Muslims worship Muhammad…

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

OK, now no muslim would state that they worship Muhammad. They may even believe that they worship Allah alone, but their actions and creedal testimonies put Muhammad in a position that other religions reserve for God. Even Yeshua‘ in the Bible, and ancient Assyrians, as well as other pagan groups, exhorted that we as people imitate God to achieve the Good Life. Yeshua‘, for example, repeatedly states that people should copy God’s sense of mercy, justice, etc. Muslims, however, do their utmost to emulate Muhammad.

A couple of quotes. The first from the excellent contemporary scholarly book called Muslims: Their religious beliefs and practices by Andrew Rippin (don’t let the title fool you — he delves deep into the various elements that have combined to form Islam from its pre–history to the present day and includes current scholarship on Islam, challenging traditionally–accepted views on Islamic ‘history’):

While Muslims may think those who deny the existence of God or who utter blasphemies about Him are misguided, such discussions will not offend in the same manner in which discussions over Muhammad will. Those who insinuate evil of Muhammad or who cast aspersions on him are considered to be insulting Islam. This, upon consideration, is not surprising.

I know this myself, from having grown up in an Islamic community. It means muslims put Muhammad at the centre of Islam, not Allah! And the reactions Rippin notes above made me recall a passage I read in an autobiographical work by Ziauddin Sardar, a well–written and witty, not to mention interesting, book called Desperately Seeking Paradise. In this extract Sardar details his reaction to reading Rushdie’s The Satanic Verses:

Rushdie had plundered everything I hold dear and despoiled the inner sanctum of my identity. Every word was directed at me and I took everything personally. This is how, I remember thinking, it must feel to be raped… The life of the Prophet Muhammad is the source of Muslim identity. Muslims do not merely emulate his character and personality and follow his sayings and actions: it is the Prophet Muhammad who provides them with the ultimate reason for being a Muslim.

I do wonder if he or others would react like this if someone spoke out against Allah as opposed to Muhammad. Presented for your consideration: the reaction of muslims worldwide to the Danish cartoons (nobody lampooned Allah, only Muhammad), and the case of the Teddy Bear Named Muhammad (I recall some sources referring to this as ‘blasphemy’ — surely only a crime against God ranks as blasphemy?).

[Wyvern]

And how we started talking about Sudan? the discussion was, when you said that Islam was spread by force in Africa,, and it was a general topic about spread of religion, till now you have;nt given any justification of Christianity by force in Philipines

Stop trying to shift the discussion, if you want to concede the point and admit you were wrong and that Sudan was not forcibly converted to christianity but in fact was forcefully converted to islam we can then move onto the Phillipines. Until then you have not proven your point in fact you have proven mine with your website.

I have not commented on anything other than Sudan, but since you are so big on bringing proof let's see you proof of your statements about the Phillipines and ALL the rest of africa. Since you want to talk about everything at once let us see your proof that every single african country was forcefully converted to christianity as you claim. Time for you to put up or shut up.

Every1 knows Wyvern, go in history books, and find out, Islam came in Philipines through Indonesia, where no muslim army went, later Spanish came in 1500's and started killing muslims, and forcing them to be converted to Christianity.

Stop trying to shift the conversation, as I said in my previous post time for you to put up or shut up. That means bring your proof or go away. You keep harping about how everyone else needs to bring proof of what they say, now it is time for you to do so otherwise all your words are empty.

The thing which goes not with you, you just discard it, I can see what a neutral debatar you are Wyvern:)

So then when you pass an imam in the streets and say hello imam does that mean you are worshipping him?

Sorry Wyvern, you got your last try, youve lost it now, as plenty of options and time was given to you.

So you can not bring any evidence that Jesus told his followers to worship him which is just the same thing that can be said about Mohammed.

I never said that Jesus asked his followers to worship him, you ask christians why they worship Jesus.[/quote]
And I never said mohammed asked his followers to worship him either, so why did you ask me to prove that then?

[TrueReligion]

And how we started talking about Sudan? the discussion was, when you said that Islam was spread by force in Africa,, and it was a general topic about spread of religion, till now you have;nt given any justification of Christianity by force in Philipines

Stop trying to shift the discussion, if you want to concede the point and admit you were wrong and that Sudan was not forcibly converted to christianity but in fact was forcefully converted to islam we can then move onto the Phillipines. Until then you have not proven your point in fact you have proven mine with your website.

Its lack of your understanding Wyvern, you never admit thefacts, and change the views and words when you see they are against you, You could never prove a single thing tillnow in any post, and its quite evident and clear from other posts, that you change the meaning of the source and other user statements, in you own interpretations,and thn claim your part, but even than youcould;nt prove anything till now infact from your own side. What to say Wyvern, but its not going towards a nice debate now

I have not commented on anything other than Sudan, but since you are so big on bringing proof let's see you proof of your statements about the Phillipines and ALL the rest of africa. Since you want to talk about everything at once let us see your proof that every single african country was forcefully converted to christianity as you claim. Time for you to put up or shut up.

Every1 knows Wyvern, go in history books, and find out, Islam came in Philipines through Indonesia, where no muslim army went, later Spanish came in 1500's and started killing muslims, and forcing them to be converted to Christianity.

Stop trying to shift the conversation, as I said in my previous post time for you to put up or shut up. That means bring your proof or go away. You keep harping about how everyone else needs to bring proof of what they say, now it is time for you to do so otherwise all your words are empty.

Ive shown prove Wyvern, but you never accepted the, please be civil and good in conversation, using harsh words or shouting remarks, will just prove that you are on negative side as always:

The thing which goes not with you, you just discard it, I can see what a neutral debatar you are Wyvern:)

So then when you pass an imam in the streets and say hello imam does that mean you are worshipping him?

Bring proof Wyvern, that any muslim worship Muhammad. or consider yourself as a looser for this debate

Sorry Wyvern, you got your last try, youve lost it now, as plenty of options and time was given to you.

So you can not bring any evidence that Jesus told his followers to worship him which is just the same thing that can be said about Mohammed.

I never said that Jesus asked his followers to worship him, you ask christians why they worship Jesus.

And I never said mohammed asked his followers to worship him either, so why did you ask me to prove that then?[/quote]

Because you keep on insisting on false basis that Muslims worship Muhammad,if you can;t prove it, why did you claim it? bring evidence for it, otherwise backoff your claims

[Wyvern]

Stop trying to shift the discussion, if you want to concede the point and admit you were wrong and that Sudan was not forcibly converted to christianity but in fact was forcefully converted to islam we can then move onto the Phillipines. Until then you have not proven your point in fact you have proven mine with your website.

Its lack of your understanding Wyvern, you never admit thefacts, and change the views and words when you see they are against you, You could never prove a single thing tillnow in any post, and its quite evident and clear from other posts, that you change the meaning of the source and other user statements, in you own interpretations,and thn claim your part, but even than youcould;nt prove anything till now infact from your own side. What to say Wyvern, but its not going towards a nice debate now

Prove that I change the "views and words". Prove that I change the meaning of the source and other users. You like claiming I do all these things but never do you bother proving any of your charges. Come on you're a big boy prove that what I've said is wrong, you keep on about proof that everyone has to bring to a conversation but you apparently.

Ive shown prove Wyvern, but you never accepted the, please be civil and good in conversation, using harsh words or shouting remarks, will just prove that you are on negative side as always:

I must have missed this supposed proof of yours, care to repost it please? I am not using any harsh words I simply want you for once to provide some proof for all of the claims you keep making.

Bring proof Wyvern, that any muslim worship Muhammad. or consider yourself as a looser for this debate

The proof remains the same since you are not capable of showing it to be wrong. PBUH which you say whenever his name is mentioned is obviously a prayer to him.

Because you keep on insisting on false basis that Muslims worship Muhammad,if you can;t prove it, why did you claim it? bring evidence for it, otherwise backoff your claims.

How can I or why should I back off on my claims when you can not prove them wrong, what, are you going to come to my house and kill me for blaspheming the name of the prophet. That appears to be the standard islamic behavior when they think they or their prophet has been insulted.

[TrueReligion]

Stop trying to shift the discussion, if you want to concede the point and admit you were wrong and that Sudan was not forcibly converted to christianity but in fact was forcefully converted to islam we can then move onto the Phillipines. Until then you have not proven your point in fact you have proven mine with your website.

Its lack of your understanding Wyvern, you never admit thefacts, and change the views and words when you see they are against you, You could never prove a single thing tillnow in any post, and its quite evident and clear from other posts, that you change the meaning of the source and other user statements, in you own interpretations,and thn claim your part, but even than youcould;nt prove anything till now infact from your own side. What to say Wyvern, but its not going towards a nice debate now

Prove that I change the "views and words". Prove that I change the meaning of the source and other users. You like claiming I do all these things but never do you bother proving any of your charges. Come on you're a big boy prove that what I've said is wrong, you keep on about proof that everyone has to bring to a conversation but you apparently.

Were we discussing since begining of this post about Sudan? just tel me from how we reach to the discussion about Sudan?

Ive shown prove Wyvern, but you never accepted the, please be civil and good in conversation, using harsh words or shouting remarks, will just prove that you are on negative side as always:

I must have missed this supposed proof of yours, care to repost it please? I am not using any harsh words I simply want you for once to provide some proof for all of the claims you keep making.

ok, As you command Sir:)

Historical background:

In the 1500s, the Portuguese explorer Ferdinand Magellan encountered the Philippines while sailing under the flag of Spain in search of a western route to the East Indies, the source of the spice trade. He and his men landed on the island of Cebu in the central Philippines.

At this time period, almost nothing was known of the Philippines, and so our sources of information about pre-Hispanic societies in the country date from the early period of Spanish contact. Most Philippine communities, with the exception of the Muslim sultanates in the Sulu archipelago and Mindanao, were fairly small without a great deal of centralized authority. Authority was wielded by a variety of individuals, including 1) headmen, or datu; 2) warriors of great military prowess; and 3) individuals who possessed spiritual power or magical healing abilities.

The absence of centralized power meant that a small number of Spaniards were able to convert a large number of Filipinos living in politically autonomous units more easily than they could have, say, converted people living in large, organized, complex kingdoms such as those Hinduized or (later) Theravada Buddhist-influenced kingdoms in mainland Southeast Asia and on the island of Java in Indonesia. The Spanish were unsuccessful in converting Muslim Sultanates to Christianity, and in fact warred with Muslim Filipinos throughout their 300 year colonial rule from 1521 - 1898. Nor did they successfully conquer certain highland areas, such the Luzon highlands, where a diverse array of ethno-linguistic groups used their remote, difficult mountainous terrain to successfully avoid colonization.

Magellan's arrival in Cebu represents the first attempt by Spain to convert Filipinos to Roman Catholicism. The story goes that Magellan met with Chief Humabon of the island of Cebu, who had an ill grandson. Magellan (or one of his men) was able to cure or help this young boy, and in gratitude Chief Humabon allowed 800 of his followers to be 'baptized' Christian in a mass baptism. Later, Chief Lapu Lapu of Mactan Island killed Magellan and routed the ill-fated Spanish expedition. This resistance to Western intrusion makes this story an important part of the nationalist history of the Philippines. Many historians have claimed that the Philippines peacefully 'accepted' Spanish rule; the reality is that many insurgencies and rebellions continued on small scales in different places through the Hispanic colonial period.

After Magellan, the Spanish later sent the explorer Legaspi to the Philippines, and he conquered a Muslim Filipino settlement in Manila in 1570. Islam had been present in the southern Philippines since some time between the 10th and 12th century. It slowly spread north throughout the archipelago, particularly in coastal areas. Had it not been for Spanish intervention, the Philippines would likely have been a mostly Muslim area.

http://www.seasite.niu.edu/crossroads/r ... ianity.htm

Bring proof Wyvern, that any muslim worship Muhammad. or consider yourself as a looser for this debate

The proof remains the same since you are not capable of showing it to be wrong. PBUH which you say whenever his name is mentioned is obviously a prayer to him.

If you make this as a prayer, it means Jesus also prayed to his diciple, and the lawyers also make the Judge as their God, and pray to him, calling "ME Lord, ME Lord"
But muslims use (pbuh) with all the prophets, so means they worship all prophets?

Because you keep on insisting on false basis that Muslims worship Muhammad,if you can;t prove it, why did you claim it? bring evidence for it, otherwise backoff your claims.

How can I or why should I back off on my claims when you can not prove them wrong, what, are you going to come to my house and kill me for blaspheming the name of the prophet. That appears to be the standard islamic behavior when they think they or their prophet has been insulted.

This can be noted as a crying remarks from you Wyvern:) thought you are grown up boy Common, good boy, bring some proper evidence of your claim.

[Wyvern]

Prove that I change the "views and words". Prove that I change the meaning of the source and other users. You like claiming I do all these things but never do you bother proving any of your charges. Come on you're a big boy prove that what I've said is wrong, you keep on about proof that everyone has to bring to a conversation but you apparently.

Were we discussing since begining of this post about Sudan? just tel me from how we reach to the discussion about Sudan?

You are just as capable as I when it comes to searching for posts. Now how about you prove your claims that I change the "views and words" and the meaning of the source and other users. You require ithers to prove their statements it is only fair for you to do the same.

http://www.seasite.niu.edu/crossroads/r ... ianity.htm[/color][/b][/color]

How does this relate to Sudan? You insist on bringing in other unrelated topics before the first topic is finished.

If you make this as a prayer, it means Jesus also prayed to his diciple, and the lawyers also make the Judge as their God, and pray to him, calling "ME Lord, ME Lord"
But muslims use (pbuh) with all the prophets, so means they worship all prophets?

You seem to be unable to see the difference between talking to living people and talking to dead revered figures.

bring some proper evidence of your claim.

I have and you have yet to disprove it.

[otseng]

Time for you to put up or shut up.

Moderator comment:

Things like this would be best left unsaid.

[TrueReligion]

Prove that I change the "views and words". Prove that I change the meaning of the source and other users. You like claiming I do all these things but never do you bother proving any of your charges. Come on you're a big boy prove that what I've said is wrong, you keep on about proof that everyone has to bring to a conversation but you apparently.

Were we discussing since begining of this post about Sudan? just tel me from how we reach to the discussion about Sudan?

You are just as capable as I when it comes to searching for posts. Now how about you prove your claims that I change the "views and words" and the meaning of the source and other users. You require ithers to prove their statements it is only fair for you to do the same.

http://www.seasite.niu.edu/crossroads/r ... ianity.htm[/color][/b][/color]

How does this relate to Sudan? You insist on bringing in other unrelated topics before the first topic is finished.

You asked about Philipines, and I provided to you, now since you see that Christianty is spread in Philipines by force, which goes against your views and idea, you made u-turn again:) nice move but you are traped in your own net

If you make this as a prayer, it means Jesus also prayed to his diciple, and the lawyers also make the Judge as their God, and pray to him, calling "ME Lord, ME Lord"
But muslims use (pbuh) with all the prophets, so means they worship all prophets?

You seem to be unable to see the difference between talking to living people and talking to dead revered figures.

I can see the difference and explained to you as well, but you dont want to understand and see the difference, till now dats why you could;nt bring any proof for any Muslim worshipping Muhammad (pbuh)
Further you didnt reply me, that do Muslims worship all other prophets as well?

bring some proper evidence of your claim.

I have and you have yet to disprove it.

hehee, Common Wyvern, till now you yet have to provide any proof fromIslamic authentic book (Quran)

[Wyvern]

You asked about Philipines, and I provided to you, now since you see that Christianty is spread in Philipines by force, which goes against your views and idea, you made u-turn again:) nice move but you are traped in your own net

Your lack of understanding of english is showing, show me where I asked about the Phillipines. Why can you not understand the conversation is about Sudan, if you want to talk about other off topic countries I suggest you make a new thread instead of constantly trying to derail this one.

I can see the difference and explained to you as well, but you dont want to understand and see the difference, till now dats why you could;nt bring any proof for any Muslim worshipping Muhammad (pbuh)
Further you didnt reply me, that do Muslims worship all other prophets as well?

The only thing I have seen from you is repeatedly trying to claim calling a judge by his honorific is the same as worshipping him. I have been the one telling you there is a difference you have been the one trying to say it's all the same. Lol, you say I can't bring any proof of muslims worshipping mohammed and then you go ahead and demonstrate my evidence for me.

hehee, Common Wyvern, till now you yet have to provide any proof fromIslamic authentic book (Quran)

Do you have problems with your memory? We have been over this a number of times already and yet here you are putting it forward yet again.

[TrueReligion]

You asked about Philipines, and I provided to you, now since you see that Christianty is spread in Philipines by force, which goes against your views and idea, you made u-turn again:) nice move but you are traped in your own net

Your lack of understanding of english is showing, show me where I asked about the Phillipines. Why can you not understand the conversation is about Sudan, if you want to talk about other off topic countries I suggest you make a new thread instead of constantly trying to derail this one.

Wyvern, nowhere does this topic also is related to Sudan, the question asked from you was very simple, that which arab country Muslim army went, and till now you fail to give answer, instead you just provide your comments, furthe I said that Christian armies went to Philipines and forcefully converted all into Christianity, you asked me claim, now after I provided you that evidence, you just ignored it, and changed again your statement that you never made such claim.

I can see the difference and explained to you as well, but you dont want to understand and see the difference, till now dats why you could;nt bring any proof for any Muslim worshipping Muhammad (pbuh)
Further you didnt reply me, that do Muslims worship all other prophets as well?

The only thing I have seen from you is repeatedly trying to claim calling a judge by his honorific is the same as worshipping him. I have been the one telling you there is a difference you have been the one trying to say it's all the same. Lol, you say I can't bring any proof of muslims worshipping mohammed and then you go ahead and demonstrate my evidence for me.

Its same Wyvern:) calling Judge as "ME-LORD" is worship as per your own formula about muslims.
Jesus worshipping his followers is also shown as per your own formula.
So as such, there is no difference,.

But what is obvious, that you failed again in giving answer, that do Muslims worship all the prophets?

hehee, Common Wyvern, till now you yet have to provide any proof fromIslamic authentic book (Quran)

Do you have problems with your memory? We have been over this a number of times already and yet here you are putting it forward yet again.

Because tillnow you have;nt provided any of the proof from any religious scripture of Muslims (e.g Quran), bring any evidence with proof, and we shall conclude this session. Failure to bring next time, will only show that you dont have proof of what you claim.

[Wyvern]

Wyvern, nowhere does this topic also is related to Sudan, the question asked from you was very simple, that which arab country Muslim army went, and till now you fail to give answer, instead you just provide your comments, furthe I said that Christian armies went to Philipines and forcefully converted all into Christianity, you asked me claim, now after I provided you that evidence, you just ignored it, and changed again your statement that you never made such claim.

I ignored it because it has nothing to do with Sudan, if you want to expand this conversation to encompass other nations then make a new thread for it. Why do you blame me for your inability to understand this is off topic and as such should be limited in scope in this thread. Do you not know how to make a new thread? I will be more than happy to discuss the formation of various religions with you

Its same Wyvern:) calling Judge as "ME-LORD" is worship as per your own formula about muslims.
Jesus worshipping his followers is also shown as per your own formula.
So as such, there is no difference,.

But what is obvious, that you failed again in giving answer, that do Muslims worship all the prophets?

Why is it I have to repeatedly repeat myself? Why is it that your argument suddenly gets turned and becomes my argument under your benevolent fingers.

Because tillnow you have;nt provided any of the proof from any religious scripture of Muslims (e.g Quran), bring any evidence with proof, and we shall conclude this session. Failure to bring next time, will only show that you dont have proof of what you claim.

And yet again I have to repeat myself. Do you not understand english or is it that you have little memory? The bible has nowhere in it Jesus telling his followers to worship him and yet christians do just that, according to you this is impossible since the bible doesn't tell anyone to do it.