Veritas: Defending Christian Love

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veritas
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Veritas: Defending Christian Love

Post #1

Post by veritas »

I posted the following to another Christian board that I'm a member of, but I also wanted to get the input of the folks here.
The entire bible is centered around the word Love. The gospels talk about loving people that are hard to love. Loving as Christ loves us. Loving our neighbors as ourselves. Love, Love, Love.
Well, that is certainly one view, and a commendable one. Jesus himself is quoted as saying "Thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself." Yet we must remember that this is the second commandment: the first is "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." (Quotes from Matthew 22) Loving God is the first and greatest commandment: as Jesus said, "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets," but that also means that the second depends on the first.

So what does it mean to love God? On this question, Wiccan and Christian ideas diverge wildly, yet I feel that I may offer some words that are applicable for Christians. Mind you, these words may not be the easy encouragement that many look for: instead, I offer you a rebuke, a warning, and a challenge.

Jesus was not the first to say these words: they had been codified long ago in the Torah:
"Therefore hear, O Israel, and be careful to observe it, that it may be well with you, and that you may multiply greatly as the Lord God of your fathers has promised you-'a land flowing with milk and honey.'
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.
"And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. (Deut 6:3-6)
It is the assertion of many Christians that, because the Hebrews rejected Jesus during his ministry on Earth, God in turn rejected them, and instead extended the Covenant to all who accept Christ as their savior. For many self-proclaimed "Christians" throughout history, this has led to a murderous hatred of the Jews. History shows us the tragic legacy of this "Christian hatred," from the slander and blood-libel in the writings of Justin Martyr; the wholesale slaughter of Jews during the Crusades; the pogroms, ghettos, and mob violence of the Middle Ages and the Rennaissance; the Holocaust of the twentieth century; and even to the writings of so-called "Christian Identity" groups that are active today.

The Jews have, perhaps, been the most frequent victims of this self-proclaimed "Christendom," but they have not been the only ones. Lepers, Muslims, and so-called "witches" have died by the tens of thousands. The Cathars, the Benandantes, and the Penitentes of Europe were hounded from the earth in Europe, just as the Mormons were hounded from their land and property in New York, Illinois, and Missouri. The native peoples of Africa, North and South America, and Australia were enslaved, murdered, raped, and robbed of not only their material wealth, but of their culture, their rights, and even of their own languages.

Are these the actions of "True Christians?" Of course not. Of the perpetrators of these and many other vile acts done "in Jesus's name," the only possible assesment is that their understanding of Jesus's words and teachings was faulty in the extreme. They failed to understand, but this was not the nadir of their failure: in my opinion, they failed to love God with all of their heart, soul, and strength, and therefore they failed to love their neighbors.

"But that was history," you may say. "Such things no longer go on today." If you honestly believe that, then while I commend your optimism, I must condemn your ignorance of the world around you. There are self-proclaimed "Christians" today who praise the Holocaust of Germany, the witch-craze of Europe and America, and the murderous hatred and greed of the Crusades. There are self-proclaimed "Christians" walking the face of earth right now who say things like "God hates homosexuals," or "Witches are for burning," or "This time, we need to kill all the Muslims."

This is the so-called "Christian love" that I, and other Wiccans, have seen from some self-proclaimed Christians.

That certainly does not mean that I, for one moment, condemn all Christians for the acts of some. Indeed, even among the people on this forum, I have seen Christian love in action. I have seen TaraDeck, by taking her courage into her hands to introduce this thread, break through her own feelings of insecurity to try to seek the truth. I have seen Imperfect confess his struggles with demonstrating that love. I have seen SpiritHeart discuss the process she is going through with her children, and how that process is helping her understand more of the Love we are to have for God.

Yet I have also seen, on this very forum, one person who accuses people like me of being filled with hatred. I have seen, on other forums, accusations of child abuse and sacrifice. I have seen and heard, on web-pages and in pulpits and in the streets of the city I live in, hatred being preached by people who stoop so low as to sully and blaspheme the very name of the God they pretend to worship.

This is the rebuke, and the warning, that I offer: if you tolerate such people in your midst, and if you do not speak out against such hatred, God will, in turn, reject you, even as your scriptures state that He rejected the Jews.

This is not something going on in some far-off land: this hatred is being preached right here in North America, in England, in Australia, in Europe, and in the Middle East. "Christian" pastors condemn Wiccans as "baby-murdering Satanists", as is happening in the United States and Great Britain; "Christian" politicians preach murder or oppression against their neighbors, simply because their neighbors are ethnically different, as is happening in Germany, France, Australia, and the Baltic states; "Christian" media personalities condemn the existence of all Palestinians because of the actions of criminals in their midst, as is happening in and around Israel and the United States; these, and many others, are doing evil, supposedly in the name of Jesus Christ.

It is a hard line to walk. You are even called to love those who are commiting these sins; yet you are also called to rebuke them, just as you are called to rebuke those who commit any other sin. You cannot justly silence them by force of arms, but instead you must reprove them for their actions. Yet simple reproof is not enough: you must also show, by your own actions, that their actions are wrong. You must demonstrate to the victims of his hatred that true Christian love is extended even to the "unlovable": you must love the Jew, the heretic, the leper, the witch, the homosexual, and the sinner, because these are all your neighbors.

You may ask, "But what has any of this to do with you, a Wiccan?" Do you not know that our Lord and Lady has also called us to this kind of love? Do you not understand that those who truly hear the call of the Wiccan Gods have, of late, surpassed the Christians in the love they show for all of humankind? Has the history of your church taught you anything, or do you not see the folly of your deeds, and of the deeds of your forefathers?

For this is my challenge to you: if you are of Christ, and if Christ is indeed truly God, then your love should equal mine, who does not claim to be either Christian, or perfect. If it does, then it is well with you, but truly I tell you, if your love cannot equal or exceed mine, then my Lord and Lady will mock you and your congregation, just as Elijah mocked the priests of Baal. For this is my message to those who claim the name of Christ: I have not troubled our world, but you and your father's house have, in that you have forsaken the commandments of the Lord and have followed the Baals of political power, financial gain, and dominance. Those who have fallen prey to these Baals are of the congregation of Laodicea.

But perhaps I point my finger at the innocent, as well as the guilty. John wrote of the church of Philadelphia, which many Christians take to be a type of the "Remnant Church," those few who remained faithful in the face of the increasing worldliness about them. To them,I say with John "hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

If your God is truly God, keep his commandments:
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.
If you love God, you will also love your neighbors, but the opposite is also true: I agree with TaraDeck that if you do not love your neighbors, then you do not love God. I urge and exhort you: love God, and love your neighbors, and all else that you need will follow.

Justin

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Post #2

Post by otseng »

Though your post was targeted towards the audience of another board and so I have no idea of the context of what you wrote, I agree with practically everything you said.

Since this is a debate forum though, is there a specific debate question that you want to pose?

veritas
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Post #3

Post by veritas »

otseng wrote:Though your post was targeted towards the audience of another board and so I have no idea of the context of what you wrote, I agree with practically everything you said.
The original context was quite amicable, especially considering that I am a Wiccan posting to a Christian apologetics board. The one thing that has been brought up that I do need to clarify is that it is not Christian doctrine that states that God has "rejected the Jews," but the doctrine of men.
Since this is a debate forum though, is there a specific debate question that you want to pose?
Not a question, per se. Of course, if there is anyone who disagrees with a specific point (or the entire post), I would welcome their input.

Justin

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Post #4

Post by littlesoul »

Trust a Wiccan to remind the Christians what its all about!
>
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.
>

This is the real point, the goal any & every Christian ought to aspire to.

>Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.
>

Why is does it seem so unpracticed? Perhaps the dilemma lies in the need for a personal relationship with God for love of God to be a reality, not just some sentiment. Who is God? Where does He live? What is it like there? Does He have friends? What do they get up to?

Perhaps it's the perception that this world is so problematic, how can we love God who (its easy enough to blame for seeming to have) put us here?

The saints tell us of their love for God, and that encourages us, but how can we experience that? Is it personal? Do we need a stadium full of people to get it?

These are all pressing questions...

Good point Veritas!

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