Christian vs Muslim debate on any subject

[Maseehullah]

If there is any Christian who feels he is convinced that Christianity is true and that the fundamental beliefs of Christianity, such as the trinity, the incarnation, etc., are absolute truth and is willing to defend his/her beliefs in a debate with me, a Muslim, I would give such a person the benefit of the doubt to pick any subject or topic to debate. This can be any topic relating to Islam or Christianity or both.

[JoeyKnothead]

If there is any Christian who feels he is convinced that Christianity is true and that the fundamental beliefs of Christianity, such as the trinity, the incarnation, etc., are absolute truth and is willing to defend his/her beliefs in a debate with me, a Muslim, I would give such a person the benefit of the doubt to pick any subject or topic to debate. This can be any topic relating to Islam or Christianity or both.

The observer is to ponder why no challenge was offered to atheists.

[Joshua Patrick]

What about, how Muslims claim Christianity was a revelation from God, Yet claim Christ was not the Son of God, and Christianity became corrupt, even though we have believed Christ to be the Son of the Living God from the beggining?

For example;

Ignatius of Antioch:

"Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).

"[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is" (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).

St.Ignatius was a Religious Jew/Ethnic Jew, a student of the Apostle John, the beloved disciple of Christ.
Also the Third Bishop of Antioch.

He was sentenced to die in the Colosseum, to be eaten by lions.
His body lies entombed under St. Peter's Basilica in Rome.

What would the Islam response to this be?

That St.Ignatius was lying?

[Maseehullah]

What about, how Muslims claim Christianity was a revelation from God

I've yet to meet another Muslim who claims that Christianity is a revelation from God...I know I certainly don't believe that.

Yes, we Muslims accept and believe that the teachings of Jesus (peace be upon him) was a revelation from God, but our position was that Jesus did not preach Christianity.

By the way, that is one of the topics we can debate upon if you wish.

, Yet claim Christ was not the Son of God, and Christianity became corrupt, even though we have believed Christ to be the Son of the Living God from the beggining?

What you believe is not a proof, what is a proof is what Jesus himself believed and taught, or the prophets and messengers of God that came before him.

As Muslims, we don't accept the beliefs of Ignatius of Antioch or any other Christian. If we did, we obviously wouldn't be Muslims!

We believe that the foundation of all truth is Revelation of God, which He only reveals to His chosen prophets and messengers. You as a Christian and I as a Muslim believe in many such prophets and messengers, for example, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Elijah, Job, and Jesus (peace be upon them all).

According to Islam, Ignatius was not a prophet and did not get any revelation from God, therefore, his personal beliefs are irrelevant.

Islam, for your information, is not really a new religion, it is a restoration of the Religion of Abraham, the pure, simple, and beautiful monotheism of Abraham, his family, and the prophets which followed in his footsteps, the last of whom is Muhammad (peace be upon him).

[East of Eden]

Why do Muslims not believe Jesus died on the cross when we have extra-Biblical historical confirmation of that fact?

[Zzyzx]

.

Why do Muslims not believe Jesus died on the cross when we have extra-Biblical historical confirmation of that fact?

Cite?

[Joshua Patrick]

I've yet to meet another Muslim who claims that Christianity is a revelation from God...I know I certainly don't believe that.

"Fight those who do not . . . follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book [i.e., Jews and Christians], until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection" (Q 9:29).

From the Qu'ran itself, it states the Jews and Christians both recieved revelations from Allah.

Many of Muhammad's writings, claimed Christianity and Judaism was revelations from God, I can gladly reference some if you wish, but I believe you already know this?

Yes, we Muslims accept and believe that the teachings of Jesus (peace be upon him) was a revelation from God, but our position was that Jesus did not preach Christianity.

In the Qur'an there are many references to the Jewish and Christian Holy Books. In fact the Qur'an addresses Christians and Jews in terms of the Book: O People of the Book! (5:68 AYA).

Jesus was the Messiah, he came to reveal the everlasting convenant, he established the Catholic Church, that has stood for 2000+ years. This church preaches the message of Christ, it is the same church that compiled the bible, which Muslims refered to as "O People of the Book". What Jesus preached, is what the Catholic Church preaches. The same church the Apostles ( Who walked with Jesus) founded, which as Apostolic succession (Direct successors)

What you believe is not a proof, what is a proof is what Jesus himself believed and taught, or the prophets and messengers of God that came before him.

Aint the writings from the Apostle's (Who walked with Jesus) and the Early Church Fathers(Who walked with the Apostles), or the Church itself (Who has Apostolic Succession)
.

As Muslims, we don't accept the beliefs of Ignatius of Antioch or any other Christian. If we did, we obviously wouldn't be Muslims!

I referenced St.Ignatius of Antioch, just as an example to show how Christians believed what Christ revealed to us from the beginning. He was a student of the Apostle John. The Apostle John, was the beloved disciple, who was with Our Blessed Lady at Calvary, at the time of Jesus' Crucifixion.

Islam, for your information, is not really a new religion, it is a restoration of the Religion of Abraham, the pure, simple, and beautiful monotheism of Abraham, his family, and the prophets which followed in his footsteps, the last of whom is Muhammad (peace be upon him).

Judaism was the religion of the convenant, when the Messiah came, the Jews rejected him, those faithful Jews who believed in him, became the Church, the continuation of Israel the convenant is fount in the Catholic Church. We needed no restoration of the "Religion of Abraham", I believe Abraham had no religion, he was promised a convenant.

Muhammad, was not a prophet. He sprang from pagans. But that which he taught was in the main Catholic doctrine, albeit oversimplified.

Mohammed’s teaching never developed among the mass of his followers, or in his own mind, a detailed theology. He was content to accept all that appealed to him in the Catholic scheme and to reject all that seemed to him, and to so many others of his time, too complicated or mysterious to be true. Simplicity was the note of the whole affair; and since all heresies draw their strength from some true doctrine, Mohammedanism drew its strength from the true Catholic doctrines that it retained: the equality of all men before God—"All true believers are brothers." It zealously preached and throve on the paramount claims of justice, social and economic.

[Lux]

Moderator Action

All threads started in the debate subforums should have at least one question for debate, according to the rules. I'll move this to General Chat, and once you get a topic of debate, you can either start a thread with the question(s) agreed on for everyone to debate, or set up a Head-to-head debate with a single user.

I do hope you find a debater, I'd like to see a nice, civil debate between a christian and a muslim. And welcome to the forum, by the way

[Maseehullah]

Why do Muslims not believe Jesus died on the cross when we have extra-Biblical historical confirmation of that fact?

First of all, the Bible itself proves that if Jesus is the true Messiah he couldn't have died on the cross.

There are not historical witness accounts that prove Jesus died on the cross either.

If you want, we can debate this as a topic.

[Maseehullah]

From the Qu'ran itself, it states the Jews and Christians both recieved revelations from Allah.

Yes they did. They received prophets and revelation from God through those prophets. But God didn't reveal "Christianity" or "Judaism", these religions developed later. For example, Judaism developed after the Old Testament prophets. Judaism existed in the time of Jesus, but Jesus preached to the Jews that many of their beliefs of Judaism is wrong. He refuted the different Jewish sects and preached the simple message of the prophets, like Abraham.

Christianity developed after Jesus left the world and ascended to the heaven. Jesus himself never preached Christianity or Catholicism, he never preached trinity, or intercession through the dead, which are the core fundamentals of Christianity and Catholicism.

Many of Muhammad's writings, claimed Christianity and Judaism was revelations from God, I can gladly reference some if you wish, but I believe you already know this?

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) didn't make any "writings", his sayings known as Hadith are oral traditions which have been memorized and written down.

And he never ever claimed that Christianity or Judaism are revelations from God.

In the Qur'an there are many references to the Jewish and Christian Holy Books. In fact the Qur'an addresses Christians and Jews in terms of the Book: O People of the Book! (5:68 AYA).

You need to do an elementary study of the basics of Islam if you are serious about debating. As Muslims, we do believe in the revealed scriptures, as mentioned in the Holy Quran, such as the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel. That doesn't mean we accept Christianity or Judaism as legitimate religions. In fact, nowhere in your bible are there the words "Christianity" or "Judaism", let alone any proof from your Bible that Christianity or Judaism are true religions revealed by God.

it is the same church that compiled the bible

The New Testament may have been compiled by your church, but the New Testament is a mixture of the words of Jesus, plus the words of many other people, some of them anonymous, and others who never even met Jesus, i.e. Paul of Tarsus, and other writers.

The Old Testament (known as the Tanakh) existed before Jesus and was read in the time of Jesus. We believe in the books of these prophets and we believe in the words of Jesus. But we reject other writings and books that were added later to the New Testament, because those books are not revelations from God.

Aint the writings from the Apostle's (Who walked with Jesus) and the Early Church Fathers(Who walked with the Apostles), or the Church itself (Who has Apostolic Succession)

Neither the apostles or disciples were prophets that we believe in. We only accept the prophets of that time, like John the Baptist or Jesus (peace be upon them). Many of Jesus own disciples later betrayed him, such as Judas Iscariot, and Simeon Peter, who denied his belief in Jesus three times. Many of his disciples even abandoned him when he was nailed to the cross. Many of his so called "apostles" like Paul of Tarsus never even met him, and in fact, were bitter enemies that used to persecute his followers.

This is why we only care for the words of Jesus and other prophets of God, we don't care for what any disciples, apostles, or early church fathers have to say or what they believe.

We needed no restoration of the "Religion of Abraham", I believe Abraham had no religion, he was promised a convenant.

Religion is what you believe, your creed and theology and way of life. Are you saying Abraham didn't believe anything and didn't follow the way which God revealed to him?

Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, as Allah says in the Quran. Indeed, Judaism and Christianity were invented after him. Jews and Christians split into many sects and groups, only one group of Jews were true to the teachings of Abraham, and they accepted Jesus as the Messiah. And only one group of Christians were true to the teachings of Jesus, who believed him to be only a prophet and a human being, not divine.

Muhammad, was not a prophet. He sprang from pagans.

According to you, then Abraham is not a prophet either, because he also sprang from the pagan civilization of Ur, and he was ordered by God to emigrate from there to the land of Canaan.

Mohammed’s teaching never developed among the mass of his followers, or in his own mind, a detailed theology. He was content to accept all that appealed to him in the Catholic scheme and to reject all that seemed to him, and to so many others of his time, too complicated or mysterious to be true. Simplicity was the note of the whole affair; and since all heresies draw their strength from some true doctrine, Mohammedanism drew its strength from the true Catholic doctrines that it retained: the equality of all men before God—"All true believers are brothers." It zealously preached and throve on the paramount claims of justice, social and economic.

You say that the Prophet Muhammad's (peace be upon him) teachings are too simple and straightforward, and that is a heresy according to you!

I say, however, that all the great prophets of God has a simple and pure theology, that there is only one God, and He alone is to be worshiped. Every prophet of God, including Jesus preached this.

In fact, according to your Bible, when Jesus was asked what is the most important commandment of God, he answered, "Hear O Israel; the Lord our God, the Lord is One!" [Mark 12:29]

Note, he did not preach about the trinity, or the hypostatic union, or the divine incarnation, or any other so called "mysteries". He preached the simple and straightforward doctrine of the Oneness of God, like all the prophets who came before him.

Therefore, according to you, all these prophets of God are "heretics" because their belief was too simple, like the belief of our Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)![/u]