If abortion is murder, shouldn't the women be prosecuted?

[McCulloch]

I do think that abortion is murder because it is equivalent to murder, regardless of whether the fetus is a viable life or not.

So do you support criminal prosecution for the mothers who seek abortions? Even the ones who had been raped? Why not?

No, while the action is equivalent the punishment should not be. Killing a fetus is equivalent to killing a 2 yr old baby, but the mother who had the abortion should not be prosecuted because her intent is not equivalent to a murder's intent.

If abortion is murder, should the women seeking and getting abortions be prosecuted? What particular legal principle is being applied to excuse murder?



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Note: for the purposes of this debate, assume that it has been shown that abortion is murder. This is not the place to debate whether this is true.

[Wootah]

I would prefer the term legalist in that the Pharisees were a much maligned (by Christians) group of Jews that set the foundations for to what is known as Rabbinical Judaism.

Legalist is fine.

Murder is a legal term meaning unlawful, unjustified, deliberate homicide. Are you trying to make the case that not all murders should be prosecuted? What other exceptions to prosecution for murder would you allow, or is abortion your sole and only case?

Personally there are a host of crimes for which if I knew a person had done it but had repented I might not report them to the secular law (I have never had to make that choice in real life).

What would prison serve for a person who has committed any other type of murder? The debate here is not about the effectiveness or appropriateness of the sentences handed out by the judicial system but the consistency of calling abortion murder without advocating that it be treated as such.

My personal measure would be the likelihood for them to recommit the offence.

Our judicial system should not take theological concerns into account, right?

Of course it shouldn't but I do.

This hits at the heart of the debate. If you define a zygote, an embryo and a fetus as persons, then an abortionist will harm many others.

Yes but the issue is how should a Christian respond.

For most pro-lifers, a life begins at conception. Thus anything that happens to the gametes prior to that event is OK.

Part of my definition of murder is that you can only murder a human being. Killing an animal to me is not definitionally murder.

First I would judge what is the likelihood of re-offence and then what is best to serve the abortionist in leading them to Christ.

[Doogles]

If abortion is murder, should the women seeking and getting abortions be prosecuted? What particular legal principle is being applied to excuse murder?

The real issue is whether vigilante justice is justified, not whether murders should be prosecuted (obviously I think they should be). Were the Black Panthers justified in carrying weapons? Was the Weather Underground justified in attempting to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat? Are people who bomb abortion clinics justified?

I am of the opinion that vigilante justice is not justified under ordinary circumstances. There is no clear Biblical teaching regarding it, but the tone of the New Testament urges us to accept unjust laws rather than cause violent revolution. The New Testament accept the existence of slavery and even commands slaves to be obedient per the laws of the land, rather than slit their owners' throats in the night. To attempt to lynch abortion doctors (or especially the women) would cause permanent confrontations with the police/government, disgrace Christianity in most people's eyes, and do irreparable harm to the gospel. Ultimately, the next world matters more than this one, and Christians are called to undergo even violent persecution with good will and joy.

If abortion is ever declared to be murder then the doctor and the woman should be executed. However, I don't see that happening; even if it is declared illegal, it probably won't be labelled first degree murder.

Finally, the Constitution forbids both the state and federal governments from passing "Ex Post Facto" laws (Art. 1, Sec. 9. Clause 3; Art. 1, Sec. 10, Clause 1), which are laws punishing people for actions that were legal at the time of commission. Thus, it would be unconstitutional and wrong to retroactively punish women or doctors after the fact. I don't believe in reparations for slavery for the same reason, though slavery is also repugnant.


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Note: for the purposes of this debate, assume that it has been shown that abortion is murder. This is not the place to debate whether this is true.[/quote]

[McCulloch]

Assume that the state agreed with the religious anti-abortionists that a human zygote is a person and killing it is murder. Then all abortions, subsequent to that decision would be murder in the first degree. Right? If first degree murder is a capital offense in your State, then both the women and their doctors should be executed.

Of course, no one here is advocating vigilante justice. Neither are we ignoring the legal prohibition of Ex Post Facto laws.

[Doogles]

Assume that the state agreed with the religious anti-abortionists that a human zygote is a person and killing it is murder. Then all abortions, subsequent to that decision would be murder in the first degree. Right? If first degree murder is a capital offense in your State, then both the women and their doctors should be executed.

I agree.

[HeatherAnn]

I have to say I agree about the subject and that if a women does not want the child to at least have it and give it up for adoption. I just find that no one believes a unborn child can know or remember anything.
After all people can dream and remember there dreams correct?
Then why don't they think unborn child are just in the womb absorbing information before being born...Yet they are allowed to kill because of the lack responsibility they feel for getting that way.
The only way I would not think it was murder is if it was a very serious health problem issue for the person with child.
I have never really known any person to feel that way since I know of people that have had one or at least told me they did.To me it's a issue that is serious even though I think that might solve the problem of people going around causing problems for those types of clinics especially if they are no more around.
I just know that there are alot of other thoughts about were aborting is done and if people should be allowed to or not.
Also to list another point that some people will most likely will not take to seriously is that I know that when I was pregnant with child that child has been born and has done something along with discussed something that happened when the child had yet been born.
That's one of the reasons I do feel that way about the subject and issue...

[Berny]

The problem as I see it is, the definitions for murder and homicide speak about humans but not human life. Thus terminating a human's life is considered by the law to be murder / homicide, but terminating a human life isn't. Not Logical [large 'L' Logic], in my opinion IMO, but that's the law [small 'l' law this is].

[Fisherking]

I do think that abortion is murder because it is equivalent to murder, regardless of whether the fetus is a viable life or not.

So do you support criminal prosecution for the mothers who seek abortions? Even the ones who had been raped? Why not?

No, while the action is equivalent the punishment should not be. Killing a fetus is equivalent to killing a 2 yr old baby, but the mother who had the abortion should not be prosecuted because her intent is not equivalent to a murder's intent.

If abortion is murder, should the women seeking and getting abortions be prosecuted? What particular legal principle is being applied to excuse murder?



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Note: for the purposes of this debate, assume that it has been shown that abortion is murder. This is not the place to debate whether this is true.

Yes, this is the position I hold. If one thinks the majority of abortions are murder (which I do), it would be inconsistent to say they should not be prosecuted. I also think prosecution would significantly decrease the number of abortions performed, being an effective deterrant.

[S-word]

If this is from a religious perspective, then shouldn't the "god" of the Judeo-Christian religion be prosecuted for all the spontaneous abortions (a.k.a miscarriages) as well as the billions of innocents he killed with his actions (such as the flood) according to the bible and assuming you believe it's real?!

Very often foetuses are aborted as they are just clumps of cells, should we also prosecute those who have treatment for cancer - after all they are destroying just the same?

If the temporal laws of a country were to define a foetus as a fully formed human being, and not, simply a potential human being, then abortion could be clasified as "Murder."

But, if this is from a religious perspective, and as, according to the bible the "god" of the Judeo-Christian religion does not define the unborn foetus as a human life, then abortion cannot be clasified as murder.

The Good News Bible, Exodus 21: 22; If some men are fighting and hurt a pregnant woman, so that she (A Human life) loses her child, but she is not injured in any other way, the one who hurt her (And caused her to miscarry her potential child) is to be fined whatever amount the woman's husband demands, subject to the approval of the judges.

But if the woman (A human life) herself is injured, the punishment shall be life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, etc, etc.

And so, according to the God of the Judeo-Christian religion, abortion cannot be classified as murder, although I have no idea of what the judgement of the God of the Judeo-Christian religion would be, in the case where a woman aborts the continued development of a potential human life, without the consent of the sperm donor, whose sperm was the animating principle that gave life to the dormant egg within the woman, which developing egg would eventually become a human being.

[Yahu]

I do think that abortion is murder because it is equivalent to murder, regardless of whether the fetus is a viable life or not.

So do you support criminal prosecution for the mothers who seek abortions? Even the ones who had been raped? Why not?

No, while the action is equivalent the punishment should not be. Killing a fetus is equivalent to killing a 2 yr old baby, but the mother who had the abortion should not be prosecuted because her intent is not equivalent to a murder's intent.

If abortion is murder, should the women seeking and getting abortions be prosecuted? What particular legal principle is being applied to excuse murder?

Rev 2 says that Jezebel will be cast into the sick bed and her children will be killed with death. This passage is using the old Testament queen Jezebel as a type and shadow of those that follow the ways of the goddess Ashtoreth by living an immoral life.

Those women that live immoral lives that have sex with men they don't want a child with tend to kill off that child as opposed to raising it. The death of the child is the punishment for that lifestyle. By shedding innocent blood they bring down a further curse upon their own life. That curse and the death of the child is the punishment IMO for living a life like that.

Women that have abortions will be cast into the sick bed. Yah just gives them time to repent of their actions 1st.

Now that doesn't account for ALL abortions but the majority. For the record, my wife had a child that was conceived via a daterape drug that was used on her after we were married. She loved and raised that daughter.

[ttruscott]

...
If abortion is murder, should the women seeking and getting abortions be prosecuted? What particular legal principle is being applied to excuse murder?
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Note: for the purposes of this debate, assume that it has been shown that abortion is murder. This is not the place to debate whether this is true.

If the Davidic throne is ever occupied by a messianic David as some interpret parts of John's Revelations,

I think abortion will be rightly prosecuted as murder.

Peace,

Ted