Most people I know say if you commit suicide, and are sucessull you go to hell.Is that true? i don't think you'll go to hell if you kill your self.But I think yall should debate soooo
LETS DEBATE!!!!!!!!!!!
SUICIDE?
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rapture101
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Post #31
Believing that someone you are in indirect communication with exists is very different from believing that heaven and hell, of which there is evidence of neither, exist.foshizzle wrote:I'm merely commenting that blatant skepticism and the view of, "if it cannot be implicitly proven by every means, accepting by every person, and shown to me personally, I'm not going to believe it," seems absurd. By the same standard of believability, why should I believe you exist?How do we know anyone in the forum exists? How do we know that existence exists? This kind of radical skepticism can be reduced ad absurdum pretty easily. Let's debate and disagree by all means, but let's at least be kind enough to assume our opponent is a real person and not a figment of our imagination. Who wants to debate a phantom?
I'm not saying you don't, but if I were to take the path of "prove it implicitly", I would have no reason to believe you exist.
It's not proving something beyond a shadow of a doubt, it's proving something is the most likely explanation...
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Dilettante
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Post #32
OK, I understand now. Perhaps we should start another thread on what the criteria are or must be for something to be believable--that is, if such a thread does not exist already, because I think it does. In any case, the focus of this thread is supposed to be a discussion on suicide and whether or not it would land you in hell, assuming hell exists, at least for the sake of argument. It should be possible for people who do not believe in an afterlife to contemplate heaven and hell as hypothetical scenarios for a thought experiment. You're right to point out that it's not enough to just say "heaven and hell don't really exist" because that is irrelevant in this kind of thought experiment. Let's all try to get back to the original topic.foshizzle wrote:I'm merely commenting that blatant skepticism and the view of, "if it cannot be implicitly proven by every means, accepting by every person, and shown to me personally, I'm not going to believe it," seems absurd. By the same standard of believability, why should I believe you exist?How do we know anyone in the forum exists? How do we know that existence exists? This kind of radical skepticism can be reduced ad absurdum pretty easily. Let's debate and disagree by all means, but let's at least be kind enough to assume our opponent is a real person and not a figment of our imagination. Who wants to debate a phantom?
I'm not saying you don't, but if I were to take the path of "prove it implicitly", I would have no reason to believe you exist.
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Regular_Guy
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Post #33
Nice thread I thought this might be related so here goes:)
Something i've always wondered about
After reading the bible (king james version) a while back I always wondered about the death's of judas and jesus.
Judas: Wha he put on earth for the sole purpose to betray jesus?
Matthew 27:5 Reads: And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
The verse is pretty vague (maybe theres more there i just didn't see it).
If Judas had asked for forgiveness would he be allowed into heaven?
And
Jesus's death, was it a suicide? Kinda like a kamikaze with a delayed effect?
Something i've always wondered about
After reading the bible (king james version) a while back I always wondered about the death's of judas and jesus.
Judas: Wha he put on earth for the sole purpose to betray jesus?
Matthew 27:5 Reads: And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
The verse is pretty vague (maybe theres more there i just didn't see it).
If Judas had asked for forgiveness would he be allowed into heaven?
And
Jesus's death, was it a suicide? Kinda like a kamikaze with a delayed effect?
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Dilettante
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Post #34
Actually, the Bible gives two different versions of Judas' death. Matthew 27:5 clearly says he threw the "blood money" back into the temple and committed suicide, while Acts 1:18 says he used that same money to buy some property, where he had a nasty fall and ripped his abdomen open, suggesting his death was accidental. Here are the two versions:
Version 1 (Matthew 27:5):
"And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself."
Version 2 (Acts 1:18 ) :
" Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."
So it seems that tradition is not unanimous about the fate of Judas Iscariot.
But, to address your questions, if Judas was put on earth by God with the explicit purpose of bringing about Jesus' death, then he clearly was not free to choose such a course of action and was therefore not responsible for it. On the other hand, if Judas could have acted otherwise, and if, as many people think, Jesus' death was indispensable to achieve a reconciliation between God and humans, then, it would seem that (ironically) we all owe something to Judas.
I wouldn't say Jesus was suicidal. There is nothing that suggests this: Jesus and his disciples are said to have feasted and drunk wine merrily on many an occasion, hardly a sign of deppression or suicidal tendencies. Besides, if the Gospel account is reliable, Jesus asked God to be spared death on the cross.
Judaism views suicide as one of the gravest sins, so, if Jesus was a good Jew, as he seems to have been, he wouldn't have contemplated suicide.
Version 1 (Matthew 27:5):
"And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself."
Version 2 (Acts 1:18 ) :
" Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."
So it seems that tradition is not unanimous about the fate of Judas Iscariot.
But, to address your questions, if Judas was put on earth by God with the explicit purpose of bringing about Jesus' death, then he clearly was not free to choose such a course of action and was therefore not responsible for it. On the other hand, if Judas could have acted otherwise, and if, as many people think, Jesus' death was indispensable to achieve a reconciliation between God and humans, then, it would seem that (ironically) we all owe something to Judas.
I wouldn't say Jesus was suicidal. There is nothing that suggests this: Jesus and his disciples are said to have feasted and drunk wine merrily on many an occasion, hardly a sign of deppression or suicidal tendencies. Besides, if the Gospel account is reliable, Jesus asked God to be spared death on the cross.
Judaism views suicide as one of the gravest sins, so, if Jesus was a good Jew, as he seems to have been, he wouldn't have contemplated suicide.
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Regular_Guy
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Post #35
Actually, the Bible gives two different versions of Judas' death. Matthew 27:5 clearly says he threw the "blood money" back into the temple and committed suicide, while Acts 1:18 says he used that same money to buy some property, where he had a nasty fall and ripped his abdomen open, suggesting his death was accidental. Here are the two versions:
Version 1 (Matthew 27:5):
"And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself."
Version 2 (Acts 1:18 ) :
" Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."
So it seems that tradition is not unanimous about the fate of Judas Iscariot.
Thats interesting, acts 1:18 is puzzling me. It seems that it is likely talking about Judas, yet Matthew 27:5 already established his death. Im going to get back to you on this one
But, to address your questions, if Judas was put on earth by God with the explicit purpose of bringing about Jesus' death, then he clearly was not free to choose such a course of action and was therefore not responsible for it. On the other hand, if Judas could have acted otherwise, and if, as many people think, Jesus' death was indispensable to achieve a reconciliation between God and humans, then, it would seem that (ironically) we all owe something to Judas.
He's kinda the unsung hero.
I wouldn't say Jesus was suicidal. There is nothing that suggests this: Jesus and his disciples are said to have feasted and drunk wine merrily on many an occasion, hardly a sign of depression or suicidal tendencies. Besides, if the Gospel account is reliable, Jesus asked God to be spared death on the cross.
Judaism views suicide as one of the gravest sins, so, if Jesus was a good Jew, as he seems to have been, he wouldn't have contemplated suicide.
The more and more I think about it I believe what he did was suicide. ***
Take this scenario for example.
Let's say your walking down a street and a little further up ahead is an intersection and you know you will be given a choice to either go right or left.
If you choose right you know nothing will happen and you'll keep walking.
If you choose left you know a group of thugs are waiting to kill you.
***
Suicide is deliberately taking your own life. Once you choose the left (from the scenario) you are deliberately taking your own life.
*Somewhat related* Do you by any chance listen to System of a down?
Ever hear Chop suey?
Version 1 (Matthew 27:5):
"And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself."
Version 2 (Acts 1:18 ) :
" Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."
So it seems that tradition is not unanimous about the fate of Judas Iscariot.
Thats interesting, acts 1:18 is puzzling me. It seems that it is likely talking about Judas, yet Matthew 27:5 already established his death. Im going to get back to you on this one
But, to address your questions, if Judas was put on earth by God with the explicit purpose of bringing about Jesus' death, then he clearly was not free to choose such a course of action and was therefore not responsible for it. On the other hand, if Judas could have acted otherwise, and if, as many people think, Jesus' death was indispensable to achieve a reconciliation between God and humans, then, it would seem that (ironically) we all owe something to Judas.
He's kinda the unsung hero.
I wouldn't say Jesus was suicidal. There is nothing that suggests this: Jesus and his disciples are said to have feasted and drunk wine merrily on many an occasion, hardly a sign of depression or suicidal tendencies. Besides, if the Gospel account is reliable, Jesus asked God to be spared death on the cross.
Judaism views suicide as one of the gravest sins, so, if Jesus was a good Jew, as he seems to have been, he wouldn't have contemplated suicide.
The more and more I think about it I believe what he did was suicide. ***
Take this scenario for example.
Let's say your walking down a street and a little further up ahead is an intersection and you know you will be given a choice to either go right or left.
If you choose right you know nothing will happen and you'll keep walking.
If you choose left you know a group of thugs are waiting to kill you.
***
Suicide is deliberately taking your own life. Once you choose the left (from the scenario) you are deliberately taking your own life.
*Somewhat related* Do you by any chance listen to System of a down?
Ever hear Chop suey?
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Dilettante
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Post #36
OK, let's begin with a definition...
According to French sociologist Emile Durkheim, who studied the issue at length, "the term suicide is applied to all cases of death resulting directly or indirectly from a positive or negative act of the victim himself, which he knows wil produce this result".
We don't know enough about the life of Jesus to affirm that he could have escaped arrest and execution. We might say, however, that Socrates could have escaped his fate by making a full recantation. The Greek democracy would probably have accepted that. But Jesus was not a Roman citizen and there is no guarantee he would have been given a fair trial.
Durkheim distinguished four types of suicide:
1. Egoistic suicide, resulting from too little social integration (unmarried males more likely to commit suicide than married ones)
2. Altruistic suicide, which was the opposite: a result of too much integration (self-sacrificing individuals, soldiers, etc).
3. Anomic suicide, caused by an imbalance of means and needs (means unable to fulfill needs).
4. Fatalistic suicide, "at the high extreme of the regulation continuum" (the cases of people whose lives are overregulated and feel stifled, such as slaves, people in abusive families or totalitarian societies, etc).
I would say he missed "esthetic/narcissistic suicide", as in the case of Japanese writer Yukio Mishima.
"Self-righteous suicide", as in the song you mentioned, is not addressed by Durkheim. I don't know where it would fit. Perhaps you meant to put Jesus in the "altruistic suicide" category.
According to French sociologist Emile Durkheim, who studied the issue at length, "the term suicide is applied to all cases of death resulting directly or indirectly from a positive or negative act of the victim himself, which he knows wil produce this result".
We don't know enough about the life of Jesus to affirm that he could have escaped arrest and execution. We might say, however, that Socrates could have escaped his fate by making a full recantation. The Greek democracy would probably have accepted that. But Jesus was not a Roman citizen and there is no guarantee he would have been given a fair trial.
Durkheim distinguished four types of suicide:
1. Egoistic suicide, resulting from too little social integration (unmarried males more likely to commit suicide than married ones)
2. Altruistic suicide, which was the opposite: a result of too much integration (self-sacrificing individuals, soldiers, etc).
3. Anomic suicide, caused by an imbalance of means and needs (means unable to fulfill needs).
4. Fatalistic suicide, "at the high extreme of the regulation continuum" (the cases of people whose lives are overregulated and feel stifled, such as slaves, people in abusive families or totalitarian societies, etc).
I would say he missed "esthetic/narcissistic suicide", as in the case of Japanese writer Yukio Mishima.
"Self-righteous suicide", as in the song you mentioned, is not addressed by Durkheim. I don't know where it would fit. Perhaps you meant to put Jesus in the "altruistic suicide" category.
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Regular_Guy
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Post #37
OK, let's begin with a definition...
Suicide: the act of killing yourself
According to French sociologist Emile Durkheim, who studied the issue at length, "the term suicide is applied to all cases of death resulting directly or indirectly from a positive or negative act of the victim himself, which he knows wil produce this result".
Durkheim distinguished four types of suicide:
1. Egoistic suicide, resulting from too little social integration (unmarried males more likely to commit suicide than married ones)
2. Altruistic suicide, which was the opposite: a result of too much integration (self-sacrificing individuals, soldiers, etc).
3. Anomic suicide, caused by an imbalance of means and needs (means unable to fulfill needs).
4. Fatalistic suicide, "at the high extreme of the regulation continuum" (the cases of people whose lives are overregulated and feel stifled, such as slaves, people in abusive families or totalitarian societies, etc).
The very definition of suicide is pretty vague.
Although I don't doubt the validity of Durkheims findings i feel as though it lacks somehthing. Something like a few more types.
I would say he missed "esthetic/narcissistic suicide", as in the case of Japanese writer Yukio Mishima.
We don't know enough about the life of Jesus to affirm that he could have escaped arrest and execution.
Don't we? The only kowledge we have of him is from the bible correct?
Depending on what bible you look at it say's he was warned of the consequences would be if he went back to jeruselm(sp) There are even verses that imply he knew what he was doing.
Matthew 26:2 "As you know, the Passover is two days away—and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified."
I remember reading a verse that says God waited patiently while jesus hung on the cross, And all jesus had to do was call to him and he would have been saved.
So if you don't agree of the first account as suicide, how about the second? Kinda like an ill patient refusing medicine that would save his life.
We might say, however, that Socrates could have escaped his fate by making a full recantation. The Greek democracy would probably have accepted that. But Jesus was not a Roman citizen and there is no guarantee he would have been given a fair trial.
Ok
"Self-righteous suicide", as in the song you mentioned, is not addressed by Durkheim. I don't know where it would fit. Perhaps you meant to put Jesus in the "altruistic suicide" category.
I wouldnt list jesus in any of the four types of suicide mentioned by durkheim.
Suicide: the act of killing yourself
According to French sociologist Emile Durkheim, who studied the issue at length, "the term suicide is applied to all cases of death resulting directly or indirectly from a positive or negative act of the victim himself, which he knows wil produce this result".
Durkheim distinguished four types of suicide:
1. Egoistic suicide, resulting from too little social integration (unmarried males more likely to commit suicide than married ones)
2. Altruistic suicide, which was the opposite: a result of too much integration (self-sacrificing individuals, soldiers, etc).
3. Anomic suicide, caused by an imbalance of means and needs (means unable to fulfill needs).
4. Fatalistic suicide, "at the high extreme of the regulation continuum" (the cases of people whose lives are overregulated and feel stifled, such as slaves, people in abusive families or totalitarian societies, etc).
The very definition of suicide is pretty vague.
Although I don't doubt the validity of Durkheims findings i feel as though it lacks somehthing. Something like a few more types.
I would say he missed "esthetic/narcissistic suicide", as in the case of Japanese writer Yukio Mishima.
We don't know enough about the life of Jesus to affirm that he could have escaped arrest and execution.
Don't we? The only kowledge we have of him is from the bible correct?
Depending on what bible you look at it say's he was warned of the consequences would be if he went back to jeruselm(sp) There are even verses that imply he knew what he was doing.
Matthew 26:2 "As you know, the Passover is two days away—and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified."
I remember reading a verse that says God waited patiently while jesus hung on the cross, And all jesus had to do was call to him and he would have been saved.
So if you don't agree of the first account as suicide, how about the second? Kinda like an ill patient refusing medicine that would save his life.
We might say, however, that Socrates could have escaped his fate by making a full recantation. The Greek democracy would probably have accepted that. But Jesus was not a Roman citizen and there is no guarantee he would have been given a fair trial.
Ok
"Self-righteous suicide", as in the song you mentioned, is not addressed by Durkheim. I don't know where it would fit. Perhaps you meant to put Jesus in the "altruistic suicide" category.
I wouldnt list jesus in any of the four types of suicide mentioned by durkheim.
Post #38
There is a modern term called "suicide by cop" in which the perpetrator does something the he knows will provoke the authorities into using deadly force. The perpetrator wishes to die, but does not wish to "pull the trigger" himself for some deeper psychological reason. It could be for any of the four types you mention -- it describes a means rather than a reason, but would seem to fit.Dilettante wrote:OK, let's begin with a definition...
According to French sociologist Emile Durkheim, who studied the issue at length, "the term suicide is applied to all cases of death resulting directly or indirectly from a positive or negative act of the victim himself, which he knows wil produce this result".
