Mormonism
Moderator: Moderators
Mormonism
Post #21I honestly hope that you will seek God in the Bible, compare Mormonism to it, not rely on your subjective feelings, and test Mormonism against the facts. Eternity is a long time to be wrong.
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 
Post #22
Thank you for your concern. Your message has been recieved, and I send it strait back to you. I hope we can agree on the same facts. In the meen time please pray for me and my brotheren that are dwindeling in misguided faith... 
I'm sorry for what this thread is turning into, and I hope we can keep it a descent discussion. Not a bashing brawl of opinions.
Please... Please, make sure to read through all the material provided on this thread, as some of the posting is neglecting to take into acount all that has been said...
(sigh)
I'm sorry for what this thread is turning into, and I hope we can keep it a descent discussion. Not a bashing brawl of opinions.
Please... Please, make sure to read through all the material provided on this thread, as some of the posting is neglecting to take into acount all that has been said...
(sigh)
-
Dilettante
- Sage
- Posts: 964
- Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 7:08 pm
- Location: Spain
Post #23
I know that most Book of Mormon believers also believe Joseph Smith was a prophet. But I find more than enough evidence in the BOM itself to believe that Smith was not a prophet. On the very first page it says that the Native Americans are descended from ancient Hebrews. Had Joseph Smith been a divinely inspired prophet, surely God would have corrected such an embarrassing anthropological error!Dilettante: To begin with, Joseph Smith never translated a single line in his life. He could not translate ancient documents or even tell authentic ones from crude forgeries
Tycho23: You're forgetting that most of the people that believe in the Book of Mormon, most likely believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God...
I doubt Moses got any practice doing miracles before he did all the great things he did.
(Hold on Pharaoh, this might not turn out how I want it. Let me go and hide behind this tent while I practice turning water into blood...)
Who says miracles can't happen today... If they can't, how gypped are we?
As for miracles, I won't categorically deny the possibility, but I don't think any miracles have ever been sufficiently proven. More importantly, I don't think we need to resort to miraculous explanations for something which is within a man's power to achieve, namely writing something like the Book of Mormon. Other rich mythologies have been created by men. We need not look any further than J.R.R. Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings" trilogy or George Lucas's "Star Wars" series to find perfect examples of this.
Ancient English is not the original language of the Bible, and the King James Version is not necessarily the most correct translation--it's not even the first English translation. I'm sure later translators made an effort not to leave out any important shades of meaning. But if you don't trust translators, the best thing you can do is learn ancient Hebrew and Greek to read the Bible in the original. That's the only way you can be sure not to miss anything just because someone tried to make the Bible easier for English speakers!Dilettante:
the King James Bible, beautiful as it is, is probably not the best for present day readers.
Tycho23: If you're saying this because of the differences of the english used in this bible to the english used in the present day: I disagree. I think you need the ancient english in there in order to get all the necessary meanings behind the doctrine. It would be a shame if you missed something just because someone was just trying to make the bible easier to 'understand'.
Your "point and line" explanation also works for the Bible and the Koran, the Bible and the Summa Theologica (as in Catholicism), the Bible and the Urantia Book, the Bible and (fill the blank) etc. You have not given us a reason why the Book of Mormon should be the key to reading the Bible, and not any other book.However, if you have read the Book of Mormon and then choose to read the Bible, then you're bound to interpret it differently with your newfound knowledge. Your new interpretation most likely will be in alignment with the Book of Mormon (refer back to the 'point and line' example in the question to number three).
However, no one ever told me not to read the Book of Mormon. I grew up as a post-2nd Vatican Council Catholic, after the "Index of Forbidden Books" had been abolished. Believe it or not, as an adolescent I was encouraged by RC priests to read the "enemy" (Voltaire, Marx, Feuerbach, etc). No Mormon I know is encouraged to do the same.Trust me, I know what you mean by 'knowing what your opponent has to say'. But then again, other religions say the exact same thing about the Book of Mormon: 'Don't read it. if you do, you risk being corrupted and doomed!'. Our church leaders only say this about anti-mormon literature as to emphasize the same precautions.
Post #24
On the very first page of the bible, it says that the Earth was created in less than a week. Had Moses been a divinely inspired prophet, surely God would have corrected such an embarrassing time-tabled error!...On the very first page it says that the Native Americans are descended from ancient Hebrews. Had Joseph Smith been a divinely inspired prophet, surely God would have corrected such an embarrassing anthropological error!
Please return to the post provided earliear about what Mormon's stance on the Bible is, and how they 'claim' to have the most accurate version.and the King James Version is not necessarily the most correct translation--it's not even the first English translation
Joseph Smith once said, "The Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book that has ever been written...".You have not given us a reason why the Book of Mormon should be the key to reading the Bible, and not any other book.
As the Mormon's believe, the word of a prophet of God cannot be pushed aside as an overstatement or under... The word of a prophet is the word of God.
Yet, how would an unbeliever know Joseph Smith was a prophet? Remember, all Faith is blind... You have to take that risk with every religion, just determine which religion has the least biggest risk. (if you ask me, that would be athiesm
)I didn't mean to say that every religion banns the Book of Mormon... I'm sure that there are some out there that meticulously pore over its pages with it's youth in an attemp to 'expose' every possible falicy. Then again, I'm sure there are some out there that just 'read' the Book of Mormon for the heck of it. However, for Mormons and anti-litterature: the youth are not asked not to read anti-litt because some of them may not be firmly rooted in their testimony. Once you feel comfortable with your standing of the church, then you are can verture outward for your own research... (it's a personal descission).No Mormon I know is encouraged to do the same. (Read anti-(religion) literature)
-
Dilettante
- Sage
- Posts: 964
- Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 7:08 pm
- Location: Spain
Post #25
Tycho23 wrote:
You have not provided us with a good reason to think that Joseph Smith's interpretation of the Bible is superior to others and you have not explained why the English King James Version is to be considered the Bible par excellence. Why must I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet? I don't need to "take the risk with every religion", and atheism is not a religion.
Hmm... perhaps I haven't explained myself clearly enough. First, Moses did not write Genesis (maybe he did not write any of the books attributed to him and maybe he is just a fictional character). Second, Christian theologians like Augustine (354-430) understood the six-day creation story as metaphorical, not literal (is that how you read the Book of Mormon?). And third, I never said I considered the Bible to be inerrant. On the contrary, I see Genesis as an epic narration containing many beautiful myths, not as a factual report of the origin of the universe.On the very first page of the bible, it says that the Earth was created in less than a week. Had Moses been a divinely inspired prophet, surely God would have corrected such an embarrassing time-tabled error!...
You have not provided us with a good reason to think that Joseph Smith's interpretation of the Bible is superior to others and you have not explained why the English King James Version is to be considered the Bible par excellence. Why must I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet? I don't need to "take the risk with every religion", and atheism is not a religion.
The problem is that, in my experience, once Mormons are "firmly rooted in their testimony" they feel uncomfortable with any book which questions their beliefs. So perhaps it's the young who should venture outward after all...I didn't mean to say that every religion banns the Book of Mormon... I'm sure that there are some out there that meticulously pore over its pages with it's youth in an attemp to 'expose' every possible falicy. Then again, I'm sure there are some out there that just 'read' the Book of Mormon for the heck of it. However, for Mormons and anti-litterature: the youth are not asked not to read anti-litt because some of them may not be firmly rooted in their testimony. Once you feel comfortable with your standing of the church, then you are can verture outward for your own research... (it's a personal descission).
Post #26
sorry back to the Bible and the Book of Mormon and Mormon Doctrines
the Bible and the Book of Mormon are different, Period!
heres some questions if you believe this what ive read from different Mormon sites
M=Mormons C=Christians
M believe that there are many gods. C believe that there is only One God
M believe that God was once a man and that he progressed into manhood. C believe that God is not a man.
M believe that God became God after pursuing Godhood and is still increasing in knowledge. C believe that God has alwasy existed.
M believe that God has a wife thru whom he procreates spirit children. C believe that God did not procreate children and did not have a Mother God.
M believe that God would stop being God if intelligences stipped supporting him as God. C believe that God is unchanging and omnipotent.
M believe that man was in the begining with God. C believe that man is a finite being not eternal therfore could not be with God at the begining
M believe that Adam and Eves fall at the garden of Eden was a good thing allowing eternal life to be opened up to us. C believe that becaues of Adam and Eve we now have to suffer.
M believe that Christs death canceled the penalty of death on all men. C believe that not everyone is blessed thru Christs death but only those who accept him.
the list goes on and on i just dont want to type till my fingers bleed and there IS scriptiul back up on that if you need it!
and now for some Mormon Doctrine vs. Book of Mormon
MD=Mormon Doctrine BM=Book of Mormon
BM states that there is only one God. MD states that there are many gods
BM states taht the Trinity is one God. MD states the teh Trinity is 3 seperate gods
BM states taht God is unchanging. MD states that God is increasing in knoledge.
BM states that God is a spirit. MD states that God has the form of man.
BM states that hell is eternal. MD states that hell is not eternal.
BM condems polygamy. MD encourages polygamy.
i even have bonified Book of Mormon scriptures to back that up!
so seeing the differances what are you going to do with these? i challenge you to actually research, yourself! that means no teachers parents or friends just you take the Bible and the Book of Mormon and the other Mormon scriptures and take the Mormon Doctrine and see what happens
the Bible and the Book of Mormon are different, Period!
heres some questions if you believe this what ive read from different Mormon sites
M=Mormons C=Christians
M believe that there are many gods. C believe that there is only One God
M believe that God was once a man and that he progressed into manhood. C believe that God is not a man.
M believe that God became God after pursuing Godhood and is still increasing in knowledge. C believe that God has alwasy existed.
M believe that God has a wife thru whom he procreates spirit children. C believe that God did not procreate children and did not have a Mother God.
M believe that God would stop being God if intelligences stipped supporting him as God. C believe that God is unchanging and omnipotent.
M believe that man was in the begining with God. C believe that man is a finite being not eternal therfore could not be with God at the begining
M believe that Adam and Eves fall at the garden of Eden was a good thing allowing eternal life to be opened up to us. C believe that becaues of Adam and Eve we now have to suffer.
M believe that Christs death canceled the penalty of death on all men. C believe that not everyone is blessed thru Christs death but only those who accept him.
the list goes on and on i just dont want to type till my fingers bleed
and there IS scriptiul back up on that if you need it!and now for some Mormon Doctrine vs. Book of Mormon
MD=Mormon Doctrine BM=Book of Mormon
BM states that there is only one God. MD states that there are many gods
BM states taht the Trinity is one God. MD states the teh Trinity is 3 seperate gods
BM states taht God is unchanging. MD states that God is increasing in knoledge.
BM states that God is a spirit. MD states that God has the form of man.
BM states that hell is eternal. MD states that hell is not eternal.
BM condems polygamy. MD encourages polygamy.
i even have bonified Book of Mormon scriptures to back that up!
so seeing the differances what are you going to do with these? i challenge you to actually research, yourself! that means no teachers parents or friends just you take the Bible and the Book of Mormon and the other Mormon scriptures and take the Mormon Doctrine and see what happens
Defying Gravity
Post #27
From the moment I came home from school, wondered how the discussion was going, and sat down in front of my computer to when this message is was posted, I have spoken with no one at all. (that was for you em200727)
Post #28
OK...
I have not left my seat or spoken to anyone else since I got home, read your people's replies, and posted this message. (for you em200727 )
for Dilettante:
I'm sorry, but for any referances that orriginate after all the original apostles of Christ were killed off, I won't be going for. I believe in the great apostasy as mentioned in Thesalonians 2: 1-3. I believe it happened from the time in which the apostles were killed to the time at which Joseph Smith saw the first vision, as mentioned in Revelations 14: 6-7 (angel Moroni).
I'm sorry, Moses writing the book of Genesis was aparently pulled from the back of my recolection. Who wrote Genesis after all?
There may be a large amount of metaphorical, not literal, content in the bible, and the creation of Earth in six days may be one of them, but I hope you don't consider the immpossible feat of stuffing two of every species of animal into a large wooden boat to be metaphorical...
Joseph Smith, using revelation from God, proof read the King James version of the bible and made any nesesary corrections in an attempt to return its text back as close as possible to its orriginal meaning.
With every belief you have, a risk must be taken (sorry for ill choice of wording). A risk that you might be wrong and others are right as opposed too: you and God being right, and everyone else being wrong.
And lastly, the anti-litterature aproach is marely a personal decission (almost everything is in the Mormon church: but you must be held accountable for your actions). I myself (16) have chosen to read several different things denouncing mormonism.
For em200727:
The Mormon belief of many Gods is marely speculation and not pure doctrine... It comes from the belief that we all can strive to become God like beings in the afterlife after proving ourselves worthy so that we may further develope spiritualy (see Tycho23's last post of the 'will vs. Hell' in the philosophy area). The speculation that God was once a man and worked his way up to Godhood is also comes from this belief. However, this speculation has no bearing on our lives whatsoever... If God was a normal man durring some period of his existance (which is all eternity), then that period existed before this universe was created. Therefore, that knowledge cannot possible influence the plan of salvation. You may care to dissagree, but God's existance before he created the univerxe does not matter for his children (us). The belief of many Gods has no bearing in this way as well. The speculation that there were other normal men/women that grew to become gods/goddeses has no consequence on us in of that they do not exist inside this universe. They have their own universes in which they can rule, not in God's universe. God is the master of this universe. Since they did not create this universe there is no reason or cause to worship these speculated gods. They have no bearing on us whatsoever, so they might as well not exist. Yet all of this is complete speculation on the part of those that feel they know what they are talking about.
We believe that God is completly all-knowing. He knows what is happening in the middle of the Earth, he knows what an atom looks like, he knows how to make people fly, and he knows every thought and secret that you try to hide within your heart. He is your heavenly father.
He created all things. There is no beggining or end to God, nor to any of us. Just like God's spirit, there is no beggining for ourspirits and there is no end.
(Speculation) We believe that our spirits are immortal entities that were created through the union of our Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. If we were to be created by just one being, it would go aginst everything that the bible teaches us about procreation and parenting. The reason that there is no mention of our Heavenly Mother, is God so loved his wife that he could not bear to have her subject to the same pain and aggony that God endures everytime one of his children rejects him. In time, we will all, hopefully, reunite with our Heavenly Mother.
As for God to stop being God just because some one refused to believe in him is rediculous. The only person that has power over God is God himself. God has the potential to perform certian acts that would not allow him to be God. But since he is God, he would never possibly consider to do those things at all. (I know, confussing).
For the mormon docrtine of Heavenly father's children existing in a prexistance... I'll just quote my other post I refrenced to you....
Keep in mind, this was posted in a different thread and I was trying to use it to emphasise somthing imparticular.
'Lets suppose something...
God is up in heaven with his spirit children before the Earth was created. He presents a plan by which all his children can recieve a physical body and develop even further spiritualy. But in order for them to develop further, they need to prove their worth as a child of God. So, a testing ground is needed. An environment in which his children can be subjected to the perils of temptation and prove their worth by using the God given gift of agency. However, this cannot be done in heaven.
God continues to say that in order for everyone to return to live in heaven after they are tested, justice and Mercy must be granted unto all. Justice is demanded since no unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of God. If a child is blemmished with sin, then they cannot return to live with Heavenly Father (God). So Mercy is required to be bestowed upon all that sin and desire to return to heaven. Someone will need to take all the punishment and let it be bestowed upon himself and not the children of God if Justice and Mercy are to be both satisfied. This is the role that the savior plays in our lives.
However, another plan was put forth before God. This plan came from Lucifer, the morning star and the second born of God. He said, 'Why does there need to be a savior at all? Why can't we all just be forced to live the gospel perfectly down on Earth so that we all can come back to heaven with what we gained on Earth? No one need be punnished!'
This plan threw the heavens into an uproar. Lucifer, standing by his idea, had tried to destroy the God given Gift of Agency. So enticing was his plan, one third of the hosts of heaven used their agency to side with Lucifer and try to destroy it. However, the rest of the hosts of heaven sided with God and the savior, so that they might keep their most precious gift and be tested.
Since Lucifer had tried to destroy God's gift of agency, he and all his minnions were cast out of heaven. In his bitter anguish for being cast out from the home he had lived in forever, he swore never to let any of those that sided with God to return to his presence. He became Satan.
This was necesary... In order for his children to be tested, a world that was imperfect was needed. However, if God created anything imperfect, he would cease to be God. So, he created the Earth and on it the garden of Eden. There he placed Adam and Eve and commanded them to populate the earth. He then let Satan tempt Eve into eating the forbiden fruit. She did and sin and death were introduced to the world. Justice was demanded, and Eve was banished from the Garden, but Adam had been commanded to look after and care for Eve by God, so he partook of the fruit so that he could follow after her and help populate the Earth. All this provided Earth as a testing ground for all us to be tested on.
So in essance, agency (free will) is the one thing that matters in this life. By using it wisely we can prove our worth to God, and through the savior's attonement be able to return to heaven.
By this plan, both Mercy and Justice would be granted unto all those that required it.
Agency is our greatest gift....
At least, that's what I believe.....'
We refer to this as the war in heaven mentioned about in Revelations and elsewhere.
If one visits thier local Mormon meeting house, they may be shocked that a church with the name, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, doesn't have hardly any crosses in thier biuldings. It's true. Instead of dwelling on the fact that Jesus died for us, we dwell more on the example that Jesus set for us and told us to abide by... Of course, the crussifiction a vital part of of the plan of salvation, but it is truly the attonment and resurection that matters. By dieing, Jesus was then ressurected. This resurection will be granted unto all those that went down to earth to recieve a physical body (1 Cor. 15: 20-22). Through this, death is conquered is no longer the prick in our side. Immortality will be granted to everyone...
Next comes the attonment. We believe that Jesus went into the garden of Gethsemany and there took upon himself all the sins of the world. It is here that enternal life is not granted unto all. It is through Grace that we are saved. We can only achieve that grace if we accept Jesus Christ as our savior and repent of our sins. It is only those that reject Jesus Christ in his glory that will be cast out into hell. All the others will be placed in the three kingdoms of glory according to their lives that they lived on earth (1 Cor. 15: 40-42).
The Book of Mormon does state that God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are all one. We interpret that as one in purpouse and intention. "For behold this is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of Man" (Moses 1: 39)
I would like to see the BM reference that says that, since I can think of two right off the bat that says God has a body of Flesh and bones. (The story of the Brother of Jarod is one of them). We can discuss it later when you find it...
I have never heard of the Mormon church stating that Hell is not eternal. There may be some references of spirit prison being called a temporal hell in which spirits are left to brood over their sins in as they wait for their covenants to be performed down on earth. But to the extent of my knowledge, damnation is a one way trip that never ends.
The book of Mormon states that it is good to have one wife, I agree. But for certian times in church history, sactrifices needed to be made. When the Mormon church was making it way accross the plains as they fled from religious persecution and extermination orders, the journey was unforgiving. Hundreds of men died. This lack of men left a predicament for those that desired the highest level of exaltation in the highest kingdom, the Celestial kingdom. Since the ordinance of marriage is required to make it into the highest degree of exaltation, men took on several wives so that they wouldn't be denied that degree just due to a lack of men. This practice continued untill the church saw no need for it anymore and discontinued it over one hundred years ago.
I hope all that wasn't too painful, I just hope that the Mormon church is not being disrepresented in your minds as you go about your daily lives.
... Anything else... (I think my fingers are starting to bleed... )
I have not left my seat or spoken to anyone else since I got home, read your people's replies, and posted this message. (for you em200727
)for Dilettante:
I'm sorry, but for any referances that orriginate after all the original apostles of Christ were killed off, I won't be going for. I believe in the great apostasy as mentioned in Thesalonians 2: 1-3. I believe it happened from the time in which the apostles were killed to the time at which Joseph Smith saw the first vision, as mentioned in Revelations 14: 6-7 (angel Moroni).
I'm sorry, Moses writing the book of Genesis was aparently pulled from the back of my recolection. Who wrote Genesis after all?
There may be a large amount of metaphorical, not literal, content in the bible, and the creation of Earth in six days may be one of them, but I hope you don't consider the immpossible feat of stuffing two of every species of animal into a large wooden boat to be metaphorical...
Joseph Smith, using revelation from God, proof read the King James version of the bible and made any nesesary corrections in an attempt to return its text back as close as possible to its orriginal meaning.
With every belief you have, a risk must be taken (sorry for ill choice of wording). A risk that you might be wrong and others are right as opposed too: you and God being right, and everyone else being wrong.
And lastly, the anti-litterature aproach is marely a personal decission (almost everything is in the Mormon church: but you must be held accountable for your actions). I myself (16) have chosen to read several different things denouncing mormonism.
For em200727:
The Mormon belief of many Gods is marely speculation and not pure doctrine... It comes from the belief that we all can strive to become God like beings in the afterlife after proving ourselves worthy so that we may further develope spiritualy (see Tycho23's last post of the 'will vs. Hell' in the philosophy area). The speculation that God was once a man and worked his way up to Godhood is also comes from this belief. However, this speculation has no bearing on our lives whatsoever... If God was a normal man durring some period of his existance (which is all eternity), then that period existed before this universe was created. Therefore, that knowledge cannot possible influence the plan of salvation. You may care to dissagree, but God's existance before he created the univerxe does not matter for his children (us). The belief of many Gods has no bearing in this way as well. The speculation that there were other normal men/women that grew to become gods/goddeses has no consequence on us in of that they do not exist inside this universe. They have their own universes in which they can rule, not in God's universe. God is the master of this universe. Since they did not create this universe there is no reason or cause to worship these speculated gods. They have no bearing on us whatsoever, so they might as well not exist. Yet all of this is complete speculation on the part of those that feel they know what they are talking about.
We believe that God is completly all-knowing. He knows what is happening in the middle of the Earth, he knows what an atom looks like, he knows how to make people fly, and he knows every thought and secret that you try to hide within your heart. He is your heavenly father.
He created all things. There is no beggining or end to God, nor to any of us. Just like God's spirit, there is no beggining for ourspirits and there is no end.
(Speculation) We believe that our spirits are immortal entities that were created through the union of our Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. If we were to be created by just one being, it would go aginst everything that the bible teaches us about procreation and parenting. The reason that there is no mention of our Heavenly Mother, is God so loved his wife that he could not bear to have her subject to the same pain and aggony that God endures everytime one of his children rejects him. In time, we will all, hopefully, reunite with our Heavenly Mother.
As for God to stop being God just because some one refused to believe in him is rediculous. The only person that has power over God is God himself. God has the potential to perform certian acts that would not allow him to be God. But since he is God, he would never possibly consider to do those things at all. (I know, confussing).
For the mormon docrtine of Heavenly father's children existing in a prexistance... I'll just quote my other post I refrenced to you....
Keep in mind, this was posted in a different thread and I was trying to use it to emphasise somthing imparticular.
'Lets suppose something...
God is up in heaven with his spirit children before the Earth was created. He presents a plan by which all his children can recieve a physical body and develop even further spiritualy. But in order for them to develop further, they need to prove their worth as a child of God. So, a testing ground is needed. An environment in which his children can be subjected to the perils of temptation and prove their worth by using the God given gift of agency. However, this cannot be done in heaven.
God continues to say that in order for everyone to return to live in heaven after they are tested, justice and Mercy must be granted unto all. Justice is demanded since no unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of God. If a child is blemmished with sin, then they cannot return to live with Heavenly Father (God). So Mercy is required to be bestowed upon all that sin and desire to return to heaven. Someone will need to take all the punishment and let it be bestowed upon himself and not the children of God if Justice and Mercy are to be both satisfied. This is the role that the savior plays in our lives.
However, another plan was put forth before God. This plan came from Lucifer, the morning star and the second born of God. He said, 'Why does there need to be a savior at all? Why can't we all just be forced to live the gospel perfectly down on Earth so that we all can come back to heaven with what we gained on Earth? No one need be punnished!'
This plan threw the heavens into an uproar. Lucifer, standing by his idea, had tried to destroy the God given Gift of Agency. So enticing was his plan, one third of the hosts of heaven used their agency to side with Lucifer and try to destroy it. However, the rest of the hosts of heaven sided with God and the savior, so that they might keep their most precious gift and be tested.
Since Lucifer had tried to destroy God's gift of agency, he and all his minnions were cast out of heaven. In his bitter anguish for being cast out from the home he had lived in forever, he swore never to let any of those that sided with God to return to his presence. He became Satan.
This was necesary... In order for his children to be tested, a world that was imperfect was needed. However, if God created anything imperfect, he would cease to be God. So, he created the Earth and on it the garden of Eden. There he placed Adam and Eve and commanded them to populate the earth. He then let Satan tempt Eve into eating the forbiden fruit. She did and sin and death were introduced to the world. Justice was demanded, and Eve was banished from the Garden, but Adam had been commanded to look after and care for Eve by God, so he partook of the fruit so that he could follow after her and help populate the Earth. All this provided Earth as a testing ground for all us to be tested on.
So in essance, agency (free will) is the one thing that matters in this life. By using it wisely we can prove our worth to God, and through the savior's attonement be able to return to heaven.
By this plan, both Mercy and Justice would be granted unto all those that required it.
Agency is our greatest gift....
At least, that's what I believe.....'
We refer to this as the war in heaven mentioned about in Revelations and elsewhere.
If one visits thier local Mormon meeting house, they may be shocked that a church with the name, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, doesn't have hardly any crosses in thier biuldings. It's true. Instead of dwelling on the fact that Jesus died for us, we dwell more on the example that Jesus set for us and told us to abide by... Of course, the crussifiction a vital part of of the plan of salvation, but it is truly the attonment and resurection that matters. By dieing, Jesus was then ressurected. This resurection will be granted unto all those that went down to earth to recieve a physical body (1 Cor. 15: 20-22). Through this, death is conquered is no longer the prick in our side. Immortality will be granted to everyone...
Next comes the attonment. We believe that Jesus went into the garden of Gethsemany and there took upon himself all the sins of the world. It is here that enternal life is not granted unto all. It is through Grace that we are saved. We can only achieve that grace if we accept Jesus Christ as our savior and repent of our sins. It is only those that reject Jesus Christ in his glory that will be cast out into hell. All the others will be placed in the three kingdoms of glory according to their lives that they lived on earth (1 Cor. 15: 40-42).
The Book of Mormon does state that God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are all one. We interpret that as one in purpouse and intention. "For behold this is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of Man" (Moses 1: 39)
I would like to see the BM reference that says that, since I can think of two right off the bat that says God has a body of Flesh and bones. (The story of the Brother of Jarod is one of them). We can discuss it later when you find it...
I have never heard of the Mormon church stating that Hell is not eternal. There may be some references of spirit prison being called a temporal hell in which spirits are left to brood over their sins in as they wait for their covenants to be performed down on earth. But to the extent of my knowledge, damnation is a one way trip that never ends.
The book of Mormon states that it is good to have one wife, I agree. But for certian times in church history, sactrifices needed to be made. When the Mormon church was making it way accross the plains as they fled from religious persecution and extermination orders, the journey was unforgiving. Hundreds of men died. This lack of men left a predicament for those that desired the highest level of exaltation in the highest kingdom, the Celestial kingdom. Since the ordinance of marriage is required to make it into the highest degree of exaltation, men took on several wives so that they wouldn't be denied that degree just due to a lack of men. This practice continued untill the church saw no need for it anymore and discontinued it over one hundred years ago.
I hope all that wasn't too painful, I just hope that the Mormon church is not being disrepresented in your minds as you go about your daily lives.
... Anything else... (I think my fingers are starting to bleed...
)
Last edited by Tycho23 on Mon May 23, 2005 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Post #30
I have a somewhat simple question.
Why do you believe Joseph Smith to be a prophet?
Why was the book of mormon changed so many times, and the actual content altered if it was the inspired words of God? A different translation cannot be used as an excuse, as Joseph Smith was the only one to ever translate (or even see) the plates, was he not?
Why do you believe Joseph Smith to be a prophet?
Why was the book of mormon changed so many times, and the actual content altered if it was the inspired words of God? A different translation cannot be used as an excuse, as Joseph Smith was the only one to ever translate (or even see) the plates, was he not?
