Christians Favor Abortion

[Zzyzx]

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Many Christians here and elsewhere claim to be very opposed to abortion. BUT when confronted with an unwanted pregnancy Christian women (including Evangelicals) have the very abortion they claim to oppose – a half a million times per year.

A 1994/95 survey (2,3) of nearly 10,000 abortion patients showed 18% of women having abortions are born-again or Evangelical Christians. Many of these women are likely anti-choice. The survey also showed that Catholic women have an abortion rate 29% higher than Protestant women. A Planned Parenthood handbook on abortion notes that nearly half of all abortions are for women who describe themselves as born-again Christian, Evangelical Christian, or Catholic.

http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html

The article has several ironic citations about "Pro-Life" women who have abortions including this one:

"I've had several cases over the years in which the anti-abortion patient had rationalized in one way or another that her case was the only exception, but the one that really made an impression was the college senior who was the president of her campus Right-to-Life organization, meaning that she had worked very hard in that organization for several years. As I was completing her procedure, I asked what she planned to do about her high office in the RTL organization. Her response was a wide-eyed, 'You're not going to tell them, are you!?' When assured that I was not, she breathed a sigh of relief, explaining how important that position was to her and how she wouldn't want this to interfere with it." (Physician, Texas)

Another article

A new study by The Center For Reason (www.CenterForReason.com) finds that Christians have just as many abortions as their non-Christian counterparts. The study concludes that in the year 2000, Christians were responsible for 570,000 abortions. Catholics were found to be the worst offenders, with abortion rates higher than the national average.
http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/articles/ ... rtion.html

Question for debate:

If Christian women have more than half a million abortions per year how can the Christian anti-abortion stance NOT be hypocritical?

[Vanguard]

However, I can state that if a person supports an organization that opposed abortion AND speaks against abortion then has an abortion, I DO consider them a hypocrite. If they just support the organization (say lukewarm) without personal opposition to abortion, I may view them less harshly (as only semi-hypocritical) if they have an abortion.

I believe your comments here strike closer to the intent of my question. You have added an additional criteria for determining hypocracy regards to the topic by stating, "...and speaks against abortion" (my emphasis added). Forgive me if this is something you have stated all along though I did not come across it in my cursory reading of the thread?

Is it possible that a good number of these women did not personally "speak against" abortion though belonging to an organization (i.e., religion) that was against it? That being the case, wouldn't this suggest the possibility that a good number of those listed in your earlier stats were not behaving hypocritically?

Don't misunderstand me, I wouldn't be surprised to find out many of these women actively spoke out against others who would have an abortion all the while keeping their own out of the public eye. Your mention of the young woman who pleaded with her physician to keep her own abortion private was classic. That being the case, I am compelled to consider those types of actions to be highly hypocritical.

[Zzyzx]

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However, I can state that if a person supports an organization that opposed abortion AND speaks against abortion then has an abortion, I DO consider them a hypocrite. If they just support the organization (say lukewarm) without personal opposition to abortion, I may view them less harshly (as only semi-hypocritical) if they have an abortion.

I believe your comments here strike closer to the intent of my question. You have added an additional criteria for determining hypocracy regards to the topic by stating, "...and speaks against abortion" (my emphasis added). Forgive me if this is something you have stated all along though I did not come across it in my cursory reading of the thread?

Is it possible that a good number of these women did not personally "speak against" abortion though belonging to an organization (i.e., religion) that was against it? That being the case, wouldn't this suggest the possibility that a good number of those listed in your earlier stats were not behaving hypocritically?

Don't misunderstand me, I wouldn't be surprised to find out many of these women actively spoke out against others who would have an abortion all the while keeping their own out of the public eye. Your mention of the young woman who pleaded with her physician to keep her own abortion private was classic. That being the case, I am compelled to consider those types of actions to be highly hypocritical.

We are probably not very far apart on this issue. My comment from post #22 did specify vocal opposition.

Of greater significance in my opinion, is the willingness of a half a million Christian women (and presumably some, many or most of men by whom they became pregnant) to go directly against the teachings they claim to follow -- when a matter of convenience or personal preference arises. As the article mentions, many Christian women who have abortions TALK opposition but switch sides when the matter when they become personally involved with an unwanted pregnancy.

I assume that there are many "Nominal Christians" among those who have abortions – and some middle-of-the-road – and probably some fanatics.

However, it strikes me as absurd that ONE MILLION women who identify themselves as Christians have an abortion ("commit murder" according to many preachers) in less than two years (according to surveys).

Perhaps that is somehow excusable as not being hypocritical . . . . . I leave that to others to "explain".

[micatala]

.

However, I can state that if a person supports an organization that opposed abortion AND speaks against abortion then has an abortion, I DO consider them a hypocrite. If they just support the organization (say lukewarm) without personal opposition to abortion, I may view them less harshly (as only semi-hypocritical) if they have an abortion.

I believe your comments here strike closer to the intent of my question. You have added an additional criteria for determining hypocracy regards to the topic by stating, "...and speaks against abortion" (my emphasis added). Forgive me if this is something you have stated all along though I did not come across it in my cursory reading of the thread?

Is it possible that a good number of these women did not personally "speak against" abortion though belonging to an organization (i.e., religion) that was against it? That being the case, wouldn't this suggest the possibility that a good number of those listed in your earlier stats were not behaving hypocritically?

Don't misunderstand me, I wouldn't be surprised to find out many of these women actively spoke out against others who would have an abortion all the while keeping their own out of the public eye. Your mention of the young woman who pleaded with her physician to keep her own abortion private was classic. That being the case, I am compelled to consider those types of actions to be highly hypocritical.

We are probably not very far apart on this issue. My comment from post #22 did specify vocal opposition.

Of greater significance in my opinion, is the willingness of a half a million Christian women (and presumably some, many or most of men by whom they became pregnant) to go directly against the teachings they claim to follow -- when a matter of convenience or personal preference arises. As the article mentions, many Christian women who have abortions TALK opposition but switch sides when the matter when they become personally involved with an unwanted pregnancy.

I assume that there are many "Nominal Christians" among those who have abortions – and some middle-of-the-road – and probably some fanatics.

However, it strikes me as absurd that ONE MILLION women who identify themselves as Christians have an abortion ("commit murder" according to many preachers) in less than two years (according to surveys).

Perhaps that is somehow excusable as not being hypocritical . . . . . I leave that to others to "explain".

I think what we need is some inclination of how many or what percentage of Christian women oppose or speak against abortion. We could also consider voting.

I will note, for example, that a ban on abortion in SD went down 55% to 45%. Only 45% of all SD voters "spoke against" abortion in this way, pretty equally divided between men and women.


See http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/result ... al=SDI01p1
for the exit polling.

33% of white evangelical voters voted against the ban, which is certainly considerably less than the 55% overall count, but you still have 1 out of 3 white evangelicals not supporting the ban. There does not seem to be info on catholics.

Now, if 18% of evangelical women have had an abortion and assuming this percentage is roughly the same in South Dakota, we could ask how many of these are among the 33% or so of evangelical women in SD who opposed the ban, and how many among the 67% who supported the ban. Certainly it stretches the imagination to suppose that all of the 18% are among the 33%, but it could be and is even quite plausible that the vast majority are.

[Confused]

Zzyzx, your threads are the most difficult to decide if they belong in the C&A Forum or another one. I am moving this to the Right and Wrong Forum as it pertains to Christian choices and whether they are right or wrong (hypocritical) on the stance of abortion. If you have a better thread you think it might work in, PM myself or another moderator.

[OnceConvinced]

Just started reading this thread now...

It is very sad that any christian would have an abortion but I think far to many people refer to themselves as christians but don't ever practice the faith.

I was wondering when the first "They were never true Christians" argument would come up. We have a winner!

Abortion is murder and should never be an option. It is a selfish option that only let's the mother continue to make poor choices without dealing with the concequences. Proverbs 6 :16 should make any christian realize God hates abortion. "Six things the Lord hates, a proud look, a lying tounge, and hands that shed innocent blood. There is no blood more innocent than that of an unborn child. I just lost a six figure job and am now trying to make everything work and my wife just had a baby, abortion would make economic sence to the world but we will trust God and now have a healthy baby girl I would not trade for anything

A true christian is someone who follows and lives what Jesus taught not just give lip service. Why would being selfish ever be good? Do you not feel bad for the unborn child or the couple who wants to adopt? The mother robs that from everyone to keep herself as happy and inconvenienced as possible

So because these people committed abortion they are not true Christians? So what about the ones who tell white lies, the ones who are proud or the ones who envy. Are they also in the same boat when you condemn these people as "not practising the faith"? Sure you can call them hypocrites as JGH has done, but I don't think you can just flag them away as not being true Christ followers. Are you perfect? Do you still sin at times? Does that mean you are not a true follower of Christ?

Why don't you ask OnceConvinced
in all the years he was a "Christian"
if he is aware of ANY abortions from his co-Christians?

I am not personally aware of any. But I would suspect that if they were done, they would have been done in secret without others in the church being aware of it. It's all about pride. Most Christians don't want other Christians knowing that they have fallen morally.

I would agree that just because there are hypocrites does not mean that the religion is wrong and I also maintain that it doesn't necessarily make them "false Christians" as Lastcalhall seems to be presuming.

It is very sad that any christian would have an abortion but I think far to many people refer to themselves as christians but don't ever practice the faith. Abortion is murder and should never be an option. It is a selfish option that only let's the mother continue to make poor choices without dealing with the concequences. Proverbs 6 :16 should make any christian realize God hates abortion. "Six things the Lord hates, a proud look, a lying tounge, and hands that shed innocent blood. There is no blood more innocent than that of an unborn child. I just lost a six figure job and am now trying to make everything work and my wife just had a baby, abortion would make economic sence to the world but we will trust God and now have a healthy baby girl I would not trade for anything

Numbers 5 has a procedure for inducing a miscarriage, also known as an abortion described in it. If you look at the the spirit 'I.e. soul' does not enter the body until 'the breath of life' enters the body. (see Genesis 2.7). Until then, a body can not be considered an 'innocent life' (I am assuming you are talking about Proverbs 6:17, not 6:16).

And, exodus 21:22-23 makes it clear that a death of a fetus is not murder.

I never knew about this. I'm surprised I haven't seen this argument used before. I guess there aren't too many Christians who would want to be seen as supporting abortion, especially when the Christian church claims to be against it and Christians are condemned by other Christians if they do it or even support it.

............................
Now my response to the OP:

If I'd seen these figures while still a Christian, I would have been very disturbed by them. I think it just goes to show you what some Christians will do to avoid the humiation of being seen as a "sinner". OK, I'm assuming that a lot of these abortions are due to pregnancies outside of wedlock and they are Christians trying to "save face". I may be wrong, but I'm also very cynical and knowing many Christians myself, I know that to look like a hypocrite or to even be seen as not being a "true Christian" would be something they'd want to avoid at all costs. They want people to see them as righteous, holy, favoured by God, an example to others etc etc.

I've seen even my own sister (a "holier than though", self-righteous Christian) bring her wedding day forward by a few months after she discovered she was pregnant. She didn't want people to know that and even seemed to think she could hide the truth. So on her wedding day nobody knew she was pregnant. But about 6 months later the baby was born. Hellooooo, who was she trying to kid? Why was she so intent on hiding the fact she had gotten herself pregnant before marriage? Due to pride of course. Not wanting to look bad amongst all those other Christians at the wedding. And also because a few years earlier she was going on about how "nobody in our family would have a baby outside of wedlock, unless one of them did something stupid". ("one of them" being myself and my other sister)

My other sister is a non-christian "living in sin" and never been pregnant. And I've never have a child outside of wedlock. Talk about a humbling experience for my Christian sister. She's never once been self-righteous and condescending to either of us since.

Ok, I know I've waffled on a bit, but the idea was to demonstrate just what some Christians will do to avoid looking bad in the eyes of others. I guess the abortion figures shouldn't be that surprising really.

[PeaceWolf]

It is very sad that any christian would have an abortion but I think far to many people refer to themselves as christians but don't ever practice the faith. Abortion is murder and should never be an option. It is a selfish option that only let's the mother continue to make poor choices without dealing with the concequences. Proverbs 6 :16 should make any christian realize God hates abortion. "Six things the Lord hates, a proud look, a lying tounge, and hands that shed innocent blood. There is no blood more innocent than that of an unborn child. I just lost a six figure job and am now trying to make everything work and my wife just had a baby, abortion would make economic sence to the world but we will trust God and now have a healthy baby girl I would not trade for anything

What if the pregnancy wasn't the women's choice? What if she was a victim of sexual assault? Should she face the consequences of the man's wrongdoing? For some reason, this just doesn't seem right. There are circumstances you must consider before you jump to conclusions.

Where I am, I hear a lot of Christian men speaking out against abortion. For some reason, I don't feel swayed by them -- they'll never face that decision, and they'll never have to worry.

[shondaypoo]

Just so everyone knows Statistics are numbers that are played with and can be persuaded one way or the other.Do not believe the numbers that (THEY) who are they any way? Numbers are manipulated to opinionated writters!

[Raptor_Jesus]

I personally find abortion to be considered murder. Why? Your pretty much killing a newborn, is that not a big deal?

I'm guessing mostly everyone on here is familiar with the Ten Commandments, the one thats being implied, "Thou shall not kill". Is killing a newborn not actually killing? Therefore is killing a newborn not sinful at all?

In the same way more Christians contradict themselves by supporting the "War on Terror". They may not be the ones actually fighting, but shouldn't supporting any war be just as bad?

[Cathar1950]

I personally find abortion to be considered murder. Why? Your pretty much killing a newborn, is that not a big deal?

I'm guessing mostly everyone on here is familiar with the Ten Commandments, the one thats being implied, "Thou shall not kill". Is killing a newborn not actually killing? Therefore is killing a newborn not sinful at all?

In the same way more Christians contradict themselves by supporting the "War on Terror". They may not be the ones actually fighting, but shouldn't supporting any war be just as bad?

How distasteful you find it is not the issue. I think it should be between a doctor and the women. If we think it is distasteful then we need to work on making it less desirable and unneeded in constructive ways. I find it odd that people that are against abortion are also against birth control, welfare, sex education, planed parenthood, health care, and all kinds of things that might make the world a better place for the children that are born and the parents.
"Thou shall not kill" seems to be ignored when their god commands them to kill every man woman and child or all the the virgin females. Appealing to Biblical law is not much of an argument especially with the arbitrary and self serving way Biblical commands are often used.
A fetus is not a newborn.

[Raptor_Jesus]

I personally find abortion to be considered murder. Why? Your pretty much killing a newborn, is that not a big deal?

I'm guessing mostly everyone on here is familiar with the Ten Commandments, the one thats being implied, "Thou shall not kill". Is killing a newborn not actually killing? Therefore is killing a newborn not sinful at all?

In the same way more Christians contradict themselves by supporting the "War on Terror". They may not be the ones actually fighting, but shouldn't supporting any war be just as bad?

How distasteful you find it is not the issue. I think it should be between a doctor and the women. If we think it is distasteful then we need to work on making it less desirable and unneeded in constructive ways. I find it odd that people that are against abortion are also against birth control, welfare, sex education, planed parenthood, health care, and all kinds of things that might make the world a better place for the children that are born and the parents.
"Thou shall not kill" seems to be ignored when their god commands them to kill every man woman and child or all the the virgin females. Appealing to Biblical law is not much of an argument especially with the arbitrary and self serving way Biblical commands are often used.
A fetus is not a newborn.

Are you aware that most wars are still wars about religion? These wars have been going on for centuries, and will still be going on forever until one side gives up, which I'm sure no Christian here will just convert to Islam for whatever reason. Why do you think most people escaped to America? It was for the freedom to do whatever.

Why shouldn't a fetus be treated as a newborn? It WILL be someday, wouldn't it?