The Boy Scouts Pledge - Can an atheist serve?

[realthinker]

I am a Cub Scout den leader for a pack affiliated with a local public elementary school. This statement from the by-laws of the Boy Scouts of America was the final topic in a leadership training I took part in last weekend.

The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God.

Here are a couple of related thoughts from the BSA regarding religion.

Only persons willing to subscribe to this Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of membership.

Declaration of Religious Principle, Bylaws of Boy Scouts of America, art. IX, 1, cl. 1

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law. The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

This is the email note I sent our Cubmaster.

Dear XXXXX,

After the discussion of our final topic in last weekend's outdoor leader's training I feel I need to say something before it becomes a public topic for discussion on an awkward occasion. The official position of the BSA is that "The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God." While it is a position I can support in order to maintain my association with the BSA, it is not a position I believe. In fact, I and my family believe that there is not a God that intercedes in our lives. We do not practice religion.

We do believe, however, in a strong community and in contributing in a positive and active fashion to the lives of children to build our community. We believe in being supportive to the parents and families of our community so that they might be successful in fulfilling their family obligations to the community, including their religious obligations. We believe that involvement in community activities and organizations is our duty and that it is our service that earns our place as neighbors.

You have my commitment to the organization, which includes my commitment to fulfill my duties with regard to the religious fulfillment of our scouts and their families. I feel that while my religious beliefs and participation may not be according to the organization's expectations, this is not in conflict with my expected duties as a den leader. I am committed to ensuring that every scout whom I deal with finds complete fulfillment of the scouting experience, and that scouting leadership finds no fault in my support.

Should you, as pack Cubmaster, feel otherwise and find my position incompatible with your exercise of scouting rules, I will quietly defer to your judgment. To do so would be contrary to my beliefs, to my support of friends and the families of my community.

I await your considerate reply. If you would like to discuss, please feel free to call.

With best regards,

I am clearly serving in contradiction to the BSA by-laws. My son, likewise, is clearly not eligible for membership. However, we both participate and have had no indication that there is any incompatibility with our local organization and its members. As I portrayed in my note, I feel my service is in no way compromised. I feel I am in no way undermining the organization or the families I work with.

What is your opinion of this situation? Do you feel that my religious position should be grounds for my removal as den leader? Do you feel it should be grounds for the exclusion of my son from Cub Scouts?

[Eph]

Bio-logical wrote:

The argument you make is basically the same as saying you wouldn't trust a straight man to babysit your female children because they are attracted to female adults. I find my wife very attractive (I even did when she was underage!) but now that we are no longer sophomores in high school and my little sister is, I don't get the urge to leave my wife for my sister's friends that come over.

Do you think it would be appropriate to sleep alone in the same tent as your sister's friends? Do you think her parent's would approve, or your wife for that matter? This may seem a silly argument - but it is a reality and, to me, the crux of the boy scout dillemma.

The babysitter argument does not hold water. First off, if I actually hired a man to babysit my daughter, I'd be wondering why a grown man wants to babysit my daughter in the first place - and no, I would not allow that, unless it was someone that I knew very very well. Boy Scouts are beyond babysitting age, generally between 12 and 18, young adults.

The scenario and intent that I posed in my original post, was would I want a gay man to sleep in the same small tent as my boy scout son - who may actually be at or beyond puberty and be fully grown. It is the same question as - would I allow a straight man to sleep in a small tent with my teenage daughter? Would you?

No, I don't call my belief homophobia, I call it being a good and responsible parent. It is common sense.

People are attracted, more or less, to people their own age and claiming otherwise is ismply disguised and rationalized bigotry

Really? Is that why just about every divorced celebrity or anyone rich enough (or, shallow enough) eventually dates or weds someone much younger (I could give you dozens of examples)? We live in a sex-charged society - just turn on the TV or look at how big the pornography business is. I am not saying it is right, just that it is a reflection of the times in which we live.

[Eph]

I personally was a scout for about 3 weeks once, so I never got to know anything about the program really, but I would have trouble putting my children through a program that encourages such bigoted attitudes.

Sorry, went back and re-read your post and saw that sentence. From 8 to 18 (cub scouts to boy scouts) I was in the program and eventually earned my Eagle. While other kids may have been playing video games, watching TV, hanging out with friends (which I also did) or who knows what, I was also learning about things such as first aid, emergency prepareness, civic responsibility, government, service to others, wilderness survival, physical fitness, etc - many of which prepared me for the real world in ways that school could not.

Scouting is the only program that I know of that prepares young men in such a way - these are the core values that I am talking about, and, if you don't want your kids to learn them in the boy scouts, good luck finding another group that teaches it.

I cannot think of a single instance where sexual orientation was even discussed in all my years of scouting. I challenge you to actually investigate what the program does teach instead of what it does not before making such a blanket remark.

[Gonzo]

Since when do scoutmasters sleep in the same tents as the scouts?

[Goat]

I personally was a scout for about 3 weeks once, so I never got to know anything about the program really, but I would have trouble putting my children through a program that encourages such bigoted attitudes.

Sorry, went back and re-read your post and saw that sentence. From 8 to 18 (cub scouts to boy scouts) I was in the program and eventually earned my Eagle. While other kids may have been playing video games, watching TV, hanging out with friends (which I also did) or who knows what, I was also learning about things such as first aid, emergency prepareness, civic responsibility, government, service to others, wilderness survival, physical fitness, etc - many of which prepared me for the real world in ways that school could not.

Scouting is the only program that I know of that prepares young men in such a way - these are the core values that I am talking about, and, if you don't want your kids to learn them in the boy scouts, good luck finding another group that teaches it.

I cannot think of a single instance where sexual orientation was even discussed in all my years of scouting. I challenge you to actually investigate what the program does teach instead of what it does not before making such a blanket remark.

The fact that they will strip someone of their eagle scout rank because they are gay is enough of a statement. They have their right to do so, but, I personally will refuse to give to them, nor any charity that supports them. Nor should they get special privs to use national parks anymore.

[Eph]

The fact that they will strip someone of their eagle scout rank because they are gay is enough of a statement. They have their right to do so, but, I personally will refuse to give to them, nor any charity that supports them. Nor should they get special privs to use national parks anymore.

Should I believe this based on, you said it so it must be true?

Who was stripped of their eagle scout rank? How many total in the history of Boy Scouts have ever been stripped of their Eagle Rank? (source please). Were they stripped just because they were gay, or for some other reason?

[Goat]

The fact that they will strip someone of their eagle scout rank because they are gay is enough of a statement. They have their right to do so, but, I personally will refuse to give to them, nor any charity that supports them. Nor should they get special privs to use national parks anymore.

Should I believe this based on, you said it so it must be true?

Who was stripped of their eagle scout rank? How many total in the history of Boy Scouts have ever been stripped of their Eagle Rank? (source please). Were they stripped just because they were gay, or for some other reason?

It's my judgment, and it is the judgment of many others. When that particular law suit went through the supreme court, all the local charities that gave to a number of groups dropped the boy scouts from their list of people to give money to.

A number of people who used to give to them generously stopped doing so.

And, the local parks, which gave camping space to the Boy scouts for free, put them on the same level as any other organization.

It's their right to promote bigotry, and it is the right of people to react with that by with holding donations.

[Eph]

The fact that they will strip someone of their eagle scout rank because they are gay is enough of a statement. They have their right to do so, but, I personally will refuse to give to them, nor any charity that supports them. Nor should they get special privs to use national parks anymore.

Should I believe this based on, you said it so it must be true?

Who was stripped of their eagle scout rank? How many total in the history of Boy Scouts have ever been stripped of their Eagle Rank? (source please). Were they stripped just because they were gay, or for some other reason?

It's my judgment, and it is the judgment of many others. When that particular law suit went through the supreme court, all the local charities that gave to a number of groups dropped the boy scouts from their list of people to give money to.

A number of people who used to give to them generously stopped doing so.

And, the local parks, which gave camping space to the Boy scouts for free, put them on the same level as any other organization.

It's their right to promote bigotry, and it is the right of people to react with that by with holding donations.

Thanks Goat - I'll take that to mean...you can't back up your statement. Just say so, makes me feel better about you as a senior member of this board. By the way, only 9 people have ever had their rank taken, and I doubt any were for being gay. At least according to http://www.ask.com/bar?q=has+anyone+eve ... temid%3D28 I am a fan of using support, unless stating an opinion.

As an active participant in the Boy Scouts, I was never exposed to bigotry - or homosexuality, or asexuality, or heterosexuality - and, I doubt kids are these days either (which is refreshing based on the current sexually charged environment in our society).

Now for my blanket, unsupported, opinionated comment...my experience is that usually the biggest biggots of all are those who call others biggots. In other words, think like I think or else you are a biggot. Activists probably will not be satisified until all the kids in elementary school through high school learn about sex, choose a sexual orientation and become advocates for sexual awareness. Because if they don't, they and their parents will be branded biggots. The Nazis used similar tactics in the beginning, based much on Darwinian principals. After all, shame on them for having a conservative view about children and sex [sarcasm].

By the way, I have gay friends, and they do not think I am a biggot at all - some of them even agree with me. In my world, it is okay to disagree, even on the topic of gay scout leaders. It's even okay in my world to have gay friends.

I'd just point out that if you want your teenage boys to be exposed to something out-of-the-ordinary that builds character and civic responsibility, then look no further than the Boy Scouts, a group that teaches about everything except sex. You do whatever you think is best for your kids, putting them in front of the internet, tv or otherwise. I'll take my chances and put my kids in scouts - a historically proven system of leadership, and I will wait for them to thank me later.

[Goat]

I'd just point out that if you want your teenage boys to be exposed to something out-of-the-ordinary that builds character and civic responsibility, then look no further than the Boy Scouts, a group that teaches about everything except sex. You do whatever you think is best for your kids, putting them in front of the internet, tv or otherwise. I'll take my chances and put my kids in scouts - a historically proven system of leadership, and I will wait for them to thank me later.

http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/ ... apers.html

Pardon, they only revoked the membership of a gay eagle scout.

Still bigotry.. Still not a value I want to install in children. It is hateful and ignorent

[Bio-logical]

Bio-logical wrote:

The argument you make is basically the same as saying you wouldn't trust a straight man to babysit your female children because they are attracted to female adults. I find my wife very attractive (I even did when she was underage!) but now that we are no longer sophomores in high school and my little sister is, I don't get the urge to leave my wife for my sister's friends that come over.

Do you think it would be appropriate to sleep alone in the same tent as your sister's friends? Do you think her parent's would approve, or your wife for that matter? This may seem a silly argument - but it is a reality and, to me, the crux of the boy scout dillemma.

The babysitter argument does not hold water. First off, if I actually hired a man to babysit my daughter, I'd be wondering why a grown man wants to babysit my daughter in the first place - and no, I would not allow that, unless it was someone that I knew very very well. Boy Scouts are beyond babysitting age, generally between 12 and 18, young adults.

The scenario and intent that I posed in my original post, was would I want a gay man to sleep in the same small tent as my boy scout son - who may actually be at or beyond puberty and be fully grown. It is the same question as - would I allow a straight man to sleep in a small tent with my teenage daughter? Would you?

No, I don't call my belief homophobia, I call it being a good and responsible parent. It is common sense.

How often do scout leaders sleep one on one alone in a tent with any of the boys? You asked if I or my wife would think it appropriate for me to do the same with one of my sister's friends, but honestly I find it irresponsible parenting to allow any adult person to sleep alone with a teenage regardless of gender of either party. Do I, o the other hand, think it innappropriate if I sleep in a tent with my sister and a few of her friends as a chaperone? Absolutely, as long as I allow them the proper privacy while dressing.

The argument against allowing a gay man to be in said situation is missing the point that straight men are just as if not more dangerous than gays, so pinning the blame on homosexuals is where your views become homophobia instead of responsible parenting.

People are attracted, more or less, to people their own age and claiming otherwise is ismply disguised and rationalized bigotry

Really? Is that why just about every divorced celebrity or anyone rich enough (or, shallow enough) eventually dates or weds someone much younger (I could give you dozens of examples)? We live in a sex-charged society - just turn on the TV or look at how big the pornography business is. I am not saying it is right, just that it is a reflection of the times in which we live.

For every example you give me of situations with couples of very different age, I can give you a hundred where the couple is within a few years, that is the point.

[Artheos]

I am a Cub Scout den leader for a pack affiliated with a local public elementary school. This statement from the by-laws of the Boy Scouts of America was the final topic in a leadership training I took part in last weekend.

I am clearly serving in contradiction to the BSA by-laws. My son, likewise, is clearly not eligible for membership. However, we both participate and have had no indication that there is any incompatibility with our local organization and its members. As I portrayed in my note, I feel my service is in no way compromised. I feel I am in no way undermining the organization or the families I work with.

What is your opinion of this situation? Do you feel that my religious position should be grounds for my removal as den leader? Do you feel it should be grounds for the exclusion of my son from Cub Scouts?

I don't believe you are asking the right question.

The real question is whether or not, with integrity, you can be a member of an organization that you don't agree with a core principle on.

http://issuu.com/worldscouting/docs/con ... ayout=grey

The first principle listed under Article II Principles is Duty to God.

Given that fact, it can hardly be said to be ancillary, it appears to be core. This is further covered in the Scout Promise.

Those who avoid scouting because they disagree are consistent.

I agree that you are serving in contradiction as you've said, but it appears it is not just the by-laws, but also the core principles.

Are you and your son repeating the Scout Promise frequently? And if so, is that the right thing to be doing?