Well, just want to see if anyone is interested why Islam is right.
canadianhorsefan
Islam
Moderator: Moderators
Post #111
Errgh, agreeing with Bernee is somewhat frustrating but. . .
"unless religions are recognized globally for what their purpose is for the majority - to give meaning and legitimacy to existence faced with the trials of that existence. Nothing more nothing less.
There are those who, in all traditions, have (and will) use their particular belief system as a mode of transcendence and come to understand the fundamental relationship beteween man and 'god'
/ / /
Not bad. Religions truly screw things up.
But Judaism is to the beliefs of the Israelites what Christianty is to what Jesus is and what He set in motion. He never started a "religion." Upon the solid declaration of Peter what Jesus was found its fact. Not a building with an address.
Islam is even more askew than the off-topic wanderings of Jews and Christians.
Islamists and Jesus of Nazareth travel different paths. Jesus believed the Bible literally. Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac. Isaac fathered Jacob whom God called Israel. Jesus is the king of the Jews (Israel).
Jesus was God dwelling in His humanity. Look at the festival of Sukkot. A dwelling is made for God. Absurd unless it points to something. The Passover? A plate for Elijah? So he really is coming back. For what purpose? And Pentecost? Shavuot. The Spirit of God descending on His people.
Jesus never meant a belief system or "religion" to supercede what the Israelites followed. Islam cannot supercede something it does not validate.
Paul said it best about non-resurrectionists. "If Christ be not raised than are faith is in vain."
And God said let us man after our image after our likeness. Is God manlike? Maybe not to Muslims but certainly to Jews and Christians.
Jacob wrestled with a man until daybreak. Jacob said it was God. No Jacob no Israel. Mohammad knew that.
Until Moses Maimonides (the Rambam) anthropormophic statements in the Bible meant just what was written. Modern (Reform) Judaism follows a lot of Maimonides teachings.
Remember that Jesus taught the "Old Testament" stories as facts. Noah, Jonah and Abraham.
"unless religions are recognized globally for what their purpose is for the majority - to give meaning and legitimacy to existence faced with the trials of that existence. Nothing more nothing less.
There are those who, in all traditions, have (and will) use their particular belief system as a mode of transcendence and come to understand the fundamental relationship beteween man and 'god'
/ / /
Not bad. Religions truly screw things up.
But Judaism is to the beliefs of the Israelites what Christianty is to what Jesus is and what He set in motion. He never started a "religion." Upon the solid declaration of Peter what Jesus was found its fact. Not a building with an address.
Islam is even more askew than the off-topic wanderings of Jews and Christians.
Islamists and Jesus of Nazareth travel different paths. Jesus believed the Bible literally. Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac. Isaac fathered Jacob whom God called Israel. Jesus is the king of the Jews (Israel).
Jesus was God dwelling in His humanity. Look at the festival of Sukkot. A dwelling is made for God. Absurd unless it points to something. The Passover? A plate for Elijah? So he really is coming back. For what purpose? And Pentecost? Shavuot. The Spirit of God descending on His people.
Jesus never meant a belief system or "religion" to supercede what the Israelites followed. Islam cannot supercede something it does not validate.
Paul said it best about non-resurrectionists. "If Christ be not raised than are faith is in vain."
And God said let us man after our image after our likeness. Is God manlike? Maybe not to Muslims but certainly to Jews and Christians.
Jacob wrestled with a man until daybreak. Jacob said it was God. No Jacob no Israel. Mohammad knew that.
Until Moses Maimonides (the Rambam) anthropormophic statements in the Bible meant just what was written. Modern (Reform) Judaism follows a lot of Maimonides teachings.
Remember that Jesus taught the "Old Testament" stories as facts. Noah, Jonah and Abraham.
Post #112
"AlAyeti" wrote:
Islam is even more askew than the off-topic wanderings of Jews and Christians.
Islamists and Jesus of Nazareth travel different paths. Jesus believed the Bible literally. Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac. Isaac fathered Jacob whom God called Israel. Jesus is the king of the Jews (Israel).
My reply:
I really don't myself see it that way as the Qur'an specifically refers to the Gospel and Torah as it says in Surih 5:51
"To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, conforming the scripture that came before it and guarding it in safety... (later in the same verse)... To each among you have we prescribed a Law and an Open Way..."
So it seems that the revelation of Qur'an recognizes the previous revelations of Gospel and Torah.
Also while stories of the Bible are also found in the Qur'an and approached from varying perspectives they tend more I think to supplement them.
Islam is even more askew than the off-topic wanderings of Jews and Christians.
Islamists and Jesus of Nazareth travel different paths. Jesus believed the Bible literally. Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac. Isaac fathered Jacob whom God called Israel. Jesus is the king of the Jews (Israel).
My reply:
I really don't myself see it that way as the Qur'an specifically refers to the Gospel and Torah as it says in Surih 5:51
"To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, conforming the scripture that came before it and guarding it in safety... (later in the same verse)... To each among you have we prescribed a Law and an Open Way..."
So it seems that the revelation of Qur'an recognizes the previous revelations of Gospel and Torah.
Also while stories of the Bible are also found in the Qur'an and approached from varying perspectives they tend more I think to supplement them.
Post #113
Supplement?
America fought the British for independence. Saying or writing that it won its independence over the Tahitians or the Swedes is not supplementing American history. It is misrepresenting the truth of history. If done out of a mistake so be it. If done on purpose than we have another situation.
Islam emphatically asserts that Abraham attempted to sacrifice "Ishmael." It emphatically states that Jesus was "not" crucified.
That eliminates a connection to the peoples of the Book. In fact the Bible is many books compiled over a very long time period.
Jesus did not supercede "the Law" (Torah) or the Prophets. He fulfilled the Law and the Prophets (of the Bible). As the Son of God, He didn't supercede The Father, or the Holy Spirit. 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.
The Gospel of John makes clear that Jesus and His followers are not joined to anything that comes along after the Ascension.
John (Yohannon) was an Israelite.
Islam can state that it is the truth. It has that right. But it cannot state that the Bible, Old and New Testament is the truth also. They "emphatically" say different things in regards to Islam.
The New Testament cannot exist without the Old Testament (Tanakh to Jews) it cannot change words for any reason. It interprets the words as they are written to show how well they fit Jesus.
Big difference to the Koran (Qu'Ran).
America fought the British for independence. Saying or writing that it won its independence over the Tahitians or the Swedes is not supplementing American history. It is misrepresenting the truth of history. If done out of a mistake so be it. If done on purpose than we have another situation.
Islam emphatically asserts that Abraham attempted to sacrifice "Ishmael." It emphatically states that Jesus was "not" crucified.
That eliminates a connection to the peoples of the Book. In fact the Bible is many books compiled over a very long time period.
Jesus did not supercede "the Law" (Torah) or the Prophets. He fulfilled the Law and the Prophets (of the Bible). As the Son of God, He didn't supercede The Father, or the Holy Spirit. 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.
The Gospel of John makes clear that Jesus and His followers are not joined to anything that comes along after the Ascension.
John (Yohannon) was an Israelite.
Islam can state that it is the truth. It has that right. But it cannot state that the Bible, Old and New Testament is the truth also. They "emphatically" say different things in regards to Islam.
The New Testament cannot exist without the Old Testament (Tanakh to Jews) it cannot change words for any reason. It interprets the words as they are written to show how well they fit Jesus.
Big difference to the Koran (Qu'Ran).
Post #114
"AlAyeti" wrote:
Islam emphatically asserts that Abraham attempted to sacrifice "Ishmael." It emphatically states that Jesus was "not" crucified.
My reply:
What is popularly believed is not always so.
If you read the Surih 37:100 -107 it does not emphatically say Ishmael was sacrificed though some believe it so.... and in reference to Jesus crucifixion it says in 4:157 "so it was made to appear to them..." so it is not an emphatic denial that the crucifixion did not take place what it says is that they boasted "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah" but they killed Him not, nor crucified Him...in a related verse in Surih 2:154 it says martyrs are not dead: "And say not of those who are slain in the Way of Allah: "They are dead" Nay, they are living, though ye perceive it not." So in the case of Christ the Qur'an does not say that the crucifixion did not occur. It says "Nay Allah raised Him up unto Himself..." in Surih 4:158. A. Yusuf Ali's translation was used here.
If people look for them there are areas of agree ment between the Bible and the Qur'an. We can also simply rely on popular beliefs and assumptions as well as prejudices that have been around for centuries. The choice is indeed ours to make.
Islam emphatically asserts that Abraham attempted to sacrifice "Ishmael." It emphatically states that Jesus was "not" crucified.
My reply:
What is popularly believed is not always so.
If you read the Surih 37:100 -107 it does not emphatically say Ishmael was sacrificed though some believe it so.... and in reference to Jesus crucifixion it says in 4:157 "so it was made to appear to them..." so it is not an emphatic denial that the crucifixion did not take place what it says is that they boasted "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah" but they killed Him not, nor crucified Him...in a related verse in Surih 2:154 it says martyrs are not dead: "And say not of those who are slain in the Way of Allah: "They are dead" Nay, they are living, though ye perceive it not." So in the case of Christ the Qur'an does not say that the crucifixion did not occur. It says "Nay Allah raised Him up unto Himself..." in Surih 4:158. A. Yusuf Ali's translation was used here.
If people look for them there are areas of agree ment between the Bible and the Qur'an. We can also simply rely on popular beliefs and assumptions as well as prejudices that have been around for centuries. The choice is indeed ours to make.
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unprofitable servant
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- Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:10 am
Islam
Post #115[Arthra wrote]If people look for them there are areas of agree ment between the Bible and the Qur'an. We can also simply rely on popular beliefs and assumptions as well as prejudices that have been around for centuries. The choice is indeed ours to make.[/quote]
I am in agreement with this.
Being one who was taught that Islam is a false religion and Allah is a false god I tended to go with the 'assumptions'. But now after reading the Quran I find that there are many things that are similiar to scripture.
Jesus(Issa) told us "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment" jn7:24
Would a false god say to his servants 'Say(O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes and that which Moses and Jesus received and that which the Prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them and unto Him we have surrendered" surah 2:136 or
"O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His messenger and the Scripture which He hath revealed unto His messenger and the Scripture which He revealed aforetime. Whoso disbelieveth inAllah and His angels and His Scriptures and His messengers and the Last Day, he verily hath wandered far astray" surah 4:136 Pickthall
But would rather lead us away from using the 'Scriptures that were revealed aforetime?'
Christianity today speaks mostly about the loving kindness of the Almighty God and in doing this His wrath, which will come upon the whole earth, is not remembered. When you go back to the Torah and the prophets God tells us that He "will plead with all flesh" and the Quran is giving us this perspective.
Compare the things recited to the things in the scriptures you will see similairities between them
I am in agreement with this.
Being one who was taught that Islam is a false religion and Allah is a false god I tended to go with the 'assumptions'. But now after reading the Quran I find that there are many things that are similiar to scripture.
Jesus(Issa) told us "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment" jn7:24
Would a false god say to his servants 'Say(O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes and that which Moses and Jesus received and that which the Prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them and unto Him we have surrendered" surah 2:136 or
"O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His messenger and the Scripture which He hath revealed unto His messenger and the Scripture which He revealed aforetime. Whoso disbelieveth inAllah and His angels and His Scriptures and His messengers and the Last Day, he verily hath wandered far astray" surah 4:136 Pickthall
But would rather lead us away from using the 'Scriptures that were revealed aforetime?'
Christianity today speaks mostly about the loving kindness of the Almighty God and in doing this His wrath, which will come upon the whole earth, is not remembered. When you go back to the Torah and the prophets God tells us that He "will plead with all flesh" and the Quran is giving us this perspective.
Compare the things recited to the things in the scriptures you will see similairities between them
Post #116
With that kind of thought process than Joseph Smith and Mormonism superceded Islam. Josesph came after Mohammed. And we await the next new Prophet with a dream to write a new religion into being.
You cannot simply wipe away facts because they do "appear" to look the same. Jesus was crucified in The New Testament Gospels. He said so. He was not crucified in the Koran. The Jesus in the Koran is someone who does not tell the truth.
Abraham attempted to sacrifice Isaac NOT Ishmael. That alone dooms the togetherness of jew and Muslim. You cannot have two different revelations from God saying different things.
Believe what you want to but the Bible and the Qu' Ran have nothing to hold them together.
Mohammad was simply wrong.
Smith of Mormonism claimed the same justification for his new program, that the Christians before him got it all wrong.
You cannot simply wipe away facts because they do "appear" to look the same. Jesus was crucified in The New Testament Gospels. He said so. He was not crucified in the Koran. The Jesus in the Koran is someone who does not tell the truth.
Abraham attempted to sacrifice Isaac NOT Ishmael. That alone dooms the togetherness of jew and Muslim. You cannot have two different revelations from God saying different things.
Believe what you want to but the Bible and the Qu' Ran have nothing to hold them together.
Mohammad was simply wrong.
Smith of Mormonism claimed the same justification for his new program, that the Christians before him got it all wrong.
Post #117
"AlAyeti" wrote:
With that kind of thought process than Joseph Smith and Mormonism superceded Islam. Josesph came after Mohammed. And we await the next new Prophet with a dream to write a new religion into being.
My reply:
Frankly, I really think bringing Mormonism into the discussion is kind of extraneous to the main issue which is on the topic of Islam and Mormons would probably want to discuss the issue with you in a topic clearly for that purpose.
"AlAyeti" wrote:
You cannot simply wipe away facts because they do "appear" to look the same. Jesus was crucified in The New Testament Gospels. He said so. He was not crucified in the Koran. The Jesus in the Koran is someone who does not tell the truth.
My reply:
Well after citing the Qur'anic references you can still disagree with them and you have that right. We disagree on this but I'm thinking that there is some hostility behind your remark:
"The Jesus in the Koran is someone who does not tell the truth." Why interject this pronouncement?
"AlAyeti" wrote:
Abraham attempted to sacrifice Isaac NOT Ishmael. That alone dooms the togetherness of jew and Muslim. You cannot have two different revelations from God saying different things.
My reply:
I'm hearing that you disagree but as I pointed out above the Qur'an does not emphatically say it was Ishmael. Although most believe that. I think Moslems and Jews could be encouraged to discuss these issues.
"AlAyeti" wrote:
Believe what you want to but the Bible and the Qu' Ran have nothing to hold them together.
My reply:
And likewise I suppose...but why do you use the spelling "Qu' Ran" rather than the accepted transliterated "Qur'an"? what's behind that?
"AlAyeti" wrote:
Mohammad was simply wrong.
My reply:
I'm reading your conclusion but haven't seen any reasoning yet for this as yet.
"AlAyeti" wrote:
Smith of Mormonism claimed the same justification for his new program, that the Christians before him got it all wrong.
My reply:
I really doubt that bringing in Mormonism adds anything here... It's not the topic we've been discussing. But I'll acknowledge you disagree.
- Art
With that kind of thought process than Joseph Smith and Mormonism superceded Islam. Josesph came after Mohammed. And we await the next new Prophet with a dream to write a new religion into being.
My reply:
Frankly, I really think bringing Mormonism into the discussion is kind of extraneous to the main issue which is on the topic of Islam and Mormons would probably want to discuss the issue with you in a topic clearly for that purpose.
"AlAyeti" wrote:
You cannot simply wipe away facts because they do "appear" to look the same. Jesus was crucified in The New Testament Gospels. He said so. He was not crucified in the Koran. The Jesus in the Koran is someone who does not tell the truth.
My reply:
Well after citing the Qur'anic references you can still disagree with them and you have that right. We disagree on this but I'm thinking that there is some hostility behind your remark:
"The Jesus in the Koran is someone who does not tell the truth." Why interject this pronouncement?
"AlAyeti" wrote:
Abraham attempted to sacrifice Isaac NOT Ishmael. That alone dooms the togetherness of jew and Muslim. You cannot have two different revelations from God saying different things.
My reply:
I'm hearing that you disagree but as I pointed out above the Qur'an does not emphatically say it was Ishmael. Although most believe that. I think Moslems and Jews could be encouraged to discuss these issues.
"AlAyeti" wrote:
Believe what you want to but the Bible and the Qu' Ran have nothing to hold them together.
My reply:
And likewise I suppose...but why do you use the spelling "Qu' Ran" rather than the accepted transliterated "Qur'an"? what's behind that?
"AlAyeti" wrote:
Mohammad was simply wrong.
My reply:
I'm reading your conclusion but haven't seen any reasoning yet for this as yet.
"AlAyeti" wrote:
Smith of Mormonism claimed the same justification for his new program, that the Christians before him got it all wrong.
My reply:
I really doubt that bringing in Mormonism adds anything here... It's not the topic we've been discussing. But I'll acknowledge you disagree.
- Art
Post #118
My apology on Qur' an.
How did I get that wrong?
I have no hostility please don't go there.
That Ishmael was the sacrifice in Islam is not debateable.
That The Koran and the Bible do not agree with each other's history is not debateable.
Why people want to choose Islam over Biblical beliefs is debateable.
Mohammad was simply wrong because the Bible (OT & NT) and the Koran can be compared side by side. That is not sound reasoning?
Jesus did not change anything of the Tanakh (The Old Testament). The Koran changed both Jesus and the Old Testament.
The only place that Islam finds credibilty is saying that the Jews and Christians were and are wrong. Somehow. Fair but I then have a choice to make as an individual. So if I have any concern about Islam it is that Islamic societies do not allow choice. If I am hostile to anything it is the hostility towards free speech and freedom of choice we easily see in any "Muslim" country. Any Christian concerts going on anytime soon in Saudi Arabia or Indonesia?
So it is only fair to say the same thing towards Islam, that Islam says about Christians and Jews. Where did Mohammad get his reasons for alterations? Gabriel?
That is why I compared Islam to Mormonism. If an angel can enter into history whenever they want to and change already recorded facts, then the world is awaiting its newest monotheistic religion at any moment. And it doesn't even take an angel to bring us the newest real religion.
Dianetics anyone?
How did I get that wrong?
I have no hostility please don't go there.
That Ishmael was the sacrifice in Islam is not debateable.
That The Koran and the Bible do not agree with each other's history is not debateable.
Why people want to choose Islam over Biblical beliefs is debateable.
Mohammad was simply wrong because the Bible (OT & NT) and the Koran can be compared side by side. That is not sound reasoning?
Jesus did not change anything of the Tanakh (The Old Testament). The Koran changed both Jesus and the Old Testament.
The only place that Islam finds credibilty is saying that the Jews and Christians were and are wrong. Somehow. Fair but I then have a choice to make as an individual. So if I have any concern about Islam it is that Islamic societies do not allow choice. If I am hostile to anything it is the hostility towards free speech and freedom of choice we easily see in any "Muslim" country. Any Christian concerts going on anytime soon in Saudi Arabia or Indonesia?
So it is only fair to say the same thing towards Islam, that Islam says about Christians and Jews. Where did Mohammad get his reasons for alterations? Gabriel?
That is why I compared Islam to Mormonism. If an angel can enter into history whenever they want to and change already recorded facts, then the world is awaiting its newest monotheistic religion at any moment. And it doesn't even take an angel to bring us the newest real religion.
Dianetics anyone?
-
unprofitable servant
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- Posts: 145
- Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:10 am
Islam
Post #119That The Koran and the Bible do not agree with each other's history is not debateable.
And how do you come to this conclusion?
And this is proof of further misunderstanding. Mohammad recited he was as it is recited 'You are only a messenger'Mohammad was simply wrong because the Bible (OT & NT) and the Koran can be compared side by side. That is not sound reasoning?
Also have you read what the recitings say about Moses and Abraham and Noah. These are not written in the bible.
Jesus did not change anything of the Tanakh (The Old Testament). The Koran changed both Jesus and the Old Testament.
Why because it is recited that Jesus had surrendered to God?
Didn't Jesus say 'I speak nothing of Myself, but He that sent me commanded me what I should say"
