The armed Christian

[Pastor4Jesus]

DISCLAIMER; THIS THREAD ADDRESSES THE HIGHLY RADICALIZED AND MILITRIZED ISLAMIC TERRORIST. I DENOUNCE ALL TERRORIST ACTIVITIES, INCLUDING THOSE THAT CLAIM TO BE CHRISTIAN. I HAVE NO BIAS AGAINST ANY RELIGION OR ATHEIST BELIEFS. I PERSONALLY LOVE MY PEACEFUL MUSLIM BROTHERS AND SISTERS, AND PRAY THAT THEY PRACTICE THE RELIGION IN A NORMAL NON-RADICALIZED AND REJECT THE RADICAL FALSE PROPHETS.



I think all Christians should be armed where legal and if its not legal those Christians should diligently work to change policy to make it legal. I would suggest that all Christians have several weapons which would include a battle rifle and a pistol then a back up of each with at least a thousand rounds of ammo for each. Also provisions should be stored for a month or more.

Why do I say this? Self defense. There is a radical element in Islam that is intent of destroying the United States, Israel, and what she stands for (the perceived Christian West and values). Of course I am speaking of the highly radicalized/Militized Muslim element. With lets talk about it Obama in office I predict a major terrorist attack on the USA or the west before he leaves office.

As the Islamic terrorists demonstrated they would use any weapon from a box cutter to a AK-47 to explosives to airliners filled with fuel to kill citizens of the west. Their MO in areas where they have free reign is to support coups and takeovers. Considering those facts, I don't think its too conspiracy theorist extreme to envision well funded terrorists attempting to take over a small town or part of a city. Maybe if the terrorists know that a particular group of citizens may be heavily armed, maybe they will pick on someone else. Going armed would send a message to radical Islam and more importantly if all Christians would go armed it would serve a practical purpose if terrorists decide to make an example out of your town.



P4JC

[Pastor4Jesus]

I feel its my right to own guns.

And you have the right to express your opinion.

I have a right to personal liberty too, any law that too infringes on that law will be broken.

What is is that Paul taught about obeying civil governments? Remember that he would have being referring to the Roman tyranny. Do you agree or disagree with him?

Jesus was teaching one day and he was addressing a crowd of people. He announced this to the crowd and his disciples. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach (Matt. 23:1-3)

This one of many such passages. Jesus was saying that the politicians were corrupt and deceptive. I think he would advise us to obey the law lest we land in jail, but not because its the right thing to do. When he said (in Matt 21) ; They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. He meant if you owe the government pay them. However I think the income tax is unconstitutional along with other fees and such.

You mentioned Paul, and yo were correct in that he did lay down a precept for every man e.g. ( Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities). That's pretty clear. However there are exceptions to the precept Paul has claimed. There are times when we must "obey God, rather than men" (e.g. Daniel 3, 6; Acts 4:19-20; 5:27-32).

I would suggest to you that while the Christian may not, in good conscience before God, obey the government in every instance, true submission to the government should never be ignored. Usually, submission is demonstrated by our obedience. But when one cannot obey, they can still demonstrate a submissive spirit. (My pride gets in the way on that, but I am a work in progress!)

This submissive spirit should never be set aside when it comes to those in authority over us. It empowered us actually. I hope I haven't confused the issue of Paul completely, its late and I am taking shortcuts so if you have issues with this or would like me to clarify I would be happy to in the morrow.

P4JC

[McCulloch]

Jesus was teaching one day and he was addressing a crowd of people. He announced this to the crowd and his disciples. "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach" (Matt. 23:1-3)

This one of many such passages. Jesus was saying that the politicians were corrupt and deceptive.

That is an interesting spin on that passage. Another would be that Jesus is teaching that his disciples must follow the teachings of the Pharisees because their teachings are, in fact, the teachings of Almighty God as revealed to Moses. However, he adds, do not follow their example because they are hypocrites, not practicing what they preach. This passage, in my view, has nothing to do with civil authority and everything to do with obedience to God.

I think he would advise us to obey the law lest we land in jail, but not because its the right thing to do.

That is your opinion. Do you have anything that substantiates it?

When he said (in Matt 21) ; They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. He meant if you owe the government pay them.

Look at the context (BTW Mat 22). Jesus said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" Take a good look at your own money. Who issued it?

However I think the income tax is unconstitutional along with other fees and such.

You have the right to express your opinion on that matter. Do any experts in constitutional law agree with you? Have the courts (who's job it is to interpret the constitution) ever interpreted it thus?

You mentioned Paul, and you were correct in that he did lay down a precept for every man e.g. ( Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities). That's pretty clear. However there are exceptions to the precept Paul has claimed. There are times when we must "obey God, rather than men" (e.g. Daniel 3, 6; Acts 4:19-20; 5:27-32).

Finally, we agree.

I would suggest to you that while the Christian may not, in good conscience before God, obey the government in every instance, true submission to the government should never be ignored.

Certainly, when the government asks you to do something contrary to what you believe to be the command of God, you are obliged to obey God rather than man. Now, where is it in the Bible that God expresses the instructions for Jesus' disciples to exercise violent self-defense and to stockpile weapons of mass destruction?

[T-mash]

So if I get this straight.. you want every "Christian" to be armed against Muslims? You think you will ever encounter any Muslim terrorist in your life? One religious group demanding guns to "protect" themselves from other religious people with guns and people ask me why theism is bad... it boggles the mind.

My honest opinion is.. Muslims don't scare me. People that love firing at stuff and taking pride in giving weapons to little kids in the name of their religion do. You carrying a handgun isn't going to stop terrorism.

[Pastor4Jesus]

Certainly, when the government asks you to do something contrary to what you believe to be the command of God, you are obliged to obey God rather than man. Now, where is it in the Bible that God expresses the instructions for Jesus' disciples to exercise violent self-defense and to stockpile weapons of mass destruction?

With all due respect, you read a bit too much into what I actually say Mr McCulloch. God tells me to be prepared. If the person trying to kill me has cannon I want cannon. I don't need a bible to know God wants me to defend myself with whatever means I have.

Of course (for the second time) I did say something like that happening (needing serious weapons like cannon etc) was about as likely as winning the lottery. Additionally when I was musing about cannon explosives and other goodies (I would love to have a Abrams tank too, or just give me one of everything in our arsenal! Collectors are like that....* drool* ), the heavy stuff was a separate argument. I said that most of it is legal with the proper licenses. Not some tanks etc but the unclassified stuff is.

Budda budda bye!

P4JC

In my new issue of shot gun news there is a 20mm cannon swiss made tank killer with 25 rounds of ammo for I think it was 19,500 bucks.....too much money!

[Pastor4Jesus]

Jesus was teaching one day and he was addressing a crowd of people. He announced this to the crowd and his disciples. "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach" (Matt. 23:1-3)

This one of many such passages. Jesus was saying that the politicians were corrupt and deceptive.

That is an interesting spin on that passage. Another would be that Jesus is teaching that his disciples must follow the teachings of the Pharisees because their teachings are, in fact, the teachings of Almighty God as revealed to Moses. However, he adds, do not follow their example because they are hypocrites, not practicing what they preach. This passage, in my view, has nothing to do with civil authority and everything to do with obedience to God.

We can agree to disagree.

That is your opinion. Do you have anything that substantiates it?

Just the words themselves. I would say that Jesus was a rebel in many ways. There is the theory that we do supposed to be submissive to government only because government is allowed by God to exist and thrive. However I have issues (I am undecided) with that because it suggests that if government is corrupt that God will bring his wrath upon them in a Pat Roberson kind of way. That way of thinking goes against my somewhat deistic paradigm. To be honest with you this is an area ow study that doesn't interest me and therefore I am not qualified to discuss it in much detail except to say what I believe, I do so on faith with little scriptural back up.

You have the right to express your opinion on that matter. Do any experts in constitutional law agree with you? Have the courts (who's job it is to interpret the constitution) ever interpreted it thus?
.

No, but I am exceedingly radical on this. I think that the federal government isn't 'valid' and only recognize it as limited in its authority and laws. I only obey certian laws because of fear of imprisonment, and have better sense that to fight city hall. I would rather do as little as possible, pay as little taxes as possible, use as little federal stuff as possible. I love my country but not most of the leaders and do what I can to change the system legally. What I cant change I try to ignore and divest myself from. I don't fear the government except for the occasional DEA goons and other authority types kicking down the wrong door and blowing away granny. I can put myself out of that kind of harms way by using a little peaceful common sense. However I do like to be prepared just for the comfort of knowing that I am ready for anything that comes down the pike whether it be a power outage or worse.

P4JC

[Pastor4Jesus]

So if I get this straight.. you want every "Christian" to be armed against Muslims? You think you will ever encounter any Muslim terrorist in your life? One religious group demanding guns to "protect" themselves from other religious people with guns and people ask me why theism is bad... it boggles the mind.

I think everyone has a responsibility to be armed especially targeted groups. I see only benefits to the armed christian (see excerpt below)

My honest opinion is.. Muslims don't scare me. People that love firing at stuff and taking pride in giving weapons to little kids in the name of their religion do. You carrying a handgun isn't going to stop terrorism.

My heart doc is a devout PEACEFUL ORDINARY NON RADICAL Muslim I love her. So I don't fear PEACEFUL ORDINARY NON RADICAL Muslims either. Haven't I said that about a zilion times? Nevertheless, despite that (deceptive) remark, you have a right to your opinion. I would guess if you were in the twin towers of had a piece or shrapnel or a bullet in you, or a family member you may not trust some of the radical types...nah strike that, you would probably be saying the same thing. BTW I ain't concerned with stopping terrorism but I am concerned with stopping a terrorist and watching those that are already here (see excepts below).

P4JC

Ten Percent of Mosques in U.S. Preaching Extremism
The FBI believes that 10 percent of mosques in the U.S. are preaching extremism....

Sheikh Mubarak Gilani Forms Terrorist Compounds Inside United States

Somali-Canadians Now Joining Jihad in Native Land Al-Shabaab TB Five Somalis living in Canada disappeared earlier this month. Authorities are investigating whether they have joined the ranks of the Al-Shabaab terrorist group.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Excerpts ; Through these two groups, Sheikh Gilani began purchasing property in mostly rural, wooded and mountainous communities in America. According to a study funded by the Department of Justice, al-Fuqra has nearly two-dozen terrorist compounds inside the United States.

Sheikh Gilani, himself, claims to have between 10,000 and 15,000 followers in America with a presence in 22 states.One of those compounds was called Trout Creek Pass and was located near Buena Vista, Colorado. In 1989, Colorado police raided a storage locker rented by the disciples of Sheikh Gilani's. What they found was shocking.

Here is a partial list of the items:

Ten handguns and silencers

40 pounds of explosives

Target-practice silhouettes pierced with bullet holes

3 large pipe bombs, fused and ready to explode

A manual on "Guerilla Warfare"

AK 47s

6,000 rounds of ammo....

Bomb-making instructions

Blank birth certificates and Social Security cards...


Nothing to fear there, of course if it were Christians OMG!

[McCulloch]

However I think the income tax is unconstitutional along with other fees and such.

You have the right to express your opinion on that matter. Do any experts in constitutional law agree with you? Have the courts (who's job it is to interpret the constitution) ever interpreted it thus?

No, but I am exceedingly radical on this. I think that the federal government isn't 'valid' and only recognize it as limited in its authority and laws.

OK, I get the message. Apparently, P4JC believes that he is qualified to his own radical interpretation of the constitution, in spite of the fact that every branch, agency and department of the God ordained government differs and all qualified experts in the field of constitutional law differs. I really don't know how to debate with someone who exhibits such a reluctance to the possibility of himself being in the wrong.

[JoeyKnothead]

[Pastor4Jesus]

OK, I get the message. Apparently, P4JC believes that he is qualified to his own radical interpretation of the constitution, in spite of the fact that every branch, agency and department of the God ordained government differs and all qualified experts in the field of constitutional law differs. I really don't know how to debate with someone who exhibits such a reluctance to the possibility of himself being in the wrong.

I think you are mistaken. Its my opinion that I have the right to ignore some laws. I don't recognize the authority that makes some law, being right or wrong in the eyes of the authorities who write and keep the law isn't important to me. What is jail time for disobeying a law vs going against Gods law and his punishment?

Take abortion as an example. Abortion is wrong even though the law tells us its legal to kill the unborn. I say its against natural law (murder really) to take That is natural law vs positive law. In most cases its not as black and white as that. However, if you think that Jesus would approve of killing the unborn because the mom was too lazy to use birth control (or the dad), or other factors such as just not wanting the kid, well we do not have anything to talk about.

P4JC

[Pastor4Jesus]

I have faith that the pope has the common sense to know that there are anti religion nut cases out there and would choose to ride in a monstrosity like the popemobile ! Faith will not stop bullets. Or the some rules of law, ask Jesus he knows!
P4JC