church recognizes the Bible as the primary source of knowledge about God and Jesus. But since the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is not the Supreme Being and the Supreme Being is not Jesus, upon what basis have you come to believe otherwise?

My brother or sister, the belief that the Supreme Being is a Trinity is false and completely inconsistent with the words of Jesus as presented in the Bible. God is one, not three. He is a perfect unity.

If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.


What is the word of God about Jesus:

A. Regarding Sonship of Jesus:
That is Jesus, son of Mary, in word of truth, concerning which they are doubting. It is not for God to take a son unto Him. Glory be to Him! When He decrees a thing he but says to it "Be", and it is. (Qur'an 19:34,35).

And they say, 'The All-merciful has taken unto Himself a son.' You have indeed advanced something hideous. The heavens are well nigh rent of it and the earth split asunder, and the mountains well nigh fall down crashing for that they have attributed to the All-Merciful a son; and it behoves not the All-Merciful to take a son. None is there in the heavens and earth but comes to the All-Merciful as a servant (Qur'an 19:88-93).

Truly the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then said He unto him, "Be", and he was. (Qur'an 3:59).

People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the Truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers. and say not, 'Three', Refrain, better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be on Him - that He should have a son! To Him belongs that which is in the heavens and on the earth, God suffices for a guardian. (Qur'an 4:171)

B. Regarding Jesus being God:
And when God said. 'O Jesus son of Mary,did you say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God?" He Said, 'To You be Glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, You knew it, knowing what is within my soul, and I do not know what is within Your soul; You know the things unseen. I only said to them what You did command me: "Serve God, my Lord and your Lord." And I was a witness over them, while I remained among them; but when You did take me to Yourself the Watcher over them; You are the witness of everything. (Quran 5:116,117)

C. Regarding Crucifiction of Jesus:
And for their unbelief, and their uttering against Mary a mighty calumny, and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God'...yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who are at variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they did not slay him of certainty... no indeed, God raised him up to Him; God is Almighty, All-Wise. There is not one of the people of the Book but will assuredly believe in him before his death, and on the Resurrection Day he will be a witness against them. (Qur'an 4:156-159)
http://www.saaid.net/islam/5.htm

[EasternSP]

I think the recognition of Jesus, the Father and the spirit as three separate gods is what might confuse people. The three of them make up God.

Now as to your statement quoted here, "If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam." The religion of Islam is just that. A religion and one of cunfusion and hate as well. It is held as a religion of peace by politicians while its true believers carry bombs into civilian centers. It mandates that people convert to it or die. It harbours a racism toward the Jews as prescribed by the founder. I would not want a relationship with a god that wants me to do his dirty work for him.

I would encourage you to seek Christ and find his love for all of God's creation.

[bernee51]

I think the recognition of Jesus, the Father and the spirit as three separate gods is what might confuse people. The three of them make up God.

So they are 'aspects' of god?

Now as to your statement quoted here, "If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam." The religion of Islam is just that. A religion and one of cunfusion and hate as well.

And christianity isn't?

It is held as a religion of peace by politicians while its true believers carry bombs into civilian centers. It mandates that people convert to it or die. It harbours a racism toward the Jews as prescribed by the founder. I would not want a relationship with a god that wants me to do his dirty work for him.

Is your god the same god referred to in Numbers 31? That is the same god recognised by Islam.

I would encourage you to seek Christ and find his love for all of God's creation.

So Jesus is the love 'aspect' of your god?

[EasternSP]

Bernee, you profess to be a seeker of truth, however you ignore the reason for God's instruction in Numbers 31. I'm sure that you can do a brief search on the internet for a few commentaries on the chapter and come to the same understanding that I have.
You compair your god of Islam as the same God of Abraham but there is one of many very glaring disparities between them that needs to be explained. The Jews are God's chosen ones in the bible, but in Islam they are to be slain where ever they are found. How do you reconcile that?

[EasternSP]

A bit more to help you in your search.
Read Numbers 22-25 for the background on the issue. You will find that the Midianites teamed with Moab to mess with Isreal. The Midianites were decendants of Abraham through his wife Ketrum. Moses had trust in the Midianites as he was married to one. The core of the matter is that the Moabs and Midianites ensnared Isrealites with the sin of sexual immorality. The camp was divided and God dealt with the Isrealites first to clean house then sent the loyal Isrealites after the aggressor Midianites. This was not a whole sale slaughter on all Midianites, only those who employed Balaam to work out the undermining of the Jews. The Midianite women were the front line of the aggression on Isreal and bore a specific part of the retaliation for their roll.
Up to this point, Moses had been offering payment to the nations that Isreal had heen traveling through. God wanted the Jews to be pure in heart but the sin nature that they carried was difficult to overcome.
I hope that this addresses your concern of Numbers 31 and helps you with your quest for truth of the true God.

[EasternSP]

With that illustration of what the Numbers 31 was about, how do you explain the whole sale slaughter of the Jews as called for by Islam?
God did not call for the geneocide of the Midianites, just the ones who were aggressors to the Jews. What had the Jews done to Mohummad to require his followers to wipe the Jews off the face of the Earth?

[bernee51]

Bernee, you profess to be a seeker of truth,....

I have views on claims of truth seeking...

... however you ignore the reason for God's instruction in Numbers 31

I dont see reason, I see rationalizations and justifications that are pathetic and immoral.

With that illustration of what the Numbers 31 was about, how do you explain the whole sale slaughter of the Jews as called for by Islam?
God did not call for the geneocide of the Midianites, just the ones who were aggressors to the Jews. What had the Jews done to Mohummad to require his followers to wipe the Jews off the face of the Earth?

I note that you have dodged the question regarding the god of Abraham, who I assume is the god you follow. Did he or did he not order the murder and rape of the Midianites.

The god of Abraham was a local god, a tribal god. The 'commands' of this god were purely tribal in nature. The immorality stems from the assumption of universality by christians and muslims alike.

AND the god of Islam IS the god of Abraham - ask any Muslim.

And for the record, the god of Abraham is, like all other gods, a myth.

[EasternSP]

Once again, I'm responding on my Droid so I will respond to part of your Q. God ordeted them to wipe out the Mids but, but did not order them to rape them. The original reason was because of the sexual immorality, so it would be contradictory if he did.

[bernee51]

Once again, I'm responding on my Droid so I will respond to part of your Q. God ordeted them to wipe out the Mids but, but did not order them to rape them. The original reason was because of the sexual immorality, so it would be contradictory if he did.

31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.


After murdering their parents, older sisters and brothers - on the orders of god - what do you think theye were going to do with the child virgins they kept alive...play hopscotch?

This is the god in which you believe.

[bernee51]

You compair your god of Islam as the same God of Abraham but there is one of many very glaring disparities between them that needs to be explained. The Jews are God's chosen ones in the bible, but in Islam they are to be slain where ever they are found. How do you reconcile that?

These were once (and unfortunately still are) tribal battles.

With Deuteronomy as it role model, what else would you expect of the koran...

32:41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

32:42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

The monotheisms, religions of conversion, are religions of violence. From the OT, through the NT, to its bastard child the koran, there is violence against the unbeliever