Lap Dancing Clubs

[Furrowed Brow]

Ok just had a night out on the town.

Questions:

Is it immoral to be a dancer in lap dancing club?
Is it immoral tol be a waitress or waiter or doorman for a lap dancing club?
Is it immoral to be a punter in a lap dancing club?

[Megaboomer]

well your wrong on all accounts again Goat.
Sodom and Gomorrah was found and has already been stated as fact. what evidence do you have on the contrary.

also i didn't say the other archaeological facts prove the bibles mystical claims i said it does nothing but support the bible as truth.

also why did the religious leaders get so offended at Jesus when he quoted the versus of the old testament. they knew that he associated those verses with himself and these verses as messianic and any scholar that knows anything about orthodox jewish writings will tell you that the prophecies stated were in fact the ones referred to by Jesus.

Lee Strobel did His research for "the case for Christ" as an atheist in pursuit of finding a flaw in it's reasoning. if your calling him a liar then that's your opinion and if Lee wanted to make money his main objective he wouldn't invest in in proving "non-original statements" like you said.

also since when has the nation of Israel been a secular nation or the jewish people for that matter.....
mabey i just didn't know what you meant.

[Goat]

well your wrong on all accounts again Goat.
Sodom and Gomorrah was found and has already been stated as fact. what evidence do you have on the contrary.

Have you actually LOOKED at the alleged evidence? Finding a path through the desert and seeing some villages is not evidence that the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah have been found. Aish is making a claim based on their religious beliefs.

also i didn't say the other archaeological facts prove the bibles mystical claims i said it does nothing but support the bible as truth.

Does it? I challenge you on that. Finding desert paths through villages does not
support 'the bible as truth', particuarly your interpretation.

also why did the religious leaders get so offended at Jesus when he quoted the versus of the old testament. they knew that he associated those verses with himself and these verses as messianic and any scholar that knows anything about orthodox jewish writings will tell you that the prophecies stated were in fact the ones referred to by Jesus.

Why don't you take it to a new thread, and we can discuss it there. However, I would also like to see outside confirmation that 'Jesus' said those things, and the Jewish authorities got upset.

Lee Strobel did His research for "the case for Christ" as an atheist in pursuit of finding a flaw in it's reasoning. if your calling him a liar then that's your opinion and if Lee wanted to make money his main objective he wouldn't invest in in proving "non-original statements" like you said.

How does repeating a claim like this show anything? How about going to one of the threads we have discussing this, or starting a new one.

also since when has the nation of Israel been a secular nation or the jewish people for that matter.....
mabey i just didn't know what you meant.

The nation of Israel is not run by the religious authorities.. just in case you didn't notice.

That makes it a secular nation.

[Megaboomer]

well your wrong on all accounts again Goat.
Sodom and Gomorrah was found and has already been stated as fact. what evidence do you have on the contrary.

Have you actually LOOKED at the alleged evidence? Finding a path through the desert and seeing some villages is not evidence that the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah have been found. Aish is making a claim based on their religious beliefs.

----yes, I have, and numerous amounts of it in class and various other websites that have proof plus I personally know a person who has been there and seen most of these places ( teacher at CCBC California) i could give you his name if you want.
Here you go, here’s yet another site this one might be a little easier... it’s got pictures. http://www.arkdiscovery.com/sodom_&_gomorrah.htm

also i didn't say the other archaeological facts prove the bibles mystical claims i said it does nothing but support the bible as truth.

Does it? I challenge you on that. Finding desert paths through villages does not
support 'the bible as truth', particuarly your interpretation.

-----#1 -- "I know of no finding in archaeology that’s properly confirmed which is in opposition to the Scriptures. The Bible is the most accurate history textbook the world has ever seen." - Dr Clifford Wilson, formerly director of the Australian Institute of Archaeology (quote obtained from: Archaeologist Speaks Out)
---#2--- "It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference. Scores of archaeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And, by the same token, proper evaluation of Biblical description has often led to amazing discoveries." - Dr. Nelson Glueck, Rivers in the Desert, (New York: Farrar, Strous and Cudahy, 1959), 136.
-----#3----"On the whole, however, archaeological work has unquestionably strengthened confidence in the reliability of the Scriptural record. More than one archaeologist has found his respect for the Bible increased by the experience of excavation in Palestine....Archaeology has in many cases refuted the views of modern critics. It has shown, in a number of instances, that these views rest on false assumptions and unreal, artificial schemes of historical development. This is a real contribution and not to be minimized." - Millar Burrows, Professor of Archaeology at Yale University, What Mean These Stones?, Meridian Books, New York, NY, 1956, p. 1
-----#4-----"I set out to look for truth on the borderland where Greece and Asia meet, and found it there. You may press the words of Luke in a degree beyond any other historian's and they stand the keenest scrutiny and the hardest treatment." - Sir William Ramsey (eminent archaeologists who changed his mind regarding Luke after extensive study in the field), (1915), The Bearing of Recent Discovery on the Trustworthiness of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1975 reprint), page 89.
-----#5------"The reader may rest assured that nothing has been found [by archaeologists] to disturb a reasonable faith, and nothing has been discovered which can disprove a single theological doctrine. We no longer trouble ourselves with attempts to 'harmonize' religion and science, or to 'prove' the Bible. The Bible can stand for itself." - Dr. William F. Albright, eminent archeologist who confirmed the authenticity of the Dead Sea Scrolls following their discovery
---is this kinda what you where looking for?

also why did the religious leaders get so offended at Jesus when he quoted the versus of the old testament. they knew that he associated those verses with himself and these verses as messianic and any scholar that knows anything about orthodox jewish writings will tell you that the prophecies stated were in fact the ones referred to by Jesus.

Why don't you take it to a new thread, and we can discuss it there. However, I would also like to see outside confirmation that 'Jesus' said those things, and the Jewish authorities got upset.

#1 (Luke 19:38-43) this goes with (Ps 118:26) and (Isaiah 56:7) check it out for yourself. Luke is a good enough source for reputable truth as stated by Christian and secular critics.

Also here’s all kinds of places where Jesus quotes old testament scripture. http://www.bible.ca/b-canon-old-testame ... ostles.htm

“The Talmud records Jesus' healing of the blind, the lame and the leprous. It also mentions his walking on the sea! But the Talmud also speaks of Jesus as having learned sorcery in Egypt (recall Matthew 12:24), in an attempt to discredit his miracles and his claim to being the very Son of God. The Talmud also records a list of references to Jesus' mother, Mary, but in a non-complimentary sense.�

Reference to Jesus is also made by the Jewish historian, priest and general Flavius Josephus, who was born about A.D. 37. Writing about the death, in Jerusalem, of James, Josephus casually speaks of him as "the brother of Jesus who was called Christ" Antiquities of the Jews, XX: 9,1).
--- the above also proves that Jesus established himself as the Christ. Which the religious leaders did not believe he was. Which is why they had Him killed for continuous blasphemy (as they say).

Lee Strobel did His research for "the case for Christ" as an atheist in pursuit of finding a flaw in it's reasoning. if your calling him a liar then that's your opinion and if Lee wanted to make money his main objective he wouldn't invest in in proving "non-original statements" like you said.

How does repeating a claim like this show anything? How about going to one of the threads we have discussing this, or starting a new one.

Your right we will have to discuss this further in another thread.

also since when has the nation of Israel been a secular nation or the jewish people for that matter.....
mabey i just didn't know what you meant.

The nation of Israel is not run by the religious authorities.. just in case you didn't notice.

That makes it a secular nation.

That has nothing to do with it even if the nation isn’t run by religious people. Israel is a Jewish nation therefore it is religious by heritage. You can’t deny where you came from. Why when people think of rabbi’s and Passover and feast of tabernacles and Pentecost do they think of the Jews. Obviously because they are by rule a religious people. You can’t escape the fact if Israel is run by Jewish people then it is a nation run by religion.

“During his Monday morning speech at the Knesset, Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, demanded the Palestinian Authority to recognize Israel as a Jewish State.�

http://www.imemc.org/index.php?obj_id=53&story_id=56769

----doesn’t sound to me like the leaders aren’t religious if they want Israel as a Jewish state and they are jewish themselves.

[Goat]

well your wrong on all accounts again Goat.
Sodom and Gomorrah was found and has already been stated as fact. what evidence do you have on the contrary.

Have you actually LOOKED at the alleged evidence? Finding a path through the desert and seeing some villages is not evidence that the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah have been found. Aish is making a claim based on their religious beliefs.

----yes, I have, and numerous amounts of it in class and various other websites that have proof plus I personally know a person who has been there and seen most of these places ( teacher at CCBC California) i could give you his name if you want.
Here you go, here’s yet another site this one might be a little easier... it’s got pictures. http://www.arkdiscovery.com/sodom_&_gomorrah.htm

also i didn't say the other archaeological facts prove the bibles mystical claims i said it does nothing but support the bible as truth.

Does it? I challenge you on that. Finding desert paths through villages does not
support 'the bible as truth', particuarly your interpretation.

-----#1 -- "I know of no finding in archaeology that’s properly confirmed which is in opposition to the Scriptures. The Bible is the most accurate history textbook the world has ever seen." - Dr Clifford Wilson, formerly director of the Australian Institute of Archaeology (quote obtained from: Archaeologist Speaks Out)
---#2--- "It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference. Scores of archaeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And, by the same token, proper evaluation of Biblical description has often led to amazing discoveries." - Dr. Nelson Glueck, Rivers in the Desert, (New York: Farrar, Strous and Cudahy, 1959), 136.
-----#3----"On the whole, however, archaeological work has unquestionably strengthened confidence in the reliability of the Scriptural record. More than one archaeologist has found his respect for the Bible increased by the experience of excavation in Palestine....Archaeology has in many cases refuted the views of modern critics. It has shown, in a number of instances, that these views rest on false assumptions and unreal, artificial schemes of historical development. This is a real contribution and not to be minimized." - Millar Burrows, Professor of Archaeology at Yale University, What Mean These Stones?, Meridian Books, New York, NY, 1956, p. 1
-----#4-----"I set out to look for truth on the borderland where Greece and Asia meet, and found it there. You may press the words of Luke in a degree beyond any other historian's and they stand the keenest scrutiny and the hardest treatment." - Sir William Ramsey (eminent archaeologists who changed his mind regarding Luke after extensive study in the field), (1915), The Bearing of Recent Discovery on the Trustworthiness of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1975 reprint), page 89.
-----#5------"The reader may rest assured that nothing has been found [by archaeologists] to disturb a reasonable faith, and nothing has been discovered which can disprove a single theological doctrine. We no longer trouble ourselves with attempts to 'harmonize' religion and science, or to 'prove' the Bible. The Bible can stand for itself." - Dr. William F. Albright, eminent archeologist who confirmed the authenticity of the Dead Sea Scrolls following their discovery
---is this kinda what you where looking for?

also why did the religious leaders get so offended at Jesus when he quoted the versus of the old testament. they knew that he associated those verses with himself and these verses as messianic and any scholar that knows anything about orthodox jewish writings will tell you that the prophecies stated were in fact the ones referred to by Jesus.

Why don't you take it to a new thread, and we can discuss it there. However, I would also like to see outside confirmation that 'Jesus' said those things, and the Jewish authorities got upset.

#1 (Luke 19:38-43) this goes with (Ps 118:26) and (Isaiah 56:7) check it out for yourself. Luke is a good enough source for reputable truth as stated by Christian and secular critics.

Also here’s all kinds of places where Jesus quotes old testament scripture. http://www.bible.ca/b-canon-old-testame ... ostles.htm

“The Talmud records Jesus' healing of the blind, the lame and the leprous. It also mentions his walking on the sea! But the Talmud also speaks of Jesus as having learned sorcery in Egypt (recall Matthew 12:24), in an attempt to discredit his miracles and his claim to being the very Son of God. The Talmud also records a list of references to Jesus' mother, Mary, but in a non-complimentary sense.�

Reference to Jesus is also made by the Jewish historian, priest and general Flavius Josephus, who was born about A.D. 37. Writing about the death, in Jerusalem, of James, Josephus casually speaks of him as "the brother of Jesus who was called Christ" Antiquities of the Jews, XX: 9,1).
--- the above also proves that Jesus established himself as the Christ. Which the religious leaders did not believe he was. Which is why they had Him killed for continuous blasphemy (as they say).

Lee Strobel did His research for "the case for Christ" as an atheist in pursuit of finding a flaw in it's reasoning. if your calling him a liar then that's your opinion and if Lee wanted to make money his main objective he wouldn't invest in in proving "non-original statements" like you said.

How does repeating a claim like this show anything? How about going to one of the threads we have discussing this, or starting a new one.

Your right we will have to discuss this further in another thread.

also since when has the nation of Israel been a secular nation or the jewish people for that matter.....
mabey i just didn't know what you meant.

The nation of Israel is not run by the religious authorities.. just in case you didn't notice.

That makes it a secular nation.

That has nothing to do with it even if the nation isn’t run by religious people. Israel is a Jewish nation therefore it is religious by heritage. You can’t deny where you came from. Why when people think of rabbi’s and Passover and feast of tabernacles and Pentecost do they think of the Jews. Obviously because they are by rule a religious people. You can’t escape the fact if Israel is run by Jewish people then it is a nation run by religion.

“During his Monday morning speech at the Knesset, Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, demanded the Palestinian Authority to recognize Israel as a Jewish State.�

http://www.imemc.org/index.php?obj_id=53&story_id=56769

----doesn’t sound to me like the leaders aren’t religious if they want Israel as a Jewish state and they are jewish themselves.

Oh wow, pictures..

Some how, I am not every impressed. The claims of a religiously motivated group , who frankly are making outrageous claims to for religious and financial reasons don't hold much weight with me.

I do love the way you quote mine, take things out of context, and use very very bad sources.

If you look at the structure of Israel, you will find it is run by people who are demoncratically elected, and not based strictly on their religion, nor are the laws based on the Torah and the Talmud. Yes, religion does play a big part in the politics, but you can't go by some persons rhetoric about religion to see if the actual nation is based on religious laws.

As for Sodom and Gohomorra, lets see you find an scholarly article in an archeological journal rather than some psuedoscientifice religious web site that makes claims. Do you know what 'peer review' is? Do you know what 'Quote Mining' is, and why 'quote mining' is dishonest?

Any person can make some video that makes claims, but lets see those claims being backed up with , you know, real evidence rather than off the cuff claims, pointing ot a rock and saying "Oh, this is from the ark of the convent' without reason?

Frankly, anybody who is quoted as an 'authority' from 'answers in genesis' doesn't make the grade in my opinion. It doesn't matter what a person says, I want it backed up with real evidence, not using the logical fallacy known as 'appeal to authority'

[Megaboomer]

---It’s funny to me how atheists think that if someone believes in miracles and a god/ the supernatural, they have to have a lower intelligence level or their religious bias demeans their sense of logic.
---According to you it seems, from a young age these false lying archeologists decided that they would come together to get degrees and schooling in archeology for the soul purpose of deceiving people into their religion.
---It’s quite a hilarious conspiracy theory. Many of these men including hundreds of others have dedicated there lives to honest research and have made many creditable discoveries.
----common sense and logic will rule who has the best evidence. So far I haven’t seen any claims to the contrary on evidence found to discredit my sources by notable archeologists other than your own bias.
----- Quote mining. Lol. It’s only dishonest if it’s not true or not in context, which it is neither. If it has then please elaborate for the forum how I have done so because everyone that I quoted is saying exactly what I said that they are saying.
---- Taking thinks out of context... I didn’t do any of the sort. Anyone can see that the mindset of each view I have expressed is accurate. If you can please explain how I have done this so that I can rectify my elaboration.
----bad sources lol. Have you seen the credentials on all the guys you claim to be bad sources. Like I said before if you want to take it to that we’ll let common sense decide.
-----(find a secular article)…… I’ve brought you enough evidence as far as pictures and people groups. The Jewish people and Christians are pretty much the only ones who care about excavation in Israel. But there are secular people that have become Christians because they can’t find a discrepancy. Examples:
#1. William Ramsay archeologist, who set out to disprove the bible as a young archeologist instead found evidence for it.
#2. Antony Flew, a well known atheist activist, not sure if he is a Christian but I know he no longer can agree with the atheistic belief after coming to his own conclusions.
#3. A.N. Wilson, the 58-year-old British biographer, novelist and man of letters say’s atheists are like “people who have no ear for music or who have never been in love…�

If you look at the structure of Israel, you will find it is run by people who are demoncratically elected, and not based strictly on their religion, nor are the laws based on the Torah and the Talmud. Yes, religion does play a big part in the politics, but you can't go by some persons rhetoric about religion to see if the actual nation is based on religious laws.

----- Maybe not strictly but that’s not my point the point is that it is based in some way on Jewish religion because they abide in Judaism as a Jew and the culture of Judaism is a part of legal and social parts of the society. Here is a couple definitions of Judaism if you still don’t agree.
(Judaism) #1. the monotheistic religion of the Jews, having its ethical, ceremonial, and legal foundation in the precepts of the Old Testament and in the teachings and commentaries of the rabbis as found chiefly in the Talmud.
#2. this religion considered as forming the basis of the cultural and social identity of the Jews: He called assimilation a threat to American Judaism.
---- the people that have discovered things about the old testament and new testament truth have verified their findings by their own intelligence or certified professionals. They don’t just go up to some rock and call it something they find writings and artifacts that signify that the culture was present. I hardly need to explain archeology to you guys do I? If you think that people have lied about their findings don’t you think their would be evidence to support the fact that they have lied by people that made a thourogh investigation into it. I think as an atheist somebody would make an effort to make sure that these claims were for sure inaccurate. But here are some certifications that verified some findings for an example.
Skirball Museum of Biblical Archaeology – lab analysis and such restoration of pottery.
British museum - examining a small clay tablet with a Babylonian cuneiform inscription.
Bible Lands Museum, Jerusalem – artifacts from different cultures from the same time period placed side by side. Determining different cultures by cross examination
……. And on and on and on.

[Megaboomer]

Proverbs 5:3-5: For the lips of an immoral women drip honey and her mouth is smoother than oil; but in the end she is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a two edged sword her feet go down to death her steps lay hold of hell.

First off, this is an inaccurate translation of this passage, which references Sheol, where all the dead alike go, rather than hell. There's no real concept of 'hell' in the Tanakh--that is, what Christians call the Old Testament. (And to this day, Judaism doesn't have the Christian notion of 'hell.')

Secondly, while the Tanakh frowns on prostitution and warns against it, it stops shy of forbidding it. And some important women in the Tanakh have been associated with the trade: the heroine Rahab, for example, seems to have been a prostitute (although some rabbinic traditions insist she was an innkeeper instead. . . but the text implies prostitute.)


(I'm not suggesting the Book of Joshua is literal history, by the way. Just making a point about its story.)

I'm not suggesting that giving lap dances is the same as prostitution--but if prostitution isn't outright forbidden, I see no reason that lapdancing would be.

Now, in my view, this is just an aside. I have no wish to live in a theocracy, and I firmly believe that we must leave consenting adults free to make their own sexual decisions. That said, I don't think we can use this passage of Proverbs as a blanket condemnation of prostitution..

---First of all the NKJ version is from a committee of Hebrew and Greek scholars that spoke these languages.
--All official translations are true to the interpretation of scripture.
---You can’t say that Sheol isn’t the same as hell because according to “The New Bible Dictionary� by J. D. Douglas, M.A., B.D., S.T.M., Ph.D. Sheol is referred to often as the penalty for wickedness for those that descend into it.
The “Abrahams bosom� was the place for waiting for those that died, for the messianic covenant.
---Also saying the orthodox Jews did not forbid harlotry and prostitution is like saying that The US doesn’t forbid murder. Even if there weren’t many sections in scripture defining how women should act, the fact of the matter is they would stone women for adultery, and prostitution is adultery.
---You got to use common sense when deciding is lap dancing right, or is it wrong. For one example ask yourself what is portrayed as the most evil holiday in the USA today. First thing that comes to mind to me is Halloween. Now what are some things associated with Halloween. Candy, murder, costumes, pumpkins, violence, scary things, partying, sexuality….ect.
---also think about the fact that on this day for some reason girls think it’s the best time to dress as slutty as they want and be provocative. Is that right, or wrong, if you think about it you can tell what’s bad for you by what it associates itself with.

[Goat]

---First of all the NKJ version is from a committee of Hebrew and Greek scholars that spoke these languages.
--All official translations are true to the interpretation of scripture.

Really??? Can you prove this? It seems that the key here is 'interpretation'. Interpretation often shows theological bias.

---You can’t say that Sheol isn’t the same as hell because according to “The New Bible Dictionary� by J. D. Douglas, M.A., B.D., S.T.M., Ph.D. Sheol is referred to often as the penalty for wickedness for those that descend into it.

Jrosemary is Jewish, and in the Jewish scriptures, Sheol is the same as 'the grave', if you look at the original Hebrew. I'll take the Rabbi's word about what the Hebrew says.

[Megaboomer]

----In 1604, King James announced that fifty-four Hebrew and Greek scholars had been appointed to translate a new Bible for English speaking people. The number was reduced to forty-seven by the time the work formally began in 1607.

look it up goat, it's fact.

Jrosemary is Jewish, and in the Jewish scriptures, Sheol is the same as 'the grave', if you look at the original Hebrew. I'll take the Rabbi's word about what the Hebrew says.

--- is she a rabbi.? and just because she's Jewish doesn't mean she can't be incorrect in her interpretation. obviously she's not aware that the Hebrew word Sheol refers to the grave as a spiritual place where the souls of the dead go
---- I've already given you the official orthodox Jewish translation from a creditable source but I've also looked in other places and they all refer to a spiritual place for the dead in similarity with hell.

[Goat]

----In 1604, King James announced that fifty-four Hebrew and Greek scholars had been appointed to translate a new Bible for English speaking people. The number was reduced to forty-seven by the time the work formally began in 1607.

look it up goat, it's fact.

Jrosemary is Jewish, and in the Jewish scriptures, Sheol is the same as 'the grave', if you look at the original Hebrew. I'll take the Rabbi's word about what the Hebrew says.

--- is she a rabbi.? and just because she's Jewish doesn't mean she can't be incorrect in her interpretation. obviously she's not aware that the Hebrew word Sheol refers to the grave as a spiritual place where the souls of the dead go
---- I've already given you the official orthodox Jewish translation from a creditable source but I've also looked in other places and they all refer to a spiritual place for the dead in similarity with hell.

Excuse me, but no, you have not. Have you studied any of the commentary? Jrosemary is very educated when it comes to Judaism, and in this case, she is quite correct.

The King James version of the bible is one of the worse translations out there, and trying to appeal to a bad Christian translation is not the same about showing it's the Orthodox Jewish translation.

[Megaboomer]

---allright then goat if your just going to take her word for it that's fine but please refer me to a creditable traslation in a book that states that "Sheol" is only refering to the grave. or a website with this veiw. because alls you've told me is it's according to Jrosemary.
---besides commentary is commentary and it's the view of one individual and hardly an accurate interpretation by itself.

---and just curious but what do you think is the so called " best" translation of the Bible.