Does death exist?

Coyotero · Post by **Coyotero** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:59 pm

Interesting stuff.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-la ... 84515.html

Scotracer · Post by **Scotracer** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:12 pm

I've been thinking about this sort of stuff a lot recently. After Bernee seeded my brain with the notion that time does not exist I've been thinking about it a lot and what I came up with was eerily similar to this. I'm glad I'm not the only one - crazy loves company

I fear however even if this were to be accurate the problem is our animal brains are instinctively set up to fear death, so even if our rational neocortex knew we'd be okay our amygdala would be going quite literally mental over the idea of death.

Coyotero · Post by **Coyotero** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:42 pm

Scotracer wrote:I've been thinking about this sort of stuff a lot recently. After Bernee seeded my brain with the notion that time does not exist I've been thinking about it a lot and what I came up with was eerily similar to this. I'm glad I'm not the only one - crazy loves company

I fear however even if this were to be accurate the problem is our animal brains are instinctively set up to fear death, so even if our rational neocortex knew we'd be okay our amygdala would be going quite literally mental over the idea of death.

That's the fun thing about quantum physics. All the rules go away. The more I read about quantum physics, and the more I read about metaphysics, the more I am convinced they are one and the same.

I am a skeptic, of sorts. I believe in things like gods and ghosts because I've seen a lot of wierd stuff in my time. I believe all of these things could be proven or figured out by science, it's just that our science isn't good enough yet (or we're doing something wrong.)

I once read an article in the Journal of Thelemic Studies- I'll see if I can find it again- Where some scientists basically found that while dreaming, an electric signal basically left the brain and would wander about outside the body, then returned upon waking. A similar phenomena occurred with people who were claiming to perform astral projection. Interesting stuff.

Miles · Post by **Miles** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:57 pm

Scotracer wrote:I fear however even if this were to be accurate the problem is our animal brains are instinctively set up to fear death,

You state this as if it's a fact. If so, just what is your evidence?

so even if our rational neocortex knew we'd be okay our amygdala would be going quite literally mental over the idea of death.

Again, what is your evidence?

T-mash · Post by **T-mash** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:35 pm

Scotracer wrote:I've been thinking about this sort of stuff a lot recently. After Bernee seeded my brain with the notion that time does not exist I've been thinking about it a lot and what I came up with was eerily similar to this. I'm glad I'm not the only one - crazy loves company

I fear however even if this were to be accurate the problem is our animal brains are instinctively set up to fear death, so even if our rational neocortex knew we'd be okay our amygdala would be going quite literally mental over the idea of death.

I do quite like the idea of biocentrism, because I used to be thinking a lot about Solipsism a while back. Of course the part about death existing is much older. My mind is all that I have to perceive the world around me. Once my mind stops working, the world stops existing for me. Death does not exist on a personal level. Of course it doesn't quite work the way the article suggest, as comfort, because while death does not exist it means the entire universe collapses for a specific person.

T-mash · Post by **T-mash** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:41 pm

Miles wrote:
Scotracer wrote:I fear however even if this were to be accurate the problem is our animal brains are instinctively set up to fear death,
You state this as if it's a fact. If so, just what is your evidence?

so even if our rational neocortex knew we'd be okay our amygdala would be going quite literally mental over the idea of death.
Again, what is your evidence?

I don't think animals fear death, they just are programmed for survival (else they would have been weeded out by natural selection already). I don't think an ant knows that you can squash them to death with your thumb, but it will still sure as hell try to avoid death. Humans however are self-conscious enough to observe death in other living beings and fully understand what death means. Knowing that one day you might be next is not instinctively set up in my eyes, it's rationally set up. of course grief is not only human, so you might argue more animals know what death is and fear death. Perhaps all do.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:57 am

T-mash wrote: I don't think animals fear death,

Humans fear death. Humans are animals (we are not plants). Therefore some animals fear death. Whether other animals fear death is open for debate, but being an animal does not prevent us from fearing death.

T-mash wrote: they just are programmed for survival (else they would have been weeded out by natural selection already).

And we are programmed for survival as well. The same evolutionary forces that programmed them have programmed us. Our fear of death has probably some kind of selective advantage for us. Why not for other intelligent species as well? I would not rule it out without strong evidence.

T-mash wrote: Humans however are self-conscious enough to observe death in other living beings and fully understand what death means.

We do not really know, or we pretend we don't know what death means.

Scotracer · Post by **Scotracer** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:07 pm

Miles wrote:
Scotracer wrote:I fear however even if this were to be accurate the problem is our animal brains are instinctively set up to fear death,
You state this as if it's a fact. If so, just what is your evidence?

It comes from our instinctive want to survive. What else would force the Gazelle to run for all it's life from the Cheetah? Terror! Fearing death is an evolutionary advantage...well, as long as you can't think about your own death in the future (as far as we can tell only Humans are able to do that - maybe some of the other apes).

Miles wrote:
so even if our rational neocortex knew we'd be okay our amygdala would be going quite literally mental over the idea of death.
Again, what is your evidence?

The fear of death can be overpowering - it can lead people into severe depression, anxiety and other problems. Also, our primitive brain has veto power over our neocortex.

T-mash · Post by **T-mash** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:16 pm

McCulloch wrote: Humans fear death. Humans are animals (we are not plants). Therefore some animals fear death. Whether other animals fear death is open for debate, but being an animal does not prevent us from fearing death.

Yes great job on nit-picking

Animals do not fear death as far as we know. Humans have the capability to transcend a more basic level of consciousness in order to logically make conclusions. Humans understand death and are capable of fearing their own. Animals in general do not. This one exception does not mean you can just say that animals fear death. Phones are used for calling people. Just because you have a phone that you only use for making pictures, doesn't mean the statement that phones are used for calling people is incorrect.

McCulloch wrote: And we are programmed for survival as well. The same evolutionary forces that programmed them have programmed us. Our fear of death has probably some kind of selective advantage for us.

Good job. That was exactly what I said. All animals have this basic survival program because without it it wouldn't even be possible to survive natural selection. Our fear of death is a result of our intelligence. Why are you trying to make it seem like I am stating the opposite?

McCulloch wrote: Why not for other intelligent species as well? I would not rule it out without strong evidence.

Like I said: of course grief is not only human, so you might argue more animals know what death is and fear death. Perhaps all do.. I don't really get why you quote me where I say that maybe all animals fear death and then ask me why I claim no other animals fear it :s

McCulloch wrote: We do not really know, or we pretend we don't know what death means.

What do you mean by that? I'm not aware of anyone who sees death as anything but the end of your existence in your present form? I'm not aware of anyone shrugging and say "No clue what death is".

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:14 pm

McCulloch wrote: Humans fear death. Humans are animals (we are not plants). Therefore some animals fear death. Whether other animals fear death is open for debate, but being an animal does not prevent us from fearing death.

T-mash wrote: Yes great job on nit-picking

Sometimes you just gotta go with your strength.

T-mash wrote: Animals do not fear death as far as we know.

Do you have that on any authority? Humans cannot know directly if non-human animals fear death since they do not have the language to express that fear. However, they do act at times as if they have that fear.

T-mash wrote: Humans have the capability to transcend a more basic level of consciousness in order to logically make conclusions. Humans understand death and are capable of fearing their own. Animals in general do not. This one exception does not mean you can just say that animals fear death. Phones are used for calling people. Just because you have a phone that you only use for making pictures, doesn't mean the statement that phones are used for calling people is incorrect.

Of course humans with our larger brains, language and collective intelligence, have a deeper understanding of life, death and the universe than any animal without those traits. I just feel that it is premature to categorically state that non-human animals have no fear of death.

McCulloch wrote: And we are programmed for survival as well. The same evolutionary forces that programmed them have programmed us. Our fear of death has probably some kind of selective advantage for us.

T-mash wrote: Good job. That was exactly what I said. All animals have this basic survival program because without it it wouldn't even be possible to survive natural selection. Our fear of death is a result of our intelligence. Why are you trying to make it seem like I am stating the opposite?

I have no doubt that humans fear death. However, I am less sure that it is as a result of out intelligence. It could be far more primitive than that. Could it not be that non-human animals facing the same selective pressures as we face would not develop a similar fear of death? Why not?

McCulloch wrote: We do not really know, or we pretend we don't know what death means.

T-mash wrote: What do you mean by that? I'm not aware of anyone who sees death as anything but the end of your existence in your present form? I'm not aware of anyone shrugging and say "No clue what death is".

Nice weasel words. Death is the irrevocable cessation of life. Claiming that it is the end of your existence in your present form implies that there is some reason to believe that there is a possibility of your continuation after death in some other form. Religion which seems to be ubiquitous, is humans' attempts to deny what we know or should know about death.