What Judaism IS

[cnorman18]

And here's another post on the nature of Judaism, from more than a year ago. I seem to keep having to explain these things to our newer members, and I hope these posts will make some of that unnecessary.

To repeat what is said below, the intention here is not to debate whether these ideas are correct, but only to describe and explain what they ARE.

-----

In the spirit of providing information, I thought I would here attempt to explain, as I understand them, some of the basic beliefs of Judaism that distinguish it from other faiths. My intention is not to provoke argument or debate, but to provide information only.

Nothing here should be construed as an effort to "win" others to my faith or convince them of its truth. Jews don't go there, and I most certainly don't either. JEWS DO NOT PROSELYTIZE, and have not done so since approximately the time of the fall of Rome.

I would emphasize most strongly here, then, that nothing I say should be taken as advocating that anyone take up Judaism or even agree with it or any aspect of it. I am here attempting to describe Judaism in positive terms; no more. There is no further significance to my words; no "hidden messages", nor any intent to disparage anyone who does not share, or might even be hostile to, any belief or practice that I describe here. I do not see how I can be any clearer than that.

To begin, then: It is tempting to begin and end the matter with the words of the great first-century sage Hillel, who was famously asked to explain the whole of Judaism while standing on one foot. Though other authorities had thrown the questioner out on his ear after hearing such an inquiry, Hillel lifted his foot and said: "That which is hurtful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary. Now go and study."

Tempting, as I said, but in the present context a bit fatuous. Such a principle is shared by every religion of which I have ever heard, and so hardly distinguishes Judaism from any of them.

Still, it ought to be noted that that IS the supreme ethic of Judaism--and in Judaism, ethics are more important than "doctrine". To Jews, no "doctrine", no belief, no principle, no ritual practice, no custom, and no law is ever to be placed above the worth and welfare of the individual human being. It would be well to bear that in mind as one reads what follows.

It would be difficult, nay, impossible in a single post to adequately even summarize the content of the Jewish religion, let alone the distinctive Jewish culture that is so interwoven with it; but perhaps a synopsis of why that is so, with some appended remarks, will serve for the moment. I shall borrow and edit the following few paragraphs from Rabbi Milton Steinberg's fine book, Basic Judaism--one of the best short works available on the subject today. For those who wish to understand or learn more about our faith, it is highly recommended. I shall not always use quotes, because I am largely paraphrasing and restating the rabbi's thoughts in my own words. Quoted material is given verbatim.

The Jewish religion is made up of seven "strands":
(1) A body of teachings about God, the Universe, and human beings;
(2) A system of moral principles for the individual and society;
(3) A collection of rites, customs, and ceremonies;
(4) A body of law;
(5) A sacred literature;
(6) Institutions for the preservation and expression of the above; and
(7) The Jewish people.

I would add

(8) The dimension of time, in that ALL of the above have been revised and adapted to changing circumstances and perceptions over the approximately 4,000 years of Jewish history. I am specifically including the sacred books; responsa, Midrashim, teaching tales and commentary are still being added to the corpus, and even our understanding of the Torah itself has changed, and that even in recent years.

Now it would seem to be possible to separate these threads--to discuss the teachings about God and the Universe separately from the ethic, or the teachings and ethics apart from the books, or any of those apart from the people; but such separation is, in practical terms, impossible. "First, because, where the cords are actually distinct, they have knotted so tightly under the wear and tear of centuries that no amount of picking can pull them apart."

And second, because the unity of Judaism is more than that of a knot. Most of these seemingly distinct threads are in reality different organs of the same creature, animated by a common spirit, reaching into and penetrating one another, no more to be isolated than the parts of a body. "For--and this is the crux of the matter--Judaism is an organism; the fabric of its weaving is alive."

This may sound like mere poetry or a facile metaphor. Stay tuned. It is literally true.

(Here ends my borrowing of material from the good rabbi. The rest of what follows is my own, and he ought not be blamed for it.)

An example of the futility of any attempt to separate the strands:

#1, the teachings about God, the Universe, and humans, are probably of the most interest in the present discussion. However, they do not stand alone. They cannot be expressed without reference to the sacred books (5), especially the Torah; and even there, they are virtually never stated directly. They must be inferred from those documents by the Jewish people (7), who collectively determine their meaning in and through various institutions of learning and study (6), express and symbolize them in liturgy and ritual (3), and revise them over time (8) in relation to the moral code (2) and the laws (4) derived from it. All these are a single entity.

If these relationships, and this structure, seem overly complicated, it might be well to remember that this "system", so to speak, was not conceived and designed by any human agency--no man or committee ever thought this up or drew a master diagram or flowchart that spelled out these related areas and their interaction. Before you assume that I am speaking of God, I will say that He didn't do it, either.

Judaism grew and developed on its own over the centuries; rather like a living thing, as Rabbi Steinberg indicated. It has adapted and changed according to its environment and nurture, and grown more complex and varied in its parts. Like a living tree, it remains flexible in the wind, and, also like a tree, that flexibility has built-in limits. Too, parts of it occasionally die or are destroyed, but the whole continues to live and grow.

And, though it is a complicated and ever-changing organism, it remains recognizable and essentially a simple thing: a tree. Judaism. The same as it was and will be, ever changing and somehow always the same. (It is no accident that the Torah, and the Jewish faith itself, is often called the Etz Chayim--the Tree of Life.)

Your own appearance and circumstances have changed over the years, and will continue to do so; yet you remain you, and those who know you still know who you are, and love you--or hate you--just the same.

Very well, then; all these "strands" are inextricably intertwined. Beliefs, ethics, laws, ritual, books, institutions, and the people; all one, living organism, ever changing yet ever the same, yada yada yada.

What is there that does NOT change? What makes Judaism, Judaism? What teachings or principles or whatever distinguish it from all other faiths?

Here we go. I shall now break all the rules and ignore all the principles I just laid down as immutable and impossible to ignore, and tell you what Jews believe. Here goes...

First, Jews believe in God.

(Duh.)

We believe that God is One.

Now, that is a bit more than just "one God." it means that God is absolutely unique, impossible to compare to any other force or being. He is no Grandfather in the Sky with an avuncular smile and a long white beard; such a conception is blasphemous. He is without body or form, incorporeal, and unaffected by any force or power; He is other than any part or any attribute of the Universe which we inhabit, and which He made. He shares His power and essence with no one and nothing; He is indivisible, eternally One.

He is the Ein Sof, the Totally Other, the Unknowable. No man can understand or judge Him, nor begin to apprehend His nature. Whatever we may conceive Him to be, He is beyond it. As Arthur C. Clarke once said of the Universe, He is not only stranger than we think, He is stranger than we CAN think. Anyone who claims to "know God," or claims to speak for Him, is ipso facto either a fraud or insane.

(The quite reasonable objection that the Biblical prophets did just that may be answered by merely reading their books. Every one of them--every single one--was absolutely compelled to do what he did and say what he said, very much against his will. Moses himself protested that he was incapable and unworthy to the point that God grew angry with him. Jonah tried to get out of Dodge by taking ship for parts unknown, and we all know what happened after that. The attitude of every one of them was, "Why ME? I don't want to DO this!" The pattern is consistent--and NONE of them claimed to be holy themselves, or to be perfect role models, or demanded money--or appeared on TV in a $4,000 suit with blowdried hair.)

God is Sovereign. That means He is beyond our manipulation. When He spoke to Moses from the Burning Bush, He gave his Name as Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh, usually translated as "I am that I am"--but the Hebrew is in a kind of "eternal tense". The real meaning is closer to, "I was What I was, I am What I am, and I will be What I will be." Clear implication: You cannot change Me or determine what I will do. (It was commonly believed in the ancient world that if you knew the true name of a thing, you could control it; God was making it quite clear that that notion did not apply to Him.)

TV evangelists who claim to be able to deliver miracles on demand, "faith healers," and those who assure you that if you will only send them money, pray their specified prayers, and/or follow their program of guaranteed spiritual enlightenment, that God will bless you, heal you, or make you rich are engaging in blasphemy and arrogance of the highest order. They are essentially claiming to be able to give orders to God Himself.

Speaking for myself, I would be reluctant to give orders to a child that was not my own. One shudders

Jews further believe that God--this sovereign, eternal, omnipotent and unknowable God--spoke to us.

And that's not outrageous enough; He didn't just speak to us through some individual holy man, through Abraham or Moses or whoever. That could be doubted, and rightly so; holy men who spoke for God, or claimed to, were ten cents a hundred in the ancient world, just like today. No, that wasn't certain enough, not striking enough, too likely to be shrugged off or forgotten.

God spoke to us all, all at once, amid smoke and fire and the deafening blare of ram's horns, from a mountaintop around which we had all gathered to listen. And we all heard Him, each in his own tongue, all at once, and His voice was far beyond thunder. We fell on our faces and begged Him to stop before we died from hearing Him speak to us directly, and pleaded with Him to speak to us only through Moses.

(Some may object to my use of the word "we," since I obviously wasn't there--and especially since I am a convert and was not born Jewish. Suffice it to say that the Torah itself states that we were ALL, in some sense, there. The truth of that symbolic statement might become clear in what follows.)

Let's stop and clarify a few points. First, it is not important, and never was, whether or not this tale is literally true in an objective, historical sense. Most liberal Jews today don't believe that it is, but we tell the story anyway; as an aid to memory and a way to fix the principle in one's mind, it's a pretty hard story to beat. Whether God gave us His Laws by burning letters into slabs of red granite right in front of Charlton Heston's face, or through the collective, cumulative wisdom of the best and wisest of our people--who began the process by cribbing from the laws of Hammurabi and then slowly refined and humanized them over a span of centuries--does not matter. The Laws, and the principles behind them, stand on their own.

From the very beginning, the laws and practices of Judaism have been judged, altered, adapted and modified by human beings, explicitly independently of any Supreme Being. God's opinion no longer matters, and--according to Jewish tradition--has not mattered since Sinai.

Do you doubt this? Can you believe that our religion does NOT invoke the authority of the Almighty when discussing any question of ethics, "doctrine", ritual, or anything else, but that all such matters are ONLY decided by the logical arguments of humans, acknowledged by the whole community to be good and wise?

It is true beyond question.

One of the most famous stories in the literature is that of an argument among the sages of old. The subject does not matter; it concerned a dispute over the dietary laws, and a minor dispute at that.

As the story goes, the council had agreed on a conclusion--but one man, a particularly wise and pious sage, Rabbi Eliezer, disagreed. He attempted to change the council's decision by producing various miracles; "If I am right, let that tree move from its place to another a hundred cubits away"--and so it did.

(For those not paying attention, this is a teaching story, a parable. Its historicity is not asserted and is a trivial point. Observe the principle taught.)

Even after several such displays, each more astonishing than the last, the council refused to budge. Finally, Rabbi Eliezer called upon God Himself to confirm his judgment--and God did just that. A Voice from the sky proclaimed the rabbi's decision to be the correct one.

The leader of the council then stood and REBUKED GOD, with the remarkable words, "The Torah is not in Heaven!" - and the decision of the council stood.

The principle is simple and important: Now that God has entrusted His laws and principles to humans, by whatever means, it is now OUR responsibility to understand and interpret them; we may depend on miraculous displays and supernatural events no longer. We are to grow up and figure out for ourselves what is just and right, and the Torah itself is subject to human judgment.

And what, according to the story, was God's reaction to this?

He is said to have laughed. "My children have defeated Me!" God was pleased at the development of humans standing on their own, needing His guidance no longer. That is apparently what He intended.

This is not a matter of human arrogance; Jews believe that we were, and are, commanded to do this in the Torah itself. We are to work out the meaning of the Law in every generation, while never turning our backs on the tradition--the cumulative wisdom and judgment of the generations of the Wise who came before us.

Jews do not believe that God gave us a Book that would be an infallible guide to history, science, or even ethics, and that we can stop using our brains and just look up all the answers in its pages. We believe that He gave us brains to use, and to the very best of our ability.

(One of the corollaries of that belief is that Jews, by and large, do not resist science but revere it. To one who believes in a real God, all facts are God's facts and we need not fear them. That is why Jews regard ALL learning as sacred, and also why Jews are so heavily overrepresented in the sciences--and why Jews generally have no problem with evolution.)

Now that the process that has formed, and is still forming, the body of Jewish teaching and practice is clear (I hope), the rest is anticlimactic. For Jews, ethics are above doctrine or theology; the enormous mass of discussions and arguments in the Talmud and later works have to do with proper and righteous actions, and very rarely indeed with how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. (There is much of that sort of thing in the folk literature, and it's regarded as fun and interesting, but ultimately trivial.)

The core of the Torah, and of Judaism generally, is the laws--moral laws--that we believe God gave us. Initially, of course, there were ten; though there are conceded to be many others in the Books, most of the other 603 laws for Jews (613 is a traditional and symbolic number; no one has ever produced a definitive list) are derived from the Ten Words, as Jews call them.

And those Words are really nothing very special. They basically boil down to two principles: "I am God, the real deal; accept no substitutes and don't be suckered by phonies," and, as outlined at the beginning here, "If you don't like it, don't lay it on anybody else." (Corollary to that would be, "Hey, don't forget to treat YOURSELF right, too; take a day off once a week. I did.") Everything else in Judaism--everything--is derived from those two rather reasonable ideas.

So why didn't God just give us two Commandments instead of ten? Moses would only have had to carry one little rock instead of two big ones. My guess is that God was very aware of the capacity of humans for hypocrisy and rationalization. "Hey, I don't care if you mess with MY wife..." "Well, he doesn't really need it, and I do, so I'm gonna take it..." And so on. We need specifics.

The sages of old had even less faith in human nature than God did; they tried to spell out every conceivable detail of what is right and not right in every field of human endeavor--for Jews, anyway. 613 Commandments, and one heckuva lot of customs beyond those.

Gentiles have it easier. In Jewish tradition, they are subject to only seven laws, and some of them aren't in the Ten. As far as figuring out what other laws ought to be derived from those, you guys are on your own, just like we are (and we profess to know nothing about what happens if they aren't followed, either. Not our business).

If your objection to religion is the bare belief in a God, well, that can't be helped. But if you're hostile toward the supernatural in general, you won't get much disagreement from us. So are we.

You won't catch a rabbi telling anyone to throw away his insulin, cancel his surgery, and jump out of his wheelchair and dance. Oh, we pray for healing, to be sure; but we expect to receive it--if we do--at the hands of a physician and not through a parting of the clouds. So God has nothing to do with it? Well, no; He made that doctor's brain and hands, and those of the other doctors who taught him his trade.

In my opinion, Judaism is not really comparable with any other religion. It is sui generis, unique. Does that mean it is the One True Faith? Do we Jews hold The Truth, and those who hold all other faiths, or none, are ignorant, benighted and doomed?

Some Jews might feel that way, but the voice of the tradition, which is in this matter authoritative, is clear. Again, we know only how God chose to speak to US. How He may choose to deal with others is no business of ours, and we have no warrant to either endorse or reject any other faith, or to judge those with none.

Some will no doubt notice that I have not mentioned the issue of "salvation" at all. That is because for Jews, it is not an issue. The focus of our religion is this life, not the next. God is the true Judge, and both His justice and His mercy are perfect; we are content to trust Him with whatever may happen after death, if anything does. We don't claim to know.

This may be because when we were delivered from slavery in Egypt, we left a culture that was obsessed with death and the afterlife. We do not regard such an obsession to be the proper focus of a people who profess to serve God and their fellow humans. This world is where we have been placed to serve, not the next.

Questions and comments are welcome, though I will not feel compelled to answer them all--and particularly those that wish to convince me that my beliefs are false, foolish, against Scripture, or condemn me to Hell. Feel free to hold those opinions, but I see no need to try to prove anything to anyone. My intention here, as I stated at the beginning, is to inform only; no more, no less.

Thanks for reading.

[cnorman18]

cnorman,

You focus on a anecdotal reference in exclusion to the context.

That was the only point where I thought I had something useful (and on-topic) to say.

Yes. Marginalization happens everywhere. Exactly. In the 1960's, we talked about the alienation of humanity in modern western life. Nothing has changed, except we forgot about the topic.

So. Why do people get marginalized in both Jewish and Christian spheres? It doesn't have anything to do with being Jewish or Christian. It has everything to do with being American, and immersed in the increasingly corporatized west.

Then it's offtopic on this thread, isn't it? This is a religion forum, and this thread is about the nature of Judaism. If you want to start a thread on alienation, feel free. This isn't it.

You know, and I know: That there's a hell of shipwreck over in the Church. Christology? There ain't no christology left in mainlinedom. The historical-critical dissection of the New Testament leaves no viable Christ. Mainlinedom has utterly failed to run a religion on Bultmann's vision of the Hellenistic kyrygma Christ. You can't run a church on that. You know that. So. They have a busted New Testament...and then what's left...oh, yeah: OT. And that's what the Historical Jesus scholars have ended up with...a de-godded Jesus the Jew...and...the implications for community with that are....?????

Not all Christians, and not even all Christian clergy or scholars, agree with that assessment, and I'm not just talking about the fundamentalists. You're entitled to your opinion, but it's a bit early to declare that Christianity has collapsed or is even close. Further, I fail to see why it is up to Jews to solve the problems of the Christian church.

Oh, not your problem? Well, yeah. It is our problem. That's why Amy-Jill Levine is at Vanderbilt. With mainline rotted the hell out...that leaves just the Armageggon set...and they've been on a tear now for 30 years. You want Blackwater Jesus War Freaks running the world? Well, we ought to do something about that. Did Jews or Christians stand up to Bush, Cheney, & Rumsfeld over their 8 years? No. America and the world were subjected to a damn nasty rash of abject freakin rabid religio-war mongering using Christianity as the grease.

Sorry, not everyone agrees with that rather extreme leftist view of the second Bush administration - and that's offtopic too.

I don't plan to debate it. I come here to discuss religion, not politics.

Hitler successfully divided and conquered synagogue and church by first inflitrating the Church.

That's extremely debatable, and also offtopic.

It matters what they are doing over there with their Jesus. I am suggesting....the good guys still left over there with their broken religion...need a little help. And it's in all of our interest. The world needs more out of Judaism than the squabbles over who is Jewish enough.

Are you suggesting that that is all that Judaism has contributed to the world in recent years? That's nonsense.

Further, I personally wouldn't care to see Christians attempting to determine what Jews ought to believe or do, even if they were acting out of compassion and a conviction that we "need a little help."

Perhaps I should rephrase that. I wouldn't want to see any MORE of that. There are quite enough Christians on this board eager to tell Jews what to believe already (or even more outrageously, what we really do believe even though we don't know it).

I notice that you had no response to the fact that I SAID that I AM AN INTERSEXUAL...like I didn't even say it.

And you expected me to say what?

I affirm the dignity and worth and the right to self-determination of every human being. That has gone without saying for virtually all of my life. I didn't respond to your statement because (1) the nature of your sexuality is none of my business, (2) I have nothing to say about it, and (3) IT'S OFFTOPIC.

The reason I say it, is to make the point that there are realities in actual life that defy the so-called hard lines that people draw.

No kidding. Now if you could show me a place where I have drawn "so-called hard lines" that affect or apply to you in some way, that point would be relevant.

I understand your concerns about alienation, and your concern about the attitudes of others about your sexuality. What I don't understand is hijacking a thread on an entirely different topic to express them.

Or. Maybe I should have been an abortion.

Maybe you should lighten up a little - and maybe take the concerns and opinions of others as seriously as you take your own.

[Jonah]

cnorman,

I think something got garbled in my note about "help", or perhaps I didn't understand your response to that point due to whatever deficit on my part. But, my concern is that the breakdown in mainline Christianity leaves a void to be filled with the religious right, and I think that's destructive to tikkun olam. You term my analysis extreme left. I can't control name calling. But, I would point out the anti-semitism that resides widely in the liberal left of mainline Christianity. They're rather mindless about it in my view as they lack grounding generally. They mean well in the sense that they have a peace and justice agenda that has common interest with tikkun olam...hence they are "good guys" in that regard, but clumsy, and it would seem to me better to reach out to them...as Kushner et al do.

Now, I would back up. It is my opinion that your statement, subsequent to your original post, was your own introduction of the idea that Jews have no concern with Jesus. If you now regard that subtopic which you introduced to be off topic, fine. People can change their minds. But, in my own view such a statement is overly antagonistic, and simply not true. While I did not at all appreciate the extreme statement of the person you were responding to, neither do I think a shot gun blast of non-interest was helpful in the task explaining Judaism or much of anything constructive.

I don't agree with the non-interest. In my view, a sizable portion of the Jewish People have gone out and married Christians, raised Christian children, and taken Christians into our shuls as associate members. We have Christians. I would rather that we take care of one another. In my own house, my daughter considered Judaism...went to agnosticism...and went back to Christianity in another tradition than our family formerly came out of. I have a Christian. I will be interested in her and her Jesus.

To me, Judaism is about tikkun olam. And in saying that, I will stop with my "What Judaism Is" as I fail to see how I can improve on the better answer of Hillel, and "all the rest is commentary" rings true with me. It seems to me that what is to be repaired is exactly the alienation that we in western culture will always want to call off topic. In Ten Rungs, Martin Buber writes of a world that is a spinning die, and things change one into another, and yet inhere in a wholeness. We should hope. And yet he wrote of Christianity and Judaism of being two different kinds of religions (which they are), but after he considered becoming a Christian.

Both Hillel and Jesus were asked to boil the faith down to a nutshell, and they both came up with the same answer. I don't think we should forget that.

The repair of wholeness is set against the fragmentation of alienation. Beyond the question of What Judaism Is ...is the question of What it is for? In my own life, an old lady in shul having attitude about me being a convert is the least of my life challenges. I am much different than that, and that is the import of broaching intersexuality. The experience of alienation is a tutor unto that state in others in all its myriad of exemplars....each exemplar gasping for breath in a world responding "off topic". What does the Black Gay Jew experience in my shul? What does the Jew who has come to financial ruin and cannot speak of it feel in my shul? What do the aged Jews feel when all the programming is set for the young? What do those who are not sure what Judaism is feel in the presence of those who are sure and articulate as to what Judaism is? My rabbi's daughter is not sure if she is a Jew or not. Now, we could recite halacha for her...I not sure letting her know if she were to become a Christian as she is contemplating would at least leave her an apostate Jew...is going to be all that helpful to her.

In my own view, we have good reason to have interest in that which has already become part of our existence, hard though it be.

When my wife and I converted, our extended families rejected us despite our attempts to have another outcome. They said to us "off topic".

When I was a school teacher after ministry, once I was assigned to a new building. I was replacing a teacher who was leaving, and I was told she was still in the building packing up her stuff. I was also told that she was a horrible person. I was told she had a chip on her shoulder because she converted to Judaism and she had attitude about people supposedly not supporting her conversion. I decided that I would go meet this person. I found her in her room weeping. After a long conversation, what I learned about this person was that she was not a horrible person at all. She was a mother whose teenage daughter died from cancer. Her conversion to Judaism was a life change that helped her deal with the loss. Her grief in the building was that no one would talk to her about her daughter. It was "off topic". I was not yet a Jew. But if being open to an moment of existential repair...to listen...is tikkun olam...well, there's the ball park.

It was not many years later that I tried to explain to the in-laws that our conversion helped us deal with the death of our son. But, they would not listen.

[Jrosemary]

I notice that you had no response to the fact that I SAID that I AM AN INTERSEXUAL...like I didn't even say it. The reason I say it, is to make the point that there are realities in actual life that defy the so-called hard lines that people draw.

A few questions:

1. What is an intersexual? (Clueless lesbian here: hopefully I won't lose my GLBTQ card for not knowing.)

2. Why should I care that you're one?

3. How is your sexuality relevant to the topic?

[Goat]

I notice that you had no response to the fact that I SAID that I AM AN INTERSEXUAL...like I didn't even say it. The reason I say it, is to make the point that there are realities in actual life that defy the so-called hard lines that people draw.

A few questions:

1. What is an intersexual? (Clueless lesbian here: hopefully I won't lose my GLBTQ card for not knowing.)

2. Why should I care that you're one?

3. How is your sexuality relevant to the topic?

It is an individual who was born with physical characteristics of both male and female.
Some of them can be considered true hemaphrodites, while other have neither penis or vagina

[Jrosemary]

Hey Jonah,

I just read your last post. My condolences on the loss of your son.

As to the main point of your post--frankly, I'm not sure I understand it. You seem excessively concerned with what's going on in mainline Protestant Christianity. But, again, that's a Christian issue. By all means, be there for the Christians in your family and in your shul. But that's different from trying to solve another religion's issues. To me it seems disrepectful and condescending to imagine that one religion needs another's help to 'fix it.'

As for the issue of marginilization--I'll echo CNorman. If you or your family feel marginilized in your shul, find a new one. I belong to a Conservative shul that has welcomed me with open arms. I've never had any issues as a gay person or as a convert to Judaism. The Christians in my family have likewise always felt welcome.

One more point--there are many wonderful Jewish communities out there, but none are perfect. Each will have it's own issues; each will have its share of headaches. If you aren't prepared for that, you're setting yourself up for permanent disappointment.

So don't be afraid to shop around--but understand that you're unlikely to find paradise. Whatever synagogue you end up in will need your help to make it a stronger and ever more welcoming community.

[Jrosemary]

It [an intersexual] is an individual who was born with physical characteristics of both male and female.
Some of them can be considered true hemaphrodites, while other have neither penis or vagina

Thanks for the definition!

Well, I hope your synagogue has never marginilized you for this, Jonah. If so, definitely find a new one.

[Jonah]

jrosemary,

Thank you for your response.

I shall attempt a clarification. Whether it works or not, we shall see. My concern is for neighbor and world. My analysis is that breakdowns in cultures, be they religious or secular, create dangerous voids. So, my concern is not for mainline Protestantism itself, but the impact of the religious right and on all us, as they have filled the mainline void, and with their new power done incredibly destructive things to everyone...the whole fabric of society. This happened in Germany. The Nazis first infiltrated the Church, which was anemic, and the Nazis literally replaced mainstream Church with a "German Christianity". People of various beliefs saw what was happening, warned, but not enough listened.

And then also, as stated before, there is a "left wing problem" due to a voided out center. Currently in the mainline churches, there is a new outbreak of anti-semitism. And it happens mostly at the leadership level against the will of the people in the pews. The leadership indeed are leftist, anti-Israel, pro-Hamas, etc...and they have a full blown propaganda machine. The Presbyterian Church a few years ago created a new unit designed expressly to evangelize Jews. In addition, the PCUSA leadership was being very aggressive in their support of Hamas...I think they even met with Hamas. Out of this, a huge protest erupted including a petition signing to the PCUSA leadership to reverse the perverse policy. The petition was signed in the thousands by equal numbers of Jews and Christians...all of them citing the kinds of relational language I have used on this thread.

In my old denomination, the ELCA, the same thing has happened. A terribly misguided leadership has formed alliances with radical anti-Israel and anti-Jewish organizations in Palestine. They even went to the sick point of creating a liturgical campaign where a Palestinian Made Communion Set was sent around to congregations so that the Eucharist could be celebrated in solidarity with the Palestinian people (oppressed by Israel)....thus politicizing the Sacrament and drumming up support for Hamas through a Sacrament....over against the will and/or ignorance of common folk in the pews. This is extremely destructive, in my view.

Why do people in cultures become prey to these extremes, left or right? It happens when the times themselves are disorienting and alienating. We know this. I think we can do something about that by using the resources and relationships we have at hand toward tikkun olam. If we are totally hands off, I think we miss needed opportunities.

In regard to anti-semitism in the mainline churches, the topic has been widely written about, and I've seen the comment several times that Jewish rabbis just don't know what to do about it. They have relationships in their local communities with Christian clergy, but for the most part are loathe to broach the subject. I, for one, just don't think that not talking about things, and not trying to form closer relationships is a good way to go...especially since we already have Christians in our lives. That's my take.

My general attitude is a mystic one. Buber's relational universe is not every Jew's cup of tea, but it's Jewish.

I suppose I am saying the same thing here over and over in slightly different ways. In regard to intersexuality, unfortunately, it is something that becomes "no ones business" so much....that there is virtually no literature in the helping professions on the interior lives of intersexuals. The vast bulk of the minimal research on record is from captive prison populations. So, untouchable the subject and people are, people just do not "come out" in public. I did so on the internet because no one can get to me in that format. Rarely does it ever come up. A rare occasion happened a couple months ago with the woman African athlete who was stripped of her winnings because she was suspected. They subjected her to examination and tests, and she was stripped of her award and made the object of scorn and ridicule. Jewish sports writer David Zirin made one passionate defense of her on MSNBC and David Shuster and Monica Navotny laughed it off. There are justice issues with this subject. Those issues include the forced surgery and chemical treatments intersexual children are subjected to with no say in the matter whatsoever. Those are exteror things that can reported. Any deeper discussion of the interior journeys cannot be discussed because there is no receptor in human society currently. Zirin in his defense spoke of evolutionary progress in understanding the reality of humanity, and he was utterly laughed off. So. I think there is a parable there for all the other human conditions which are also off limits. A better shul does not address problems that are entirely universally human and in need of that human evolutionary progress...which has to be part an parcel of tikkun olam.

I would ask that we not say we are not interested...even if the topic is Jesus or intersexuality...or the plight of Gypsy/Roma people (a cause of mine as my mother was Roma). Buber wrote I And Thou....because he had some college kid come to ask him something when he was busy...he blew the kid off...and the kid committed suicide.

There's a Jewish expression: "Let's talk".

[Jonah]

In giving some more thought to the question of how this or that marginalization links to the topic...why should a Jew care about this or that marginalization....

In my mind it goes to an aspect of what Judaism is about that can be added to the list of 7 things in the original post. Rabbi Marc Raphel taught that Judaism is a "civilization". To me, a civilization is something that evolves and expands over time...its concerns become wider and more inclusive. Hence, the popular understanding of something that is deemed civilized.

On one hand, non-interest/not my business could be a position of respect. Often it's a position of passive aggression or just non-regard. Then there are the differences between intent on one end, and perception on the other.

My rabbi speaks wistfully of going out and doing mitzvot to sanctify the world. He's a lose canon. He built the shul from nothing. For 17 years the congregation had no building. They met in a church. The sign outside was divided in half...the name of the church/the name of the synagogue. So. There was an intimate relationship with Christians that the original founders of the shul appreciated. We wouldn't want to destroy that, would we? It would seem civilized to me to actively advance the relationship, again, given the Christians are already there in good number in interfaith families.

I am very hard on Christians who preach what Jews and Judaism are from old nonsense they've been handed generation after generation. Yet, I know there are many opportunities for just not Jewish-Christian dialogue but the kind of familial relation that has been portrayed in the papal-Jewish meetings...which included repentence on the part of the Christian side. Hmm. Is that hogwash? Are we just tolerating the Christians in our shuls? It's their business how they run their family...they're welcome as....what? Neighbors? Fellow Citizens of the city or town? Or as John Paul would say, as "brothers and sisters"???

So. A question I pose in direct response to the 7 attributes of Judaism listed in the op is:

Does Judaism have a Brother? And is this one of the defining attributes of Judaism. Maybe it's reverse. Maimonides asserted Christianity (and Islam) had the purpose or utility of disseminating the essence of the Torah to the gentiles.

Rosemary Radford Reuther, a Catholic, wrote a history of the Church's anti-semitism...as horrible as it is...and titled the work "Faith and Fratricide"...which lends itself to describing some horror of anti-Judaism in terms of familial...sibling homicide. Or is Reuther's idea...her way of describing the horror of the genocide...basically hogwash?

[cnorman18]

I agree with everything you have said here, and I can't see where I have ever said anything that contradicts it. I have often said, in fact, that the battle is not between Christians and Jews, but between Christians and Jews on one side and modern idol-worshippers - those who worship things, like money, power, fame, gratification - on the other. We are brothers and sisters, not enemies; partners, not competitors.

Dialogue among the religions is desirable, even essential; but I don't think that dialogue can be entered into effectively with the attitude, "Here, your religion is irretrievably broken, pointless and bankrupt; let me show you what you need." Even if I thought that to be true, which I don't, I would never patronize the members of another faith community with that kind of insulting arrogance. Never cared for being punched in the nose, myself.

I reject that attitude because it is the same as that evidenced by very many Christians when they claim to want to "dialogue" with Jews, and then tell us that what we need is Jesus. The proper answer to such an approach is "You can take your precious advice and go to Hell; I didn't ask for it, and I don't want it." (That, or a punch in the nose.) I don't care to have that answer directed at me, and even more, I don't want to deserve it.

Jews, by and large, don't even tell each other what to believe. There isn't even anything in our religion that is analogous to Christology; how and why would anyone expect us to address those issues in a religion to which we don't subscribe? The divinity/salvific power/nature/role of Jesus is a Christian problem, insofar as it is a problem for anyone at all, and not a Jewish problem.

From what I've seen, we Jews have our hands full educating our fellow Jews about our OWN religion. I have personally heard two (born) Jewish women in the following conversation:

"What makes food kosher, anyway?"

"The rabbi just has to bless it."

I was not yet Jewish at that time, and had to virtually bite my tongue to keep from saying, "No, that would be voodoo."

[Jonah]

cnorman,

ahah. lol. Thank you. I like the last well put illustration. I shall contribute a similar one at the close of my comment here.

Okay. Yes. I agree with how you have put it here. This is my further reflection: It seems to me that there is a big difference between the preaching/rhetorical mode and what gets communicated on a personal relational level. We have personal relationships with Christians, and I think we can be helpful (in all directions) through those relationships...and that can even be in a congregation to congregation basis if the context is NOT some official "dialogue" which I agree...is always worthless in my experience. But what I think of is the interfaith experience where people are working on a project for the betterment of the greater community...they find a way to pray together...they work together...and without "dialog" .....something better than dialog happens...trust. So. When the Jews go home, the in-house Christian conversation is transformed to something more noble than before...concerning "the Jews". But you are absolutely right in my opinion...with the "dialog" thing, what I have witnessed are both garish condescension's from Christians and/or a sort of "talk pretty to the Jews while they're here"....but when they go home...it's business as usual...as in all the same anti-Jewish junk in sermons and Sunday School lessons. That stuff hurts Christians who have their hearts in the right place...but their environment is on that diseased auto-pilot of two centuries on nonsense anti-Judaism. So. I think what you have helped me clarify is that my idea is really one of indirect effects.

Yes. My wife and I have had elderly Reform people admit to us that they know very little of their religion. It's their charming way I supposed of complimenting younger people, but it speaks to a reality. And there's the little rubs between Reform and Conservative/Orthodox. A buddy used to go a community Jewish institute on Jewish learning run mostly by Conservatives and he told me one of teachers jokingly said, "You know you Reform aren't real Jews you know...you just play with dreidels at Chanukah." Ah, a little competition doesn't hurt, I guess.

On the Christian side. Our daughter opted into Orthodox Christianity. So we went to an Advent retreat with her, just for conversation sake or moral support or curiosity on our part...what was our daughter getting into? Anyway, the priest went through a lengthy exposition on John the Baptist...the forerunner of Jesus...and Jesus' baptism by John and the theological significance of all that. So, in the Q & A, an older leading elder of the congregation asked the priest why Jesus' parents didn't have him baptized when he was a baby.