Christianity and Abortion

[Kenyon]

As I understand it, christian doctrine provides for exactly two ways to get into heaven: making the choice to accept Jesus as your savior, or dying young enough not be held accountable for this choice.

If that's true, all aborted babies would go to heaven. Alternatively, if none of the babies were aborted, some would grow up to accept Jesus as their savior, and some would not. Thus, some would go to heaven, and some would go to hell.

If the overarching goal of Christianity is to get as many souls into heaven as possible, it would seem that abortion is actually aligned with that goal.

[cholland]

I think it's exactly the point. If you cannot explain why you don't prefer innocent death to a lifetime risking loss of heavenly reward you can't really refute the OP's last statement. Why is it that christianity is all upset over abortions? Why is subjecting an innocent soul to life more preferable than a direct path to heaven?

First, because they may be innocent, but they are not pure. Second, you can't prove to me that the Bible teaches it's a direct path for every baby.

Christianity is upset because abortion is murder. It's equatable to the holocaust. Though the Nazis felt justified in murdering Jews for whatever reason didn't make it ok. Therefore, I'd like to think I would have taken a stand against the Nazis if I were a German and gone to the death to save the Jews.

[realthinker]

I think it's exactly the point. If you cannot explain why you don't prefer innocent death to a lifetime risking loss of heavenly reward you can't really refute the OP's last statement. Why is it that christianity is all upset over abortions? Why is subjecting an innocent soul to life more preferable than a direct path to heaven?

First, because they may be innocent, but they are not pure. Second, you can't prove to me that the Bible teaches it's a direct path for every baby.

I don't need to prove it. You said you believe it.

NOTICE: I agree with the OP that all children go to heaven since they have no knowledge of their sin.

Why would I need to prove to you what you already believe?

Christianity is upset because abortion is murder. It's equatable to the holocaust. Though the Nazis felt justified in murdering Jews for whatever reason didn't make it ok. Therefore, I'd like to think I would have taken a stand against the Nazis if I were a German and gone to the death to save the Jews.

Murder's consequence is for the murderer, not the victim. If the victim dies in a state of complete grace and innocence, where's the crime? Isn't the victim better off than dying of natural causes after a long life of sin? Please explain why that's not the case?

[Kenyon]

As I understand it, christian doctrine provides for exactly two ways to get into heaven: making the choice to accept Jesus as your savior, or dying young enough not be held accountable for this choice.

If that's true, all aborted babies would go to heaven. Alternatively, if none of the babies were aborted, some would grow up to accept Jesus as their savior, and some would not. Thus, some would go to heaven, and some would go to hell.

If the overarching goal of Christianity is to get as many souls into heaven as possible, it would seem that abortion is actually aligned with that goal.

Jesus as the gate to the kingdom is doctrine, the age of accountability is not. There is no Biblical support to say that all children who die young go to heaven. There are examples of this such as David's son and Job alludes at it, but no Scripture to be dogmatic about all children.

Your statement implicitly acknowledges the possibility that some children who die young may in fact go to hell. How could this possibly be consistent with an infinitely fair and just God?

Even if there is a case that all children go to Heaven, I think we can agree that the end does not justify the means.

I wasn't arguing that the end (heaven) justifies the means (abortion). I was arguing that Christian doctrine, taken to a logical end, might actually justify abortion, contrary to many (if not most) Christians' views on abortion.

[cholland]

Your statement implicitly acknowledges the possibility that some children who die young may in fact go to hell. How could this possibly be consistent with an infinitely fair and just God?

I don't see it stated that God is fair. He is just and so I leave that up to him. Again, I believe that all children go to heaven, but we cannot be dogmatic about it since Scripture is silent.

I wasn't arguing that the end (heaven) justifies the means (abortion). I was arguing that Christian doctrine, taken to a logical end, might actually justify abortion, contrary to many (if not most) Christians' views on abortion.

Please reference the doctrine you are talking about. Because the doctrine of original sin would place all children in hell taken to a logical end.

[East of Eden]

Moreover, no matter how beautiful and pleasant Heaven is, there are certain activities and opportunities that can be enjoyed only on earth. Jesus Himself gave an example of one such activity: Marriage (Mt. 22:30).

Agreed.

Scientific pursuits are yet another.

Why?

I absolutely love Egyptology, for example, but know that I must leave it on earth when my time comes.

Again, why? The Bible says "The nations will bring their glory..." There may very well be different earthly cultures in heaven and the new earth.

[East of Eden]

As I understand it, christian doctrine provides for exactly two ways to get into heaven: making the choice to accept Jesus as your savior, or dying young enough not be held accountable for this choice.

If that's true, all aborted babies would go to heaven. Alternatively, if none of the babies were aborted, some would grow up to accept Jesus as their savior, and some would not. Thus, some would go to heaven, and some would go to hell.

If the overarching goal of Christianity is to get as many souls into heaven as possible, it would seem that abortion is actually aligned with that goal.

One 'goal' of Christianity is to follow God's commandments, one of which is 'Thou shalt not murder.' Using my fallen and finite human reasoning it might make sense to me to finish off a suffering elderly Christian, but I don't have that option.

[Goat]

I think it's exactly the point. If you cannot explain why you don't prefer innocent death to a lifetime risking loss of heavenly reward you can't really refute the OP's last statement. Why is it that christianity is all upset over abortions? Why is subjecting an innocent soul to life more preferable than a direct path to heaven?

First, because they may be innocent, but they are not pure. Second, you can't prove to me that the Bible teaches it's a direct path for every baby.

Christianity is upset because abortion is murder. It's equatable to the holocaust. Though the Nazis felt justified in murdering Jews for whatever reason didn't make it ok. Therefore, I'd like to think I would have taken a stand against the Nazis if I were a German and gone to the death to save the Jews.

It seems to me this is the logical fallacy known as a 'weak analogy'. There is a big difference between what a woman chooses for herself, and what people decide for the woman. Now, if it was a policy such as they had in China , where they were very strongly enforcing the 'one child per family' rule for a while by forcing abortions, I would agree. However, what a specific woman deciedes for her own body is a totally different matter.

Second of all, if abortion was 'murder' according to the bible, then there wouldn't be a procedure outlined to induce miscarriages in the bible.

Declaring abortion to be murder is might be "Christian" but it's non-biblical. As a matter of fact, there are many passages that show while a fetus is valuable, it isn't nearly as valuable as a person's life. Indeed, in the Jewish faith, the health and well being of the woman is much higher than the fetus.. and there are times that would be considered that an abortion is almost mandatory (if the life of the woman is at stake).

To make this emotional appeal that abortion is equivalent to the holocaust is polemic, and insulting to the people's who were effected by the holocaust the most.

[cholland]

It seems to me this is the logical fallacy known as a 'weak analogy'. There is a big difference between what a woman chooses for herself, and what people decide for the woman. Now, if it was a policy such as they had in China , where they were very strongly enforcing the 'one child per family' rule for a while by forcing abortions, I would agree. However, what a specific woman deciedes for her own body is a totally different matter.

Second of all, if abortion was 'murder' according to the bible, then there wouldn't be a procedure outlined to induce miscarriages in the bible.

Declaring abortion to be murder is might be "Christian" but it's non-biblical. As a matter of fact, there are many passages that show while a fetus is valuable, it isn't nearly as valuable as a person's life. Indeed, in the Jewish faith, the health and well being of the woman is much higher than the fetus.. and there are times that would be considered that an abortion is almost mandatory (if the life of the woman is at stake).

To make this emotional appeal that abortion is equivalent to the holocaust is polemic, and insulting to the people's who were effected by the holocaust the most.

I'm sorry if I was insulting. What did I say?

I see an innocent life being subjected against its will through murder. The woman is choosing for the baby whether it wants it to live or not. If that wasn't what happened during the Holocaust, I've missed something in history. I think we can agree that we would have been fully justified in outlawing the Nazis from killing Jews.

[Goat]

It seems to me this is the logical fallacy known as a 'weak analogy'. There is a big difference between what a woman chooses for herself, and what people decide for the woman. Now, if it was a policy such as they had in China , where they were very strongly enforcing the 'one child per family' rule for a while by forcing abortions, I would agree. However, what a specific woman deciedes for her own body is a totally different matter.

Second of all, if abortion was 'murder' according to the bible, then there wouldn't be a procedure outlined to induce miscarriages in the bible.

Declaring abortion to be murder is might be "Christian" but it's non-biblical. As a matter of fact, there are many passages that show while a fetus is valuable, it isn't nearly as valuable as a person's life. Indeed, in the Jewish faith, the health and well being of the woman is much higher than the fetus.. and there are times that would be considered that an abortion is almost mandatory (if the life of the woman is at stake).

To make this emotional appeal that abortion is equivalent to the holocaust is polemic, and insulting to the people's who were effected by the holocaust the most.

I'm sorry if I was insulting. What did I say?

I see an innocent life being subjected against its will through murder. The woman is choosing for the baby whether it wants it to live or not. If that wasn't what happened during the Holocaust, I've missed something in history. I think we can agree that we would have been fully justified in outlawing the Nazis from killing Jews.

Shrug.. Comparing a woman's choice with her own body to the Holocaust IS insulting. If you can't see it, there is no discussion with you. There is no comparison.

[East of Eden]

Shrug.. Comparing a woman's choice with her own body to the Holocaust IS insulting.

An unborn baby is not part of a woman's body. It has a different genetic code and can have a different gender and blood type. It can also survive the death of the mother.