Wife-beating justified by Bible?

[PeaceWolf]

I was browsing around Google the other day, as I tend to do while procrastinating from homework =), and I came across this forum:
http://www.landoverbaptist.net/forumdisplay.php?f=24

Yes, clearly marked MEN ONLY, and probably for a good reason! There were threads where men talked about giving their wives black eyes and nosebleeds for failing to clean the dishes or for burning their filet mignon. And they said the Bible justified beating your wife to 'keep her in line' and to 'punish her for her sins.' They claimed they beat their wives out of love, to save them from hell. They even claimed that it's their DUTY as men to beat women into place.

Where, specifically, in the Bible does it instruct men to physically hurt their wives? I'm aware of the suspected sexist passages, where it claims that women should submit to their husbands, but how does wife-beating play into this, especially with "Love thy neighbor as yourself"?

Sorry if I seemed overly angry, but really, I was appalled. And anyone who stepped in for the women were told to toughen up and be men, and the girls who argued were called witches. Is this even morally right, or am I dealing with the loony-toons here?

[thepuppettheatre]

Oh...well, this is awkward then....


Sorry for wasting your time.

My blond moments are becoming more frequent. I should have known from the "guaranteeing salvation since 1620" on top...

Don't worry.. often, the satires of the religious right fundamentalists are indistinguishable from the real thing.

So, wait, then I can't beat my wife with divine permission?

Damnit!

I need to go back and find it, but I was sitting in the dentist office a year or so ago and there was a Bible sitting next to me. Because I am morbid like that, I picked it up and thumbed through it. It was near impossible to read but I stumbled across a passage where it described what you should do if your mother behaves like a whore.

Have you guys seen it? I would never be able to find it again... it was black comedy gold. You're supposed to send her out into the wild to get eaten by the wolves!! That rules, I too want to be a psychotic douche.

[Elvis Trout]

I don't know about wife-beating but somewhere it definitely says about selling your daughters into slavery if your hard up, and stoning you children if they're disobedient. I could get the bible verses but that would mean watching a WHOLE episode of Penn and Teller, I don't really have the stamina this time of night. But don't worry I'll post a link so that you can do the hard work if you have some weird morality you want to justify biblically. Or have just sold a child.

[cnorman18]

A basic principle of Torah study, taught to me directly by my rabbi, is this:

"If you see something in the Torah that you absolutely know to be wrong, there are two possibilities: either you are not reading the Torah properly, or the Torah is in error."

Notice that the third possibility, to which fundamentalists rather often resort, was not listed - that of overruling your own common sense and moral judgment in favor of religious dogma.

Doesn't seem like rocket science to me.

[Goat]

A basic principle of Torah study, taught to me directly by my rabbi, is this:

"If you see something in the Torah that you absolutely know to be wrong, there are two possibilities: either you are not reading the Torah properly, or the Torah is in error."

Notice that the third possibility, to which fundamentalists rather often resort, was not listed - that of overruling your own common sense and moral judgment in favor of religious dogma.

Doesn't seem like rocket science to me.

It seems to me there is a lot of exaggeration and 'performance utterances' to try to drive in a point, basically saying 'this is what the author thinks is really important'.

[cnorman18]

A basic principle of Torah study, taught to me directly by my rabbi, is this:

"If you see something in the Torah that you absolutely know to be wrong, there are two possibilities: either you are not reading the Torah properly, or the Torah is in error."

Notice that the third possibility, to which fundamentalists rather often resort, was not listed - that of overruling your own common sense and moral judgment in favor of religious dogma.

Doesn't seem like rocket science to me.

It seems to me there is a lot of exaggeration and 'performance utterances' to try to drive in a point, basically saying 'this is what the author thinks is really important'.

Of course; which is why a simplistic surface reading can lead one down some incredibly blind and counterproductive alleys.

[Bio-logical]

Actually there are MANY verses in Bible that state against the ten commandments, and many of them are allowing abuse of women.

Can you give examples, please?

Of course, I will. I have to go now, I just checked any messages. I'll edit this post later and add examples.

I gather that those "MANY verses" turned out to be hard to find.

The first I found refer to how women are subjects to men in marriage and that they should submit to them in every way.

Ephesians 5:22-24
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Colossians 3:18
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

1 Timothy 2:11-15
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing.

1 Peter 3:1
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands

.

This couple with the way that god recommends treating other subjects who disobey creates an interesting juxtaposition

1 Peter 2:18
Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

Ephesians 6:5
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ.

Exodus 21:7
If a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant....

Exodus 21:20-21
And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money

you can also throw in a few about how physical abuse can be good for you...

Proverbs 20:30 The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.

Proverbs 18:6 A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes.

and a few that recommend beating your children

Proverbs 13:24 that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Proverbs 19:18 Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.

Just to name a few, I could easily see how one cold interpret that bible at saying it is not only okay, but necessary to beat your wife, since it is obviously a man's duty to beat everybody else

[cnorman18]

Actually there are MANY verses in Bible that state against the ten commandments, and many of them are allowing abuse of women.

Can you give examples, please?

Of course, I will. I have to go now, I just checked any messages. I'll edit this post later and add examples.

I gather that those "MANY verses" turned out to be hard to find.

The first I found refer to how women are subjects to men in marriage and that they should submit to them in every way.

Ephesians 5:22-24
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Colossians 3:18
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

1 Timothy 2:11-15
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing.

1 Peter 3:1
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands

.

This couple with the way that god recommends treating other subjects who disobey creates an interesting juxtaposition

1 Peter 2:18
Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

Ephesians 6:5
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ.

Exodus 21:7
If a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant....

Exodus 21:20-21
And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money

you can also throw in a few about how physical abuse can be good for you...

Proverbs 20:30 The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.

Proverbs 18:6 A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes.

and a few that recommend beating your children

Proverbs 13:24 that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Proverbs 19:18 Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.

Just to name a few, I could easily see how one cold interpret that bible at saying it is not only okay, but necessary to beat your wife, since it is obviously a man's duty to beat everybody else

I am aware of how one may go through a few slightly convoluted steps to make the case here, and that has of course been done in order to justify the corporal punishment of children, etc.; whether it can with anything like intellectual integrity be used to justify undisputed abuse is another question. But I concede the point anyway. Some find justification in Scripture for massacres; I don't dispute that some may as easily find justification for slapping the wife around, as if anything, including Scripture, justifies such things.

In any case, my interest was more in the primary claim above, that "there are MANY verses in Bible that state against the ten commandments." That, I have yet to see.

[Bio-logical]

I am aware of how one may go through a few slightly convoluted steps to make the case here, and that has of course been done in order to justify the corporal punishment of children, etc.;

I am pretty sure there was a single scripture in there that justified the corporal punishment of children, no convolution necessary.

whether it can with anything like intellectual integrity be used to justify undisputed abuse is another question. But I concede the point anyway. Some find justification in Scripture for massacres; I don't dispute that some may as easily find justification for slapping the wife around, as if anything, including Scripture, justifies such things.

I find it hard to intellectually justify any part of dogmatic belief with any integrity, but that is a side point. The point I was making here is that the bible most definitely condones violence against subordinates and children and places the wife in the category of subordinates. I find it difficult to accept that anybody would think that the bible is a moral document considering all of the things our culture now finds absolutely unacceptable that are not only allowed but often demanded in the bible.

In any case, my interest was more in the primary claim above, that "there are MANY verses in Bible that state against the ten commandments." That, I have yet to see.

You are aware that the entire New testament is meant to undo the damage to the human soul done by the mosaic laws of the old testament and the ten commandments. Jesus claimed to be dying to fulfill the covenant so that mortal and imperfect men are no longer bound to it and he left humanity with only 2 commandments:

Matthew 22: 36-40

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

In doing so, Jesus not only deleted all of the old commandments but replaced every part of the mosaic law with 2 simple rules. So my question to you - Why was this necessary?

If not entirely self evident, the reason he needed to do that is because the mosaic law was so contradictory and convoluted that no human could follow it.

For a specific example of the ten commandments being contradicted, lets talk about the seventh commandment, adultery

Adultery = bad
Exodus 20:14, Deuteronomy 5:18
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Hebrews 13:4
Whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Adultery = okay
Numbers 31:18
But all the women children that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Hosea 1:2
And the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms....
Hosea 3:1
Then said the Lord unto me, God yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress

Then of course there is arguable the most important commandment of those not pertaining to worshiping God (which account for half of them mind you) - The Sixth Commandment

Killing = bad
Exodus 20:13, Deuteronomy 5:17
Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 23:7
The innocent and righteous slay thou not.
Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20
Do not kill.
Matthew 19:18
Thou shalt do no murder.

Killing = required by God
Exodus 32:27
Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side ... and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.
Numbers 15:35
And the Lord said unto Moses, The man [who was found picking up sticks on the sabbath] shall be surely put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones.
1 Samuel 15:2-3
Thus saith the Lord of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare him not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

I hope that satisfies you because these take some time to dig up, even with the internet.
[/i]

[kayky]

I just visited the site referred to in the OP. Am I the only one who thinks it's some kind of joke or parody?

[Carico]

I was browsing around Google the other day, as I tend to do while procrastinating from homework =), and I came across this forum:
http://www.landoverbaptist.net/forumdisplay.php?f=24

Yes, clearly marked MEN ONLY, and probably for a good reason! There were threads where men talked about giving their wives black eyes and nosebleeds for failing to clean the dishes or for burning their filet mignon. And they said the Bible justified beating your wife to 'keep her in line' and to 'punish her for her sins.' They claimed they beat their wives out of love, to save them from hell. They even claimed that it's their DUTY as men to beat women into place.

Where, specifically, in the Bible does it instruct men to physically hurt their wives? I'm aware of the suspected sexist passages, where it claims that women should submit to their husbands, but how does wife-beating play into this, especially with "Love thy neighbor as yourself"?

Sorry if I seemed overly angry, but really, I was appalled. And anyone who stepped in for the women were told to toughen up and be men, and the girls who argued were called witches. Is this even morally right, or am I dealing with the loony-toons here?

There is no verse saying that. That's why we are to read the bible for ourselves so we can differentiate true teachers from false ones like the neo-Nazis who claim to be Christians yet hate the Jews, of whom Jesus was one.