Islam is anti women

[CabinInTheForest]

The oppression of women that Islam advocates is not only disturbing, but is direct contrast with everything that Christian civilization stands for when it comes to the rights of women.

The Quran

A husband has sex with his wife, as a plow goes into a field.

The Quran in Sura (Chapter) 2:223 says:

Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like

Husbands are a degree above their wives.

The Quran in Sura 2:228 says:

. . . Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status

A male gets a double share of the inheritance over that of a female.The Quran in Sura 4:11 says:

The share of the male shall be twice that of a female . . . .

A woman’s testimony counts half of a man’s testimony.

The Quran in Sura 2:282 says:

And let two men from among you bear witness to all such documents [contracts of loans without interest]. But if two men be not available, there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her.

A wife may remarry her ex—husband if and only if she marries another man and then this second man divorces her.

The Quran in Sura 2:230 says:

And if the husband divorces his wife (for the third time), she shall not remain his lawful wife after this (absolute) divorce, unless she marries another husband and the second husband divorces her. [In that case] there is no harm if they [the first couple] remarry

Slave—girls are sexual property for their male owners.

The Quran in Sura 4:24 says:

And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands [as prisoners of war]

A man may be polygamous with up to four wives.

The Quran in Sura 4:3 says:

And if you be apprehensive that you will not be able to do justice to the orphans, you may marry two or three or four women whom you choose. But if you apprehend that you might not be able to do justice to them, then marry only one wife, or marry those who have fallen in your possession.

A husband may simply get rid of one of his undesirable wives.

The Quran in Sura 4:129 says:

It is not within your power to be perfectly equitable in your treatment with all your wives, even if you wish to be so; therefore, [in order to satisfy the dictates of Divine Law] do not lean towards one wife so as to leave the other in a state of suspense.

Husbands may hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives (quite apart from whether they actually are highhanded).

The Quran in Sura 4:34 says:

4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great.

Mature men are allowed to marry prepubescent girls. Islam supports peadophilia.

The Quran in Sura 65:1, 4 says:

65:1 O Prophet, when you [and the believers] divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting—period and count the waiting—period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden.

Mohammed had an 8 year old wife (peadophilia).

Although in the Quran he would limit his followers to having four wives, Mohammed himself took more than four wives and concubines.

It also poses a logical problem for Muslims. Because the Quran in Sura 4:3 forbids the taking of more than four wives, to have taken any more would have been sinful for Muhammad.

LIST OF MOHAMMED WIVES

1.Khadija 12. Hend
2. Sawda 13. Asma (of Saba)
3. Aesha 14. Zaynab (of Khozayma)
4. Omm Salama 15. Habla
5. Halsa 16. Asma (of Noman)
6. Zaynab (of Jahsh) 17. Mary (the Christian)
7. Jowayriyi 18. Rayhana
8. Omm Habiba 19. Omm Sharik
9. Safiya 20. Maymuna
10. Maymuna (of Hareth) 21. Zaynab (a third one)
11. Fatema 22. Khawla
12. Hend
13. Asma (of Saba)
14. Zaynab (of Khozayma)
15. Habla
16. Asma (of Noman)
17. Mary (the Christian)
18. Rayhana
19. Omm Sharik
20. Maymuna
21. Zaynab (a third one)
22. Khawla

The first 16 women were wives. Numbers 17 and 18 were slaves or concubines.

The last four women were neither wives or slaves but devout Muslim women who "gave" themselves to satisfy Muhammad's sexual desires.

Aesha was only eight or nine years old when Muhammad took her to his bed. According to Hadith, she was still playing with her dolls. This facet of Muhammad's sexual appetite is particularly distressing to christians and hindus.

This aspect of Muhammad's personal life is something that many scholars pass over once again because they do not want to hurt the feelings of Muslims. Yet, history cannot be rewritten to avoid confronting the facts that Muhammad had unnatural desires for little girls. Islam and Mohammed is immoral.

[Fatihah]

Let's give Mohammad the benefit of the doubt. Assume unless otherwise proven, that he did not have sexual relations with Aisha until she was ready for it. He did have other wives, so it wouldn't be unthinkable. The fact is that he still entered into a life-ling contract with a child. Does anyone really think that such a thing is appropriate?

Response: Yes, there are. However, there are those who don't because of there view of marriage. I can understand at first glance that the marriage to a child would be viewed as ill-advised in today's society because one does not look into marriage with a child in today's societies, and people marry for sexual reasons. But when we are given evidence that societies of the past practiced marriage to young females as common and not for sexual reasons, then we should not be making such pedophilia judgment on such practices. Especially when the same source in which you've learned of Aisha's marriage is from Aisha herself, who acknowledges Muhammad as the best of men whom she loved dearly. These are not the words of a rape victim ir one who was molested.

[inviere1644]

While Islam is yes, anti-female, so is Christianity. In Corinthians Paul says that

women should cover their heads with scarves to distinguish themselves from

prostitutes. In the Gospel of Thomas Jesus says that women may not enter the

kingdom of heaven. Recently the Southern Baptist convention proclaimed that women

may not hold a position of authority in the home, society, or the church. When my

friend, a former Mormon, asked her priest or watevr about applying to college, he

laughed and told her that she was a woman and her job was to stay home and have

babies.

[Woland]

Hello Fatihah,

1. Are you saying that informed consent isn't required for marriage in Islam (since a prepubescent child can be married to an -old- adult)?

or

2. Are you pretending that a 6 year old girl can give informed consent to marriage and all that it implies?

3. Do you really think that the alleged remarks by Aisha concerning Muhammad's "greatness" exonerate him from having set the dubious moral example of marrying a prepubescent child? Should we also excuse the perpetrators of atrocities when their victims have Stockholm's syndrome?

4. Can sex with female slaves be permissible in Islam when the slave owner is already married and the slave remains a slave?

Woland

[Fatihah]

While Islam is yes, anti-female, so is Christianity. In Corinthians Paul says that

women should cover their heads with scarves to distinguish themselves from

prostitutes. In the Gospel of Thomas Jesus says that women may not enter the

kingdom of heaven. Recently the Southern Baptist convention proclaimed that women

may not hold a position of authority in the home, society, or the church. When my

friend, a former Mormon, asked her priest or watevr about applying to college, he

laughed and told her that she was a woman and her job was to stay home and have

babies.

Response: Islam is clearly not anti-women, nor can you demonstrate otherwise.

[Fatihah]

Hello Fatihah,

1. Are you saying that informed consent isn't required for marriage in Islam (since a prepubescent child can be married to an -old- adult)?

or

2. Are you pretending that a 6 year old girl can give informed consent to marriage and all that it implies?

3. Do you really think that the alleged remarks by Aisha concerning Muhammad's "greatness" exonerate him from having set the dubious moral example of marrying a prepubescent child? Should we also excuse the perpetrators of atrocities when their victims have Stockholm's syndrome?

4. Can sex with female slaves be permissible in Islam when the slave owner is already married and the slave remains a slave?

Woland

Response:

1. The first question is rather odd, as it suggests that people consent to things without being informed, which is highly unlikely. In fact, it's not likely at all. One does not consent to something they have no knowledge of. But to answer your question, marriage is valid as long as the two consent. Whether the person was informed or not does not matter, for if the person wishes to consent without being informed, that is there decision. But again, consenting to something without being informed is not likely.

2. Yes. A 6 year old can give informed consent to marriage and all that it implies. Can a 6 year old consent? Yes. Can a 6 year old be informed? Yes. Then since a 6 year old is capable of consenting and being informed, such consent is not impossible. And naturally, if a 6 year consented to something or anyone and disliked it later, they are not forced to continue to consent in islam. Aisha loved Muhammad dearly with no complaint, thus she was happy to consent to marriage with him and all that there marriage detailed.

3. Yes. Since Aisha herself nor the society in which she lived, nor her parents disapproved of her marriage to Muhammad, he should be exonerated. No harm came to Aisha from the marriage. In fact, it is because of the marriage that Aisha floursihed so well as she did.

4. Yes. Islam allows up to 4 wives. As long as the limit does not exceed 4, then the co-wife is permissible. Muhammad however was a prophet, thus having greater discipline, humility, and respinsibility than other muslims. As such, he was granted more than 4.

[LiamOS]

But again, consenting to something without being informed is not likely.

1. The first question is rather odd, as it suggests that people consent to things without being informed, which is highly unlikely. In fact, it's not likely at all.

"I have read and accept the terms of this user agreement."
How often do you actually read the license or user agreement?

2. Yes. A 6 year old can give informed consent to marriage and all that it implies. Can a 6 year old consent? Yes. Can a 6 year old be informed? Yes.

I get the funny feeling that this is just opinion, so I'm going to step in here.
A child of six years cannot give informed consent for something such as marriage.
Here are two examples of when consent is not informed consent:

# A person may verbally agree to something from fear, perceived social pressure, or psychological difficulty in asserting his true feelings. The person requesting the action may honestly be unaware of this and believe the consent is genuine, and rely upon it. Consent is expressed, but not internally given.
# A person may state he understands the implications of some action, as part of his consent, but in fact has failed to appreciate the possible consequences fully and later deny the validity of his consent for this reason. Understanding needed for informed consent is stated to be present but is in fact (through ignorance) not present.

Furthermore, developmental psychologists will almost unanimously agree that a six-year old cannot make an informed decision, as they lack the ability to use necessary logic and apply reason to hypothetical situations.

In this stage [from 11 years old], individuals move beyond concrete experiences and begin to think abstractly, reason logically and draw conclusions from the information available, as well as apply all these processes to hypothetical situations.

Pieget, along with almost any other developmental psychologists seems to disagree with you strongly.
Do you disagree with science?

[Woland]

Hello Fatihah,

1. The first question is rather odd, as it suggests that people consent to things without being informed, which is highly unlikely. In fact, it's not likely at all. One does not consent to something they have no knowledge of. But to answer your question, marriage is valid as long as the two consent. Whether the person was informed or not does not matter, for if the person wishes to consent without being informed, that is there decision. But again, consenting to something without being informed is not likely.

Your answer suggests that a 6 year old should legally (as per "the law of Allah") be able to consent to marriage (even with a polygamous adult). Do you think that a 4 year old can give consent to marriage? How about 3, or 2? "As long as they can say yes, then it's all good in Islam's books"?

Do you have any notion of child psychology at all?

Many people consent to all sorts of things without having any clue as to the implications of their consent (like...practicing Islam for example, which is why many converts and other raised-as-Muslims "opt out" when they realize what the religion is actually about, apologetics and peacefulness claims notwithstanding), and they pay dearly.

That Islam allows children to make decisions whose implications they do not understand in the slightest is more than a little disturbing.

Are you actually trying to pretend that a 6 year old child who's playing with dolls has a valid idea of what marriage represents, so that she may agree to it or refuse it (especially when her parents and their self-described "prophet" desire it)?

Do you disagree with prominent child psychology experts? On what basis? "Islam"?

"We Muslims can love and marry prepubescent children who've yet to develop both psychologically and biologically if they say yes when asked if they want to marry us"?
Is this love in Islam?

Also, I noticed that you did not answer my fourth question at all. I'm confused because it was bolded so as to emphazise its clear wording.

Let me try again.

Can sex with female slaves be permissible in Islam when the slave owner is already married and the slave remains a slave?

Do you see anything here mentioning that the slaves are wives?

Tell me, can a married slave owner have sex with female slaves who are not their wives in Islam, or not?

Can a Muslim marry a slave who remains a slave even when married to her owner?

-Woland

[Fatihah]

But again, consenting to something without being informed is not likely.

1. The first question is rather odd, as it suggests that people consent to things without being informed, which is highly unlikely. In fact, it's not likely at all.

"I have read and accept the terms of this user agreement."
How often do you actually read the license or user agreement?

2. Yes. A 6 year old can give informed consent to marriage and all that it implies. Can a 6 year old consent? Yes. Can a 6 year old be informed? Yes.

I get the funny feeling that this is just opinion, so I'm going to step in here.
A child of six years cannot give informed consent for something such as marriage.
Here are two examples of when consent is not informed consent:

# A person may verbally agree to something from fear, perceived social pressure, or psychological difficulty in asserting his true feelings. The person requesting the action may honestly be unaware of this and believe the consent is genuine, and rely upon it. Consent is expressed, but not internally given.
# A person may state he understands the implications of some action, as part of his consent, but in fact has failed to appreciate the possible consequences fully and later deny the validity of his consent for this reason. Understanding needed for informed consent is stated to be present but is in fact (through ignorance) not present.

Furthermore, developmental psychologists will almost unanimously agree that a six-year old cannot make an informed decision, as they lack the ability to use necessary logic and apply reason to hypothetical situations.

In this stage [from 11 years old], individuals move beyond concrete experiences and begin to think abstractly, reason logically and draw conclusions from the information available, as well as apply all these processes to hypothetical situations.

Pieget, along with almost any other developmental psychologists seems to disagree with you strongly.
Do you disagree with science?

Response: In short, you believe that a 6 year old is incompotent. That a 6 year old is unintelligent. Words with no substance and a big generalization. If you couldn't give informed consent at 6, then that is your difficiency. But don't input your difficiency on every other.

[LiamOS]

In short, you believe that a 6 year old is incompotent. That a 6 year old is unintelligent. Words with no substance and a big generalization. If you couldn't give informed consent at 6, then that is your difficiency. But don't input your difficiency on every other.

I think you'll find that my words have substance. I have linked you to a wikipedia article on child development which outlines how children under the age of 11 are not capable of making logic and reasoned decisions based on hypothetical situations.

It is your words that are without substance; I challenge you to find an expert in the field of developmental psychology who agrees with you.

[Fatihah]

Hello Fatihah,

1. The first question is rather odd, as it suggests that people consent to things without being informed, which is highly unlikely. In fact, it's not likely at all. One does not consent to something they have no knowledge of. But to answer your question, marriage is valid as long as the two consent. Whether the person was informed or not does not matter, for if the person wishes to consent without being informed, that is there decision. But again, consenting to something without being informed is not likely.

Your answer suggests that a 6 year old should legally (as per "the law of Allah") be able to consent to marriage (even with a polygamous adult). Do you think that a 4 year old can give consent to marriage? How about 3, or 2? "As long as they can say yes, then it's all good in Islam's books"?

Do you have any notion of child psychology at all?

Many people consent to all sorts of things without having any clue as to the implications of their consent (like...practicing Islam for example, which is why many converts and other raised-as-Muslims "opt out" when they realize what the religion is actually about, apologetics and peacefulness claims notwithstanding), and they pay dearly.

That Islam allows children to make decisions whose implications they do not understand in the slightest is more than a little disturbing.

Are you actually trying to pretend that a 6 year old child who's playing with dolls has a valid idea of what marriage represents, so that she may agree to it or refuse it (especially when her parents and their self-described "prophet" desire it)?

Do you disagree with prominent child psychology experts? On what basis? "Islam"?

"We Muslims can love and marry prepubescent children who've yet to develop both psychologically and biologically if they say yes when asked if they want to marry us"?
Is this love in Islam?

Also, I noticed that you did not answer my fourth question at all. I'm confused because it was bolded so as to emphazise its clear wording.

Let me try again.

Can sex with female slaves be permissible in Islam when the slave owner is already married and the slave remains a slave?

Do you see anything here mentioning that the slaves are wives?

Tell me, can a married slave owner have sex with female slaves who are not their wives in Islam, or not?

Can a Muslim marry a slave who remains a slave even when married to her owner?

-Woland

Response: Let me first begin by saying that if you wish on asking several questions at a time, that is fine. But if you wish to bring a rebuttle to every answer provided to your questions, then I would prefer you ask a question one at a time. For it is much more convenient for me to focus and respond because there's no telling how lengthy my or your answer will be. So responding to several questions at a time leaves me to have to spend a lot of time just to answer one post. In one conveesation I had with you, I kept timing out because of the several questions you like to ask all at once.

Coming to your questions:

1. It is not of high interest to marry a child in islam. In other words, islam does not strongly advocate such marriages. Yet, it is allowed. Marriage to a child is allowed, as long as the permission is granted from the parent and the child consents. Again, marriage in islam does not mean to have sex, but love care and provide for someone and build an close bond. So yes, a 4 year old, 2 year old or whatever can consent to having someone care for them. Also, I never once stated that islam allows children to make decisions in which they don't understand. So your point is without merit.


2. I've answered your question, as I've made it clear in previous posts to you and in response to the opening post that sex is only permitted between man and woman within a marriage. So asking whether is allows sex with slaves who are not there wives is a question of no relevance.
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