Is belief in the Christian God a rational belief?

[harvey1]

From my understanding it seems some atheists might think that theism is a rational belief, but they reject that a belief in a Christian God is a rational belief. So, I'd like to open this up for discussion here on the Christianity subforum. Is belief in the Christian God a rational belief?

(Edited: A specific example was taken out because it was disputed as being a fair example on my part.)

[Tilia]

I think the reasons why belief in the Christian God is not rational have probably been dealt with elsewhere in this forum. Many of them allude to the logical contradictions implicit in such a belief. I can't remember them all right now, but the ones which come to mind are:

1-The Christian God is supposed to have assumed human nature (Incarnation). To the logical mind, this is like saying that a circle has assumed the nature of a square (Spinoza dixit).

A mere similitude is not a logical progression, and no illogicality has been expressed here.

2- The Christian God is supposed to be everywhere but at the same time he is believed to reside in precise locations (temples, churches, the body of Jesus).

The Christian God is not everywhere in a locational sense, and the belief that he exists in any locality is not Christian. God is spirit, and those who worship him do so in spirit.

3- The Christian God is said to be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent. But all three are incompatible, as evidenced by the problem of evil, and omniscience conflicts with human free will.

The existence of evil is predicated upon the existence of love, which cannot exist without free will. There is no necessary conflict of omniscience with free will.

4- The Christian God is said to be one God, but three Persons.

Not in the Christian Scripture.

[Dilettante]

Tilia wrote:

A mere similitude is not a logical progression, and no illogicality has been expressed here.

So you are saying that Jesus was human in appearance only? Or are you saying the analogy doesn't work? If not, please say why.

The Christian God is not everywhere in a locational sense, and the belief that he exists in any locality is not Christian. God is spirit, and those who worship him do so in spirit.

That just raises further questions. "Everywhere" means "in every place", it implies a reference to location. If God is said to exist outside spacetime, outside the universe, or if we say that God does not exist in the same sense that we exist, we need to explain how that can be possible, what "existence" means in the case of God if it is indeed totally different from the ordinary meaning of the word, and how that is different from saying that He doesn't exist at all.
Also, if God is spirit, we need to explain what spirit is and provide some sort of rational explanation of how a matterial world could have been produced by an immaterial Creator (akin to asking how a sculptor with no eyes, hands, tools or materials could have created a sculpture we can all see and touch). Note I'm not categorically saying it's impossible...all I'm saying is that, to date, there is no rational explanation.

The existence of evil is predicated upon the existence of love, which cannot exist without free will.

The problem of evil has been a stumbling block for centuries, and I have not yet seen a staisfactory solution. Same with free will. The closest anyone has come to a solution is perhaps compatibilism, i.e., the view that we are not really free, but we still are responsible for our actions. If you know of any solutions to any of these two dilemmas, please let us know.

Not in the Christian Scripture.

True, the doctrine of the Trinity, as such, is not to be found in the Bible. But this didn't stop later theologians from finding it there in a germinal form. (Similarly, Jesus never referred to himself as God or "Son of God").
Not every Christian dogma is contained in the Scriptures. But any religion which is not fossilized will allow for later elaborations and will adapt itself to a changing milieu, as Christianity did.

[Cephus]

Why is faith against reason?

Because faith is, more often than not IMO, placed in things that are unreasonable and irrational. It is not simply believing where you cannot prove, it is believing what can be absolutely demonstrated to be false and what goes against every known observation, evidence and fact.

[Tilia]

Tilia wrote:

A mere similitude is not a logical progression, and no illogicality has been expressed here.

So you are saying that Jesus was human in appearance only? Or are you saying the analogy doesn't work?

Neither of those. Analogy is not a form of proof; it is merely an aid to understand a proof or alleged proof. The proof of illogicality needs to be made in this case.

The Christian God is not everywhere in a locational sense, and the belief that he exists in any locality is not Christian. God is spirit, and those who worship him do so in spirit.

God is said to exist outside spacetime, outside the universe, or if we say that God does not exist in the same sense that we exist, we need to explain how that can be possible,

It is sufficient to say that God does not exist in space/time. To attempt to go further would probably be to attempt a lie, as humanity has no means of knowing any further than space/time. Nearly all descriptions of the afterlife in Christian Scripture are made in material terms that can be understood by material people.

Also, if God is spirit, we need to explain what spirit is

A dictionary will suffice here. 'Intelligent or immaterial part of man, soul' (OED) is a start.

and provide some sort of rational explanation of how a matterial world could have been produced by an immaterial Creator

Why should there be any contradiction in that? Is it a logical impossibility that the immaterial cannot produce the material? Is it not possible that the immaterial is actually much more real than the material?

Note I'm not categorically saying it's impossible

I think it has to be proved that it is impossible before the existence of a deity can be disproved.

The existence of evil is predicated upon the existence of love, which cannot exist without free will.

The problem of evil has been a stumbling block for centuries, and I have not yet seen a satisfactory solution.

I think there is one right above. Love cannot exist without free will; free will allows for lack of love and thus evil.

Not in the Christian Scripture.

True, the doctrine of the Trinity, as such, is not to be found in the Bible. But this didn't stop later theologians from finding it there in a germinal form.

Either it is there or it is not. If it can be proved from Scripture, then it can be cited against Christianity.

[Tilia]

Why is faith against reason?

Because faith is, more often than not IMO, placed in things that are unreasonable and irrational. It is not simply believing where you cannot prove, it is believing what can be absolutely demonstrated to be false and what goes against every known observation, evidence and fact.

What are these beliefs?

[CJK]

Why is faith against reason?

Because faith is belief without knowledge, of things without parallel

[Tilia]

Why is faith against reason?

Because faith is belief without knowledge, of things without parallel

Do those categories imply illogicality?

[CJK]

Do those categories imply illogicality?

Please clarify.

[Tilia]

Do those categories imply illogicality?

Please clarify.

Is belief without knowledge illogical? Is belief in things without parallel an illogicality?

[harvey1]

Seriously. I've never heard the trinity explained rationally

Augustine, in my view, provided an excellent analogy of the trinity in de Trinitate in book 10:

Putting aside, then, for a little while all other things, of which the mind is certain concerning itself, let us especially consider and discuss these three--memory, understanding, will... Since, then, these three, memory, understanding, wills are not three lives, but one life; nor three minds, but one mind; it follows certainly that neither are they three substances, but one substance.... And hence these three are one, in that they are one life, one mind, one essence; and whatever else they are severally called in respect to themselves, they are called also together, not plurally, but in the singular number. But they are three, in that wherein they are mutually referred to each other; and if they were not equal, and this not only each to each, but also each to all, they certainly could not mutually contain each other; for not only is each contained by each, but also all by each... Likewise, when I understand these three things, I understand them together as whole. For there is none of things intelligible which I do not understand, except what I do not know; but what I do not know, I neither remember, nor will. Therefore, whatever of things intelligible I do not understand, it follows also that I neither remember nor will. And whatever of things intelligible I remember and will, it follows that I understand. My will also embraces my whole understanding and my whole memory whilst I use the whole that I understand and remember. And, therefore, while all are mutually comprehended by each, and as wholes, each as a whole is equal to each as a whole, and each as a whole at the same time to all as wholes; and these three are one, one life, one mind, one essence...(de Trinitate, book 10:17-19)

As the image of God, the human mind exemplifies the nature of God's mind in biological form. The God mind requires subdivision in the same way that humans possess memory of what they were (the "Be" aspect of who we are: our life), the understanding aspect of what we currently are (the "Becoming" aspect of who we are: our mind), and the will aspect of what we seek to move toward (the "Become" aspect of who we are: our essence).

So, God could be said to be a "Be" aspect, "Becoming" aspect, and "Become" aspect. This is a very popular understanding among scholars as to what the name Yahweh signifies.

So, in logical terms, God is being itself (e.g., Tao), God is a mental process working in the world (e.g., Logos), and God is that which becomes by binding together those things which are in opposition (e.g., Force). Religions tend to emphasis different aspects of God, however Christianity is unique in being able to encapsulate the three major divisions of God's existence.