Why is God Hidden?

[Bro Dave]

Let’s, just for the sake of this conversation, accept that God exists, and has “always” existed(although that word has no meaning outside of a time/space reference) Let us also consider that if God were to create a time/space universe for the purpose of creating beings with the potential of achieving a relative perfection, He would by necessity, need to remain hidden. This is because imperfect beings, scurrying around gaining experience, are doing so only because of some relative level of discomfort. If God were to be right there, provably present and directly contactable, the entire focus of survival would be for God to create a welfare state where they are taken care of with no effort on their part, and therefore, no chance of further growth. This would be entirely counter to His reason for their creation! However, God would have to be available in some way, to share in those experiences, and to guide his Kids. So, God, being spirit, gives his Kids that attribute as well, in the form of a soul. And so the partnership begins; God and humankind, experiencing this material realm. The human making judgment calls, and he/she and God experiencing the results. Good calls, make life a little easier. Bad calls, lead to more difficult, but even richer experiences, all of which eventuates in wisdom and therefore growth of the human soul.

Bro Dave

[ST88]

That's an interesting hypothesis. There are other reasons why God would want to remain hidden, including increasing the magesty and wonder of worship, and also allowing the creation of a master class of priests who may have been structurally easier to deal with than the hoi polloi.

But the original story of Eden included a visible, even personified God. Even if taken as metaphor, this story would indicate that God was just a conversation away. The visibility plan broke down eventually & God had to change his tactics, I suppose.

And if that is not acceptable, there are the other prophets who either spoke to God or were conduits through which God spoke to others. Either way, the contact is direct and God is not hidden. And then there's the whole Christ story. By all accounts God chose to allow his son to interact with humanity in his name. Not exactly a recipe for anonymity.

[QED]

And this is this the most suspicious part to a suspicious mind... God is reported to have been very visible to a select few during a particularly active period while the authors of the bible were doing their stuff. Then it all went quiet very quiet. Of course this comment will come across in many different ways depending on the world-view of the reader.

In particular for those people who correctly interpret the magnitude of geological timescales as dwarfing the window of humans existence, it has to be seen as an incredible coincidence that after a couple of million years (at almost the exact point where the technology of writing was properly established) god decides to put on a performance for us so the bible can be written. Why was this period chosen? Did god have something against the stone carvers of the Egyptian dynasties for example?

[Bro Dave]

…But the original story of Eden included a visible, even personified God. Even if taken as metaphor, this story would indicate that God was just a conversation away. The visibility plan broke down eventually & God had to change his tactics, I suppose.

Well, the Bible version was given in a very different time, and to a very different culture. In actuality, the plan did fail, not because of a serpent or the eating of an apple. It was an administration problem, with Lucifer bringing down 30+ other planets. This caused the isolation we have been enduring.

And if that is not acceptable, there are the other prophets who either spoke to God or were conduits through which God spoke to others. Either way, the contact is direct and God is not hidden.

You are correct, God actually is NOT hidden. However, he seems “not present” to the masses, because access is on the level of the individual. God did not create us to be mindless robots. He created us with free will, so that if and when we decide to seek Him, it is OUR choice.

And then there's the whole Christ story. By all accounts God chose to allow his son to interact with humanity in his name. Not exactly a recipe for anonymity.

The plan was for Jesus to bring us the 4th in a series of revelations. His was to show us God the Father, in every way we are capable of understanding Him. He did NOT come here to be slaughtered! He was seen as a political threat to the political and the religious hierarchy.

Bro Dave

[Bro Dave]

And this is this the most suspicious part to a suspicious mind... God is reported to have been very visible to a select few during a particularly active period while the authors of the bible were doing their stuff. Then it all went quiet very quiet. Of course this comment will come across in many different ways depending on the world-view of the reader.

In particular for those people who correctly interpret the magnitude of geological timescales as dwarfing the window of humans existence, it has to be seen as an incredible coincidence that after a couple of million years (at almost the exact point where the technology of writing was properly established) god decides to put on a performance for us so the bible can be written. Why was this period chosen? Did god have something against the stone carvers of the Egyptian dynasties for example?

You have put you finger on one of the primary reasons the decision was made to give mankind its 5th update, and try to straighten out what actually went on. It a long story but fascinating story, but you may not be up to the investigating the 679 pages which cover our little planet,(known to the rest of the universe as Urantia). However, incase you are curious, here’s a link;

http://urantiabook.org/newbook/index.html

It’s the index, but Part III is the story of our planet.

Bro Dave

[QED]

You have put you finger on one of the primary reasons the decision was made to give mankind its 5th update, and try to straighten out what actually went on. It a long story but fascinating story, but you may not be up to the investigating the 679 pages which cover our little planet,(known to the rest of the universe as Urantia). However, incase you are curious, here’s a link;

http://urantiabook.org/newbook/index.html

It’s the index, but Part III is the story of our planet.

Bro Dave

Too 'Corny' for my tastes Bro

[Bro Dave]

You have put you finger on one of the primary reasons the decision was made to give mankind its 5th update, and try to straighten out what actually went on. It a long story but fascinating story, but you may not be up to the investigating the 679 pages which cover our little planet,(known to the rest of the universe as Urantia). However, incase you are curious, here’s a link;

http://urantiabook.org/newbook/index.html

It’s the index, but Part III is the story of our planet.

Bro Dave

Too 'Corny' for my tastes Bro

And so, you find the "Happy Accident" explaination more satisfying?

Bro Dave

[QED]

Too 'Corny' for my tastes Bro

And so, you find the "Happy Accident" explaination more satisfying?

Ah, pity. You obviously missed my cute reference to the fact that the Urantia Book was allegedly channeled by Wilfred Kellogg (of the famous breakfast serial dynasty). But you raise an interesting point. Accidents can be every bit as inevitable as the outcome of deliberate action so I can't really see a distinction. You're right to assume that I haven't read the book although I have read enough about it to appreciate why it exists.

skepdic.com has this to say:

In short, the UB is over 2,000 pages of "revelations" from superhuman beings which "correct" the errors and omissions of the Bible. "Urantia" is the name these alleged superhumans gave to our planet. According to these supermortal beings, Earth is the 606th planet in Satania which is in Norlatiadek which is in Nebadon which is in Orvonton which revolves around Havona, all of which revolves around the center of infinity where God dwells.

I assume it's a fair summary. So tell me, are there any litmus tests or predictions that can be validated in the book or is it wholly reliant on the readers faith?

[Bro Dave]

Too 'Corny' for my tastes Bro

And so, you find the "Happy Accident" explaination more satisfying?

Ah, pity. You obviously missed my cute reference to the fact that the Urantia Book was allegedly channeled by Wilfred Kellogg (of the famous breakfast serial dynasty).

In order for humor to work, it must contain a seed of truth, which, unfortunately, was entirely missing.

But you raise an interesting point. Accidents can be every bit as inevitable as the outcome of deliberate action so I can't really see a distinction.

The distinction is in the luck involved. Pick an isolated event, and it is nearly guaranteed to occur, given enough time. However, pair it with another event, and require the occur simultaneously, and the odds go way down. Add all the "fortutious" confluences of all the life on our planet, and there is no possiblilty of it being accidental.
Take the eye. There is engineering at its delicate best! Think just of the number of highly specialized, transparent tissues that all come together optically, and not only focused, but wired in a way we really cannot comprehend, to a brain that makes sense of it all. Lucky.... REAL "lucky"!

You're right to assume that I haven't read the book although I have read enough about it to appreciate why it exists.

skepdic.com has this to say:

In short, the UB is over 2,000 pages of "revelations" from superhuman beings which "correct" the errors and omissions of the Bible. "Urantia" is the name these alleged superhumans gave to our planet. According to these supermortal beings, Earth is the 606th planet in Satania which is in Norlatiadek which is in Nebadon which is in Orvonton which revolves around Havona, all of which revolves around the center of infinity where God dwells.

I assume it's a fair summary.

Not bad, but what can you expect of a couple sentences attempting to summarize 2000+ pages of information. I much prefer the Wikipedia summary. Being in no way associated with the UB, yet managing to be a good overview.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urantia

So tell me, are there any litmus tests or predictions that can be validated in the book or is it wholly reliant on the readers faith?

If I may, here is a good link that addresses this rather well.

http://www.urantiabook.org/archive/readers/doc184.htm

Bro Dave

[QED]

In order for humor to work, it must contain a seed of truth, which, unfortunately, was entirely missing.

So Kellog had nothing to do with it then?

The distinction is in the luck involved. Pick an isolated event, and it is nearly guaranteed to occur, given enough time. However, pair it with another event, and require the occur simultaneously, and the odds go way down.

Agreed.

Add all the "fortutious" confluences of all the life on our planet, and there is no possiblilty of it being accidental.
Take the eye. There is engineering at its delicate best! Think just of the number of highly specialized, transparent tissues that all come together optically, and not only focused, but wired in a way we really cannot comprehend, to a brain that makes sense of it all. Lucky.... REAL "lucky"!

Oh dear Dave! I'm not the most eloquent of 'explainers' here, but there is a very simple explanation for this apparently improbable outcome. Unfortunately it is so simple and I can't imagine that you have never been presented with it, so I must sadly conclude that you have set up a mental block about the issue. I'm going to go briefly off-topic to present you with a hopefully different example of this that you could actually experiment with yourself if you wanted to:

If you had ever owned a copy of Photoshop equipped with a "Kais Power tools" plug-in you might have been familiar with the concept of directed randomness. In the case of the computer software I mention, an series of random choices by the program produce an array of visual textures (images). If you wanted, for example to make an image of wood-grain you would start by studying the selection of images the program first puts up. Of these you would choose the one which looks most like wood-grain (of course none look anything like it (yet)) but you choose the closest nonetheless.

Then from this choice the program breeds a new selection of images based on the properties (genes) of the one you just chose and introduces random variations on these properties in order to create an new selection of images -- from which, once again, you choose the one that most looks like wood-grain.

As you repeat this exercise, the images presented to you become more and more like the sort of target you have in mind. Infact, so powerful is this technique that you can end up with such a knotty old woodworm infested tree-trunk that anyone else could be fooled into thinking that it was a real image.

Now what this demonstrates is that by adding direction to randomness we can take away all the 'luck' -- so long as the direction is consistent, the accumulation of random influences results in something complex and coherent. In the case of the eye, the 'direction' is that creatures with better eyesight win in the global arms-race that is life. That's all it takes.